Question: Why are we torturing our own service people?

[Skidmore]

I keep hearing that these methods are not torture because we use them on our own troops as part of training. How does subjecting our troops to TORTURE make them better? How does subjecting them to abuse beforehand make them better able to withstand more abuse? Traumatizing someone injures them psychically. If, as ordinary citizens, any one of us were to commit these acts against anyone else, we would be imprisoned. If any of these actions were to be committed against anyone of us, we would be followed for a period of time by psychiatrists, therapists, or physicians? Why is it okay for our government to subject our troops to abuse?

[Skidmore]

1. Is there any evidence that subjecting our troops to these horrendous tortures

makes them better able to serve their nation? Is there any evidence that psychologically and physically harming them does this?

[Skidmore]

2. And what makes it fucking morally okay for us to do this to our own, let alone another

people?

Riddle me that. Hello? Joker, are you out there?

[Occam Bandage]

5. The fact that every single person there is a volunteer and not a conscipt?

[asteroid2003QQ47]

8. ALL are potential collateral damage to a war mongering empire...

whether "our own" or "another" people and, as Phil said, it really doesn't matter
to anybody except a small circle of friends.
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"Everyone is equal in my eye"
--Boris the hangman in "Blazing Saddles"

[empyreanisles]

3. Because some of our enemies don't have the same human rights

...standards as we do.

So our elite soldiers have to be trained on how to resist and endure oppressive detentions until they can be rescued/released in some way.

[Occam Bandage]

4. Because it isn't torture when we do it to Americans. And that's not snark.

The torture component of waterboarding is not physical (though it is painful and physically distressing), but rather is psychological. The body believes it is drowning, and that causes great mental trauma. Torture, after all, is primarily about destroying a person's mental ability to resist, and fear of an immediate and painful death is powerful. Many torture methods are not designed to cause lasting physical damage, but rather to cause psychological damage with physical damage as a causative component. SERE attempts to immunize Americans against that psychological damage by training them to resist it in a controlled environment.

Service members are "tortured" as part of their SERE training as a way of demystifying it. They are told what it does, how it works, and that they are safe. The Air Force isn't going to drop millions of dollars on training a pilot and then drown him for fun, after all, and the candidates know it. Since graduates will have experienced the physical aspects of waterboarding, sensory deprivation, and the like those techniques then lose much of their ability to cause trauma.

Fear exists when people are uncertain. A waterboarded prisoner is terrified because he fears he will drown. A SERE graduate knows that he will not drown, and so does not experience the same fear, and thus does not experience the same trauma.

[Skidmore]

6. Torture is torture.

As a person who doesn't swim, I would not do well with waterboarding even if told that it were some sort of temporary discomfort. I nearly drowned once and I would still be fearful and panic.

Does subjecting this form of torture on someone mean that they will never break under real life application of the same methods? Is there evidence of this?

[Occam Bandage]

7. Simplistic statement is simplistic statement.

From what I've heard from people who have been through it, waterboarding does cause initial panic for almost everyone at SERE. And that panic is generally quickly defeated, and replaced with run-of-the-mill endurance of temporary pain and discomfort. That is the purpose: to take an experience people naturally find terrifying, replicate it under controlled and safe conditions, and thus demystify it and remove the terrifying aspect. It's no more torture than it is torture to help a willing person get over their fear of snakes through controlled experiences with exposure to snakes.

I do not have access to any sort of study showing SERE works, or any sort of study showing it doesn't. I only have the conversations I've had with two members of my extended family, and I'm aware the plural of anecdote ain't data. However, supposing it doesn't: wouldn't they notice pretty quickly? Wouldn't they pick up on the fact that trainees display no more mental resistance to interrogation at the end of the program than they do at the beginning?

[asteroid2003QQ47]

9. Does this in any way resemble the "SERE*'" of which you speak,...

so glowingly, Occam Bandage?

"Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times.
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/18/ksm-183-waterboarding/
We practiced sleep deprivation on him for 11 straight days. I don't know how many times we smashed his head against a wall, slapped him in the face, put him in a stress position in a freezing room and/or put him in a coffin sized box in extreme heat. But the right-wing argues that it doesn't matter because none of this is torture. They are adamant in saying that it is not even open to interpretation."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/what-if-khalid-sheikh-moh_b_190385.html

*Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape.
This is a small specialized career field in the US Air Force comprised of approximately 325 enlisted personnel. Air Force SERE Specialists train aircrew members and high risk of capture personnel from all branches of the military. The students are trained in skills which allow them to survive in all climatic conditions as well as how to survive while being held captive.

Civilians

Civilians who meet the qualifications have a chance of entering, and succeeding in SERE Specialist training. To learn more about how you could play a role in the SERE career field, click here.--http://www.gosere.com/civilians.htm

Here's your chance to prove yourself O.B., sign up for SERE training (from your friends) now, then arrange for supporters of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to 'waterboard' you.
Should be a piece of cake and you get to tell us all about it!

[Occam Bandage]

11. I don't particularly want to get a job at SERE, thanks.

Nor do I want to undergo SERE training; the whole thing seems painful and unpleasant, start to finish. As do many things in the military. Which is why I choose to remain a civilian, and do not choose to undergo that training.

Other people do choose to undergo that training, and they make that decision voluntarily. It is, after all, a volunteer military.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

16. The "Economic Draft" does not exist in your comfortable tunnel of reality.

No big surprise there!

http://www.workers.org/us/2005/economic-draft-0303/

Can economic draft be far behind war budget?

By David Hoskins
Published Feb 23, 2005

Bush's proposed 2006 budget has a $2.5-trillion price tag. The cost of this budget places the country in a record $427-billion deficit. ("Budget Analysis," AFSCME) A budget of this size could easily provide for a reorientation of the economy to insure universal womb-to-tomb healthcare and education along with massive investments in infrastructure and job works programs.

Instead, the budget proposal has placed 150 domestic federally funded programs on the chopping block while bolstering spend ing for the Pentagon and Homeland Security. Most of the targeted programs affect the poor and working class communities.

One third of all scheduled cuts come from education programs, for a total reduction of $1.3 billion. These include the total elimination of the Perkins Loan program, which provides college funding for low-income students, and the Even Start family literacy program.

The Bush war budget has already eliminated 300,000 students from Pell Grants and another 700,000 students from after-school programs. Bush has declared a virtual war on students at home as he seeks an additional $82-billion supplemental spending bill to sustain the war of occupation in Iraq.
<>
The Bush proposed cuts lay the basis for accelerating the economic draft. High unem ployment rates coupled with decreased educational opportunities compel young people to look toward the military as a source of education and training.

This creates a situation where working class youth and young people of color are forced into the Army and Reserves out of economic necessity.
<...
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It is not reasonable that those who gamble with men's lives should not pay with their own.
--H. G. Wells

[Occam Bandage]

17. Every single soldier is a volunteer. Not one is forced into the military.

It is true that bad economic conditions make the military more attractive, but that is not the same as forcing people to join the military. An expensive car and smart-fitting clothes can make a man more attractive. So can a lack of other attractive men in a bar. I wouldn't say that anyone who then decides to sleep with him was raped, would you?

Moreover, not everyone in the military goes through this. Only pilots, rangers, special forces, SEALs, and other high-risk-of-capture soldiers are. If you don't want to go through SERE, don't pick a field where you have to go through SERE.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

20. A BETA Civilian Captain America

Monkeys, with electrodes implanted in their brains, have already been taught to use thought-power to do such things as move a robotic arm. But why stop there? A few years back, DARPA scientists succeeded in creating a "ratbot" --a living, breathing rat with electrodes implanted in its brain that could be controlled using a laptop computer. Today, DARPA researchers, not exactly heading up the evolutionary scale but evidently proceeding toward larger sized natural fighting machines, are working on a remote-controlled shark. And how long will it be until some researcher gets the bright idea of a remote-controlled soldier; short-circuiting free will altogether? The technology isn't there yet, but what happens when it is?

DARPA already has all sorts of programs designed to use high-tech means to prevent humans from "becoming the weakest link in the U.S. military."
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1015-30.htm

Occam Bandage, is that you behind the curtain?
----------------------------------------------------------------

Frog and the Sky
There is an argument between a bird who stopped to drank at a well and a frog therein. They were arguing about how the sky looked like. Regarding where they were, they each had a different view. The frog's vision was of course very limited. Therefore, this proverb refers to somebody who has a very narrow-minded and insulated view of what they see or what they think.

[Occam Bandage]

26. The "remote control" they're talking about is crude and silly.

It's nothing more than a tingling feeling on the left or the right, which the rat is trained through manipulation of its reward system to want to follow. We don't need anything like that for humans; humans already follow orders.

A major advantage of a soldier over a remote-controlled robot is that the soldier is capable of thinking and reacting to new situations. If the Pentagon were to want a remote-controlled soldier, they'd simply use a robot or a drone.

I don't see what any of this has to do with the fact that everyone who goes through SERE volunteered to go through SERE.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

28. "Humans already follow orders" and...

Occam Bandage is seemingly prima facie evidence of that.
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If those in charge of our society - politicians, corporate executives, and owners of press and television - can dominate our ideas, they will be secure in their power. They will not need soldiers patrolling the streets. We will control ourselves.
- Howard Zinn

[asteroid2003QQ47]

10. Assuming you will leap at the chance to preserve your credibility....

and submit to both friendly post SERE training and waterboarding administered by unfriendly interrogators who might be unaware that testing the " endurance of temporary pain and discomfort" requires the presence of a "physician with an emergency tracheotomy kit."

I feel duty bound to call this to your attention that you might remind your interrogators of this. Also, it might be prudent to bring your own tracheotomy kit in the event that they do not have one readily available.
Good luck,
bob
--------------

"Thus after waterboarding Zubaydah and KSM 266 times by March 2003, it apparently became clear to the CIA that in the hands of the interrogators working for the CIA, waterboarding was not the "harmless" procedure it was originally described to be. In fact, waterboarding was considered to be so dangerous by the CIA's own doctors, that they mandated a physician with an emergency tracheotomy kit be in the room while the waterboarding took place.
.
Failure to perform a tracheotomy in the presence of airway-obstructing laryngospasm can result in loss of oxygen severe enough to cause brain damage and death. The memos do not indicate whether or not any of the waterboarded detainees required a tracheotomy. However, a heavily censored footnote on page 15 of the "2005 Bradbury Memo" discusses what appears to be a near-death episode that must have happened with Zubaydah or Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the only detainees known to undergo "extensive waterboarding" by the CIA."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/4/24/723455/-They-Added-a-Tracheotomy-Kit-to-the-Torture-Chamber

[TorchTheWitch]

30. You're allowed to opt out at any time

Participating in each method is strictly voluntary and any individual can opt out of each one at any time.

No, it doesn't mean they'll never break under a real life hostile situation. What it does do is give them mental and physical preparedness to hopefully withstand a real life hostile situation and cope with it better. Having some experience with something takes away much of the fear of having to deal with it in an actual hostile situation. Much of the terror in being subjected to these situations is in not knowing what to expect or whether or not you can cope. Experiencing it in a controlled voluntary environment first can go a long way in helping to deal with a real life hostile situation. It also teaches various physical and mental ways of aleaviating some of the suffering in a real life hostile situation. For example in waterboarding teaching ways of breathing or relaxation or mental exercises to minimize the suffering in a real life hostile situation, or stress positions teaching ways of relaxing certain muscle groups or periodic shifting or whatever to help minimize the suffering in a real life hostile situation.

Look at it this way... if you've never ridden a horse before it not only would help to experience being on a horse in a controlled environment as well as learning how to sit without jouncing around, how to hold on with the legs to stay on, etc. That way if made to ride a horse in a hostile situation you won't be as afraid since it's something you've done before and you learned ways of making riding the horse less uncomfortable and ways to stay aboard. It doesn't mean you still won't be terrified in a real life hostile situation and you won't be thrown off and break your neck anyway, but it does go a long way to limit the fear and minimize the suffering to be able to cope better. Make sense?

[Abq_Sarah]

23. Not really

My brother was in Special Forces and we've discussed his experiences in SERE many times. By the time they are "captured" they've already spent 5 days trying to evade the "enemy". They have slept only hours, they've only eaten what they could find along the way and they are exhausted. They are taken to the "camp" and put into concrete boxes that measure 3'X 3'X 3'. They are required to sit in a specific position in that box. The box is lit with a bright light and they pump in music and propaganda 24/7. There is a little rectangular slit in the box the "guards" use to monitor the "prisoners". If they change position or fall asleep, the "guards" hose them down with water. They are pulled out of the box for interrogation sessions. The "guards" and interrogators are allowed to shove them, slap them, throw them against the walls. After a couple of days in the box, they are waterboarded for the first time. By then, they've only had about 6 or 7 hours of sleep and are mentally disoriented. The lines between the exercise and reality are blurred. My brother went through 3 waterboarding periods, each lasting about two hours. They count every time they pour water on them as a session. He has no idea how many sessions he went through. By the time they've reached the waterboarding level, it's absolutely not a "game" to them.

There are several reasons to put servicemen through that course. First, they want to make sure they are mentally tough enough to buy time if they are captured. Remember, the Special Forces guys operate under cover. They have to be able to withstand rough treatment and maintain their cover so they do not endanger their other team members. They also need to be able to keep their wits about them enough if they're captured to plan an escape. The military knows the vast majority of people will eventually break but they want to make sure the guys who are captured can hold out as long as possible to allow their teammates and the military to complete or change their mission.

[ProSense]

12. Here:

Malcolm Nance: Waterboarding is Torture… Period

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. Do you realize that because they volunteer it means it's not really torture?

Consent makes all the difference.

[bluedawg12]

24. They are merely consenting to torture.

The means to get there is a consent, the end is torture.

[masuki bance]

14. Why do we make them get up so early and do calesthenics?

If I did that to someone, I would be imprisoned.

[Phx_Dem]

15. So they can learn how to torture other people, and

so they can withstand torture from others. It's great to teach soldiers how to withstand torture, but when you actually have to torture them to do it! . . . I don't know, maybe it's me but that seems seriously fucked up.

[Occam Bandage]

18. How do you plan on teaching them to withstand particular methods

without having them experience those methods in a controlled, safe setting? Some things aren't best learned from a book.

[bluedawg12]

25. You torture them to expose them to torture.

[brentspeak]

19. Supposedly, because it can help them prepare for what to expect if they ever get captured

I don't know if it would actually work, though.

[NYC_SKP]

21. The simple answer(s).

First, to experience the sensation of waterboarding (in the presence of trusted peers) is not at all the same as having it done by strangers who do it mercilessly.

Second, it is with your consent (as indicated above).

Thus, it is not torture, it is but a little taste of the procedure.

Prison guards regularly are exposed to pepper spray and sometimes tasers as a way of understanding the effects on prisoners and as a way to hopefully prevent their undue use of these.

Nothing to worry about here.

:patriot:

[MadMaddie]

22. The Navy stopped waterboarding for survival years ago.

They found that it was life threatening and mentally destabalizing.

Why do firefighters practice going into burning buildings?....because they may have to someday.

Why do police officers conduct advanced weapons training? Because they may find themselves in a situation where they have to pull their weapons.

The military is obligated to expose our troops to what is a possibility of torture. Training can save lives.

I understand your anger....but soldiars are in a very dangerous field of employment and anything that can help them prepare for the worst case scenario could save their lives.

[lavndrblue]

27. They are not tortured to hurt them,

they are subjected to different types of torture to teach them how to resist if captured. This has been going on for decades and is nothing new.

[vaberella]

29. I've been thinking this from the beginning. All I could think was JASON BOURNE as an example.

If you say yes to it then it's not torture.

[Skidmore]

31. Is there an option to say "no?"

Or, is it a mandatory requirement of training?

[vaberella]

32. I don't know. It looks like it's part of the training.

It's a "just in case" measure. So you know what to be prepared for and trained in case of being captured. Of course the stress in training of both the situations is a joke. That's like that Hitchens guy going through water boarding. His freaking out would have been 30x more if it was at enemy hands so it's still not functional in training. But these idiots don't think about the mental state.