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Thinking Again About Those Photos - And Obama's Rope-A-Dope Ways

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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:15 PM
Original message
Thinking Again About Those Photos - And Obama's Rope-A-Dope Ways
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/05/thinking-again-about-those-photos.html

Thinking Again About Those Photos - And Obama's Rope-A-Dope Ways
Andrew Sullivan



My immediate shock that Obama would be willing to suppress evidence of prisoner abuse, torture and even murder - stunningly widespread in the Bush-led military - somewhat distracted me from the politics of this. That is often a mistake with Obama who both takes his own responsibilities as commander-in-chief seriously and always appears to be playing a longer game than his opponents.

But this is a blog, written in real time, so allow me some secondary thoughts after a night to sleep on it. In the cold light of morning, it doesn't seem quite so offensive. In fact, the rope-a-dope this time might be on us.

The critical point of releasing the photos is that they will help break through to the American public just how endemic the abuse and torture of prisoners under Bush was. It was everywhere, in every field of combat, committed by every part of the armed services, and in identical fashion: no blood no foul, along the lines of the torture and abuse techniques specifically authorized by Bush. Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld sent a very clear message that spread throughout the entire military and CIA: terrorists are beneath even baseline Geneva protections, any prisoner might be a terrorist, so do to them what you will. Rewards will go to those who secure "intelligence" regardless of how it's gotten. Freeze them, beat them, starve them, shackle them, heat them, strip them, destroy them. As an email sent to all military interrogators in Iraq put it, "The gloves are coming off gentlemen regarding these detainees. Col. Boltz"—Colonel Steven Boltz, the deputy MI commander in Iraq—"has made it clear that we want these individuals broken."

And so they broke them. The point of the photos is not to demonstrate more gore; it is to have a fresh opening to explain to Americans just how widespread this was, and also to remind them that this led to the deaths of scores. But against this important public interest, the president has another duty - to his soldiers in the line of fire. These soldiers deserve a chance to do their astonishingly difficult job without inflaming those who might be inspired to kill and attack them. I see no reason to suspect that Obama is not genuine about this question, and it's a fair factor to consider. More importantly, he has not said that suppressing the photos at this time means suppressing them for ever, and has not indicated that he will prevent justice being done. In fact, his statement said the opposite.

The pro-torture right will say this call is obvious. It isn't. It's very hard. When you have inherited a policy of war crimes, and you are still fighting a war, balancing accountability with responsibility is tough. I think, having made our point, we should cut the man some slack on this. What matters is holding those who destroyed America's moral standing responsible. That is a struggle for patriots to engage, a Truth Commission to study, and the attorney-general to pursue, while allowing the president to do his job as commander-in-chief.

I will note this too about the politics. If Obama wants to get the truth out, and does not want to be slimed as a partisan avenger (the propaganda line from the Rovians), it helps him to have symbolic spats with those of us who believe we have no choice but to confront the war crimes of the last administration. This has long been his mojo: give symbolic gifts to your opponents while retaining the core issue. These gestures - Rick Warren dinner with Bill Kristol, summits with Cantor - help insulate him from being drawn into them kind of partisan fight the Rove right likes to fight. In this rope, in other words, the anti-torture movement is the current dope.

Fine. Rope-A-Dope us. But let us not let the responsible parties get away with torture, abuse and murder. And let us play a smart and relentless long game as well.

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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. He says he'll show the photos, changes his mind at the last minute
and then some get "leaked" by an Australian newspaper...coincidence, I'm sure...
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Published on Feb. 15, 2006...
Your timeline is a loop.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Just a little taste, quite possibly enough to do the trick,
to have the desired effect.

No need really to release everything to the world, but just enough to acknowledge what was done.

After charges are filed and convictions are had, I would support release of further images if they were effectively associated with those responsible and after it was clearly established to the rest of the world that we had done the right thing by investigating, prosecuting, and punishing those responsible and had put an end to American torture.

But not before.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Rope-a-dope? Like bailouts and CC legislation and H1-B Visas and
no single-payer healthcare?

Who are the "dopes" supposed to be, again?
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. Okay, but why did the president say that it was the work of a few...
...who have already been brought to justice?
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MiniMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. imho this has more to do with Obama going to Egypt next month
He is going to meet with the muslim world, and releasing those photos right now would probably be a really bad thing for that speech and meeting, especially from a security concern. However, I do think that there is some rope-a-dope going on in regards to torture, and it is working with Cheney.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Someone on msnbc suggested the Egypt thing - could be.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. releasing them before would show a courage and strength of conviction...
...that would send a bigger message about America and what Obama (and we) would like it to be than this option does.

Having said that, I don't know if this is even the reason or not, but I think my point holds if so.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. I realize that my Pres is not fearful of getting hurt by
some crazies and it is his duty to serve. But there are crazies and that was seen when that Queen Beatrice almost got killed. If these pictures anger someone into retaliation before he goes to Egypt...I'd rather not. That's just me, because his well being is of great concern to me.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Well, it's not like I'm rooting for the guy to get hurt.
But that's exactly what makes it a courageous and bold move that sends an incredibly strong message about us as a country, and Obama as a leader.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
7. K&R
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. I thought this was going
Edited on Thu May-14-09 02:29 PM by Cha
to be something from you, babylonsiter..somebody has to say it.

People accusing me and others of standing with mcconnnell, graham, etc, etc, are missing the point of the long range plan.

They don't want the photos shown because of protecting their stupid goperverts..President Obama and Team truly do want to protect the troops now and not incite the Middle East anymore than humanly possible.

Big trip there in early June.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. +1. n/t
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. That trip is crucial.
I guess people have to ask themselves whether they want a president who is trying to make peace, or one who will surely divide with the release of the photos. I was out of the country when those Dutch cartoons were made a big deal of, and people in the ME were outraged. I just don't think this needs to happen, as much as I support the ACLU.

Those pics will come out, if only to the justice department when trying to decide what to do. I have no interest in seeing them.

And I don't give a flip if anyone tries to compare me to a gooper. They can stuff it.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Yeah, it is really hugely Important..
I don't care, either, if they do that..just hot headed knee jerking while cooler heads are prevailing in the White House.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
12. No, this was an act of cowardice on Obama's part. The right wing Supreme Court will keep
the photos under wraps.

The evil leaders, from the individual military member torture perpetrator all the way up to the corrupt leadership within the Pentagon are ALL PROTECTED.

The TORTURE will CONTINUE ... only covert.

This is COWARDICE and I'm ashamed that Obama is now serving as "The Pentaton's Puppet." :grr:

THE SAME CORRUPT LEADERS are still "in charge" within the military and the pentagon.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Sorry, I don't agree..I don't think
it is an act of cowardice at all.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. The Pentagon is now pulling Obama's strings. Even ramping up involvement of the military up to
21,000 troops and GIVING the Command to the man who COVERED UP the circumstances of PAT TILLMAN's death.

The TORTURE Perpetrators are still in charge of our DEFENSE DEPARTMENT. :grr:

Obama is a coward for not taking them on... they RUN this country via The Military Industrial Complex.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Now the question needs to be begged when you think O is NOT a coward?! n/t
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. He was not a coward during and immediately AFTER the campaign, when he PROMISED *transparency.*
He's reneging on that promise and should NOT be given a free pass JUST BECAUSE he's a likable and highly intelligent politician ... whose been compromised by the power elite within the Military Industrial complex. :(

No slack for this one ... THE TORTURERS are still "in charge" of our defense department: Gates (Iran-contra), Petraeus (numerous corruption investigations and human rights violations, COL suicide swept under the rug); and McCrystal (Pat Tillman's death and cover-up).

The FOXES are still in charge of the hen house ... THANKS TO BARACK OBAMA. :grr:

"Those who make you believe in absurdities (chess my ass!?!) will make you do atrocities."
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Sometimes it is harder to do the right thing
and be called a coward by some.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Ain't that the truth..especially
when those calling him a coward have no idea why he's doing this and what's next.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Absurd. The torturers are now FULLY COMFORTABLE and continuing to run our Defense Department.
:nuke:
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FloriTexan Donating Member (481 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Are you saying we are still torturing?
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. The Executive Branch is behaving like BushCo. with regard to RENDITION and treatment
of prisoners at Bahrain.

YES, WE STILL TORTURE, but it's now covert and not photographed.

UNTIL we bring these LEADERS in the Defense Department to justice, or AT LEAST out of POWER, we will continue to function "Militarily" and "Co-vertly" like Torturers and Thugs.

We need to totally "clean out" the leadership of the Defense Department Starting with Gates (Iran-Contra) and including General Petraeus (human rights abuses/contractor graft investigations squelched) and McCrystal (the General in-charge of the Tillman Fiasco).
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laureloak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. Damn! Why can't Obama STAY THE COURSE like Bush?
Seriously, I respect that he's open to changing his mind after hearing opposing arguments.
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wiggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
26. This is what I'm willing to believe is going on. nt
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Yes, it's so much more comfortable than facing the HORRID truth. nt
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
29. And what *I* do not understand.....
... is if the point is to show that the abuses like at Abu Ghraib took place more extensively than we first realized, WHY do we need to be able to SEE them? We are all capable of complex thought. Abu Ghraib abuse was not just limited to Abu Ghraib. Am I over simplifying things?

The only explanation I'm hearing from those who want them released is, "because it's the right thing to do!" .... it speaks to a concept, not a practical aplication.

Perhaps I'm NOT the only over simplifying things.
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