Far left desperately wants the photos released because of concern for the lack of mainstream outrage

[onetwo]

They are trying to incite the mainstream grassroots anger they feel is necessary to pressure Obama into prosecuting Bush and friends. Nothing more, nothing less.

The fact is that, with all of the other problems surrounding the country, the torture story has been a bit of a dud with the general public. This isn't the bank bailout -- Nobody's really getting sufficiently mad about it. What the left has failed to learn from the right is that you can't force this kind of issue, lest you inadvertently end up with the opposite result -- see Bill Clinton and his cheating on Hillary... and his approval numbers at the conclusion of all the bullshit. (Or, for a more recent example, look at the tea bag parties.)

So, when the far left so vociferously rejects a very reasonable excuse for the delay by the Obama administration (and only the most cynical would believe that it is anything but a simple delay), the calls for prosecution look less like genuine requests for justice and more like the beginnings of a political WITCH HUNT.

What's worse is that many are failing to see the lesson to be extracted from the Abu Ghraib release. Yes, anger levels increased, but relatively few talked about Bush/Cheney -- rather, EVERYONE wanted to know about what was going to happen to the homely girl named England! It was less about the top leadership and more about the troops directly involved. So, even if the pictures are released, there is no guarantee that the public's newly-developed outrage is going to be directed towards the proper targets. And if it IS misdirected, there will exist the probability that the public will dole out a severe backlash to those who would try to manipulate them into supporting a legal action that, in their eyes, seems clearly political and clearly a witch hunt. It is possible that, again, the public will be satisfied simply with the prosecution of the soldiers directly involved.

Face it, people are about 10 times more angry about bonuses for execs at TARP-funded banks than they are about the alleged mastermind of 9/11 getting waterboarded 183 times in a month. That alone should immediately tell you that now is not the right time for maximum impact. My opinion? The best time to release/leak the pictures is when it is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that torture prosecutions will begin and it is known to everybody that prior leadership is being held directly responsible. Then, and only then, will the horrific acts depicted by the pictures be properly hung on the necks of the individuals we REALLY want to see convicted.

[xchrom]

1. right -- and the 'far left isn't concerned about anything but torture.

is there any whore-ish hoop moderates won't jump through?

[GarbagemanLB]

2. I just find it amazing how people pushing for the release of the photos refuse to admit it will

increase the danger our troops are facing.

There was a backlash after the first photo scandal, and there will be one if these come out right now too.

Who cares about their lives, though? I need to feel satisfied as I sleep in my comfortable bed safe at home. That comes first!

[slay]

23. Yes - let's just sacrifice the truth and all our values instead

These pictures are VITAL in getting people to understand the scope and scale of the TORTURE we committed. Hiding behind the troops as an excuse to not release the photos is lame. So the courts were wrong, and Bush is right huh? :eyes:

[onetwo]

29. Last time, the release of photos got troops and American civilians killed. That is fact.

The holding back of the photos does nothing to hinder the judicial process. Nothing at all. A trial can still occur and people can still be convicted even if the larger public isn't introduced to every last grisly detail of the crime.

[slay]

35. WRONG - our TORTUREing other people is what got them killed

The pics only displayed what happened - which was TORTURE. I will never understand how you can justify covering up what we did. We did it, and we need to accept the consequences. We did it - we need to own up to it. Period.

[onetwo]

42. That is a deflection of the actual truth. Yes, if the actions depicted in the photos never happened

there wouldn't have been an increase in violence. But the link between the increased violence and the actual torture is an indirect one. There is a topic on here that does a great job of reminding everyone of the repercussions of the last photo release. Nick Berg, anyone?

The fact of the matter is that the non-release of PHOTOS is not a cover up of actions that have already been vividly described in other terms. We already know that everything in those photos happened. The fact that those actions occurred is public knowledge. There is no practical purpose to the public release of the photos other than getting people angry. Therefore, it is actually quite trivial to justify not releasing the pictures.

[slay]

50. The purpose in releasing the photos is for the Amercian People to SEE the scope of what we did

A picture speaks a thousand words so the saying goes. Vietnam did not end until graphic pictures of what we were doing, as well as what was being done to us, came out. I will not apologize for standing up for the truth - whereever that may lead. I have a cousin and 3 friends in the military. I have spoken to 3 of those people over the last few days and all three are for the release of the photos. To paraphrase what one of them said: "I want these pictures seen so people in the states will know the kind of shit that has gone on in this war. This war has been sanitized by the government since day one. We are over here in harm's way everyday and most Americans have no idea just how bad it really is." (He's under orders, as is everyone he knows, not to go into details - some leak out like lack of body armor, lack of water, etc). He said some people he works with were against the photos coming out - but his assesment was that these people actually don't want people back home to know just how bad this war has been. But I can not, and will not hide from the truth, nor will I support any kind of cover-up. Oh one other thing my buddy said was that the release of the photos would draw a clear line in the sand seperating the Bush and Obama administrations by showing - this was the past, and is no longer. So even people in the military have different points of views on this. I happen to agree with my friends in the military on this.

[onetwo]

53. It is precisely that strong impact that has raised this dilemma.

Isn't it reasonable to expect that graphic photos, that can strongly move people in the way that you described, can also strongly move a different set of people in another (negative) way?

That is the argument. Some on the left (;)) refuse to accept that Obama could be correct and that there might be very bad consequences that come with the release of these pictures.

Here's the problem: Pictures need no translation. On the other hand, messages like, "The pictures draw a clear line in the sand separating the Bush and Obama administrations by showing - this was the past, and is no longer," need a LOT of translation. Internationally, there is a very high probability that this message will NOT make it to the very people that mean to do us harm. That's a big risk; one that must be properly managed and considered. Obama slowing this down is a good thing.

[slay]

54. I understand where you are coming from - I just disagree

Yes there could be some propaganda use by the other side but at some point (6 years bogged down in Iraq maybe?) you just have to say enough is enough and it is time for the truth to come out! If we were so worried about these pics coming out - WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TORTURED PEOPLE. That is, and will remain, my position. When you sign up for the military, you know you are agreeing to put yourself in danger - it's not like signing up for American Idol. We are either a nation that seeks truth AND an end to ALL wars - or we are not. And it appears we are not. :(

[mbperrin]

49. Well said, and thank you!

nt

[LooseWilly]

55. I'm not buying it.

The first release of photos was one thing... but those photos have had their effect... and I'm betting that most anyone who claims to have been tortured by the US will be believed. I don't believe that more photos will have the same effect as those first photos on troop safety.

It's not like the Public in Iraq or Afghanistan is going to say "Ohh, I know you said you were tortured Bilal, and you showed me some of those old photos... but I didn't believe you. Now that I've seen these new photos though!! I'm fighting mad now... let's go kill us some US Soldiers!!"

That's what you're arguing though. And that's what Obama's arguing. It's ridiculous.

On the other hand, I will freely admit that the OP has nailed my reasons for wanting the photos released perfectly. I think the American public should have to see photos of what is being done in their name. I think they should be outraged. If they really don't give a shit about US torture... well that's their choice... but I think some genuine discomfort in the face of what has been done is the least the American public can endure after what the Iraqis and Afghans have gone through.

Maybe I'm a bad American. I can live with that.

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. Bullshit -

because it will never be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that torture prosecutions will begin

UNLESS PEOPLE CAN BE CONVINCED THAT TORTURE TOOK PLACE.

This isn't putting the cart before the horse - it puts the cart before the cart before the horse.

If you are going to spread the bullshit, you'd do better to not claim it is just the 'far left' who objects to violations of the law, the constitution, the Geneva conventions and common christian morality.

[onetwo]

9. The only people that need to be 'convinced' are the would-be prosecutors.

And that is my point. The calls for the release of the photos has nothing to do with transparency -- that is a cover to explain away why they want their way so badly.

[slay]

20. Bullshit indeed!

And we face this kind of total utter bullshit not from the republicans - but from another DU'er. Unreal. I see little hope for this country if people are so easily fooled and manipulated. Your post was spot on brother.

[LostinVA]

4. *Standing Ovation* Best performance art I've seen on here in a long time!

Bravo!

[onetwo]

22. Forget the ill-advised use of the "far left" label. Are you telling me that the clamor for...

...'transparency' does NOT have anything to do with the fact that there are those on the left that are worried that the opportunity to punish Bush and other key officials is slipping through their fingers due to lack of broader interest?

[LostinVA]

28. Bravo for the second act! And for not getting that transparency shouldn't be in quotes

The posters wanting the photos released are THE SAME POSTERS who wanted them released under Bush. Your values don't change -- or shouldn't -- depending on who is President.

[onetwo]

31. LOL, OK.

I chuckled.

[Zodiak]

5. I have learned...

That anyone who uses the term "far left" on DU is not interested in honest discussion. Why? Because if you are willing to try to marginalize 80% of this website in your first sentence with labels, then you do not really respect your audience. Straw-men and other logical fallacies will ensue.

What the hell is "far left", anyways?.....in my book, it means communists and really hardened socialists. There are precious few of those people here. Most who you are referring as "far left" are just run-of-the-mill progressives who place more of an emphasis on principle than party or politics.

I will accept "left"....but "far left" is unnecessary hyperbole.

[LostinVA]

7. You got it

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. Pelosi and Clinton and Reid and, of course, Obama are the far left.

I know because i heard it of Fox.

[villager]

6. The snarky use of "far left" discredits the whole post...

...and dismisses the various generals, commentators, etc., who all want the photos released...

[TheMachineWins]

8. "Far left" talk sounds pretty "far right"

The "far left" you are referring to is actually the majority of Americans:

http://www.ourfuture.org/progressive-opinion/americas-progressive-majority

[onetwo]

16. OK, yours is the seventh post about this. Clearly I shouldn't have used that kind of wording.

Can we now return to the subject at hand?

[slay]

19. Since when are people who want the truth exposed and court decisions upheld Far Left?

Seriously - I'd like to know. :eyes:

[onetwo]

25. If only the motives were as simple as exposing the truth and upholding court decisions...

...and not as ideological as prosecuting Bush at all costs.

[slay]

30. Well I consider myself a "Kucinich Democrat" and truth is my main motive - as well as upholding the

decision of the court. Unfortunatly when you cast a wide, poorly worded net like "Far Left", you catch people like me in it. Honestly, I don't care if Bush goes to jail or not - the damage is already done. Putting Bush in jail won't solve anything, but as they say - the truth will set you free. I want the truth exposed and that is my only goal. That is why so many are having issues with your post. I honestly think you are off target with this. You may be right about some people having the motive you claim, but you just can not lay that charge at the feet of a large group of people, sorry.

[onetwo]

41. Let me ask you a question...

...would you agree that Kucinich would be considered more to left than practically anyone else in Congress? Would you agree that Kucinich is as left as anyone in today's Democratic Party? Maybe that puts into perspective the "far left" label, at least with respect to how I used it in this topic. I didn't mean "far left" on the traditional absolute scale. I'm not calling anyone a socialist or communist or whatever.

And ironically, my use of the "far" modifier was for the sole purpose of laying the charge at the feet of a very specific subset of people.

[slay]

47. I actually think Dennis is

pretty much just a normal guy. Far left would be communism advocate. But yes, I do agree the most of Congress is to the right of Dennis and it's a sad reflection upon our society that there is NOBODY to the left of him, while the right is filled with people wayyyyyy to the right and that seems to be ok.

As far as your post, everyone is entitled to their opinions, I would just recommend not using "far left" in it. Maybe "some on the left" or even just "some people" and not categorize them at all. Just my 2 cent opinion there.

[onetwo]

51. Will definitely take that under advisement.

And I agree with you -- it is sad that people like Kucinich and Feingold are painted as 'extreme' solely because no one in 2009 is more to the left of them. Honestly, Dennis' views seem rather moderate on that absolute scale.

[LostinVA]

34. What does Bush have to do with having the photos released?

:wtf:

[onetwo]

44. Photos get released. People get angry on a large scale. Obama gets pressured to prosecute.

Or at least that's the gameplan.

[TwilightGardener]

10. I agree. Most Americans were not ashamed or disgusted at the appropriate targets, nor

will they be, because some more photos get released. The American people aren't going to get truly angry about anything except gas prices, taxes, layoffs, etc. This doesn't mean the photos should never be released--it just means the focus should be on investigation and prosecution, and leave the "hot" stuff for when we don't have two wars still going on.

[onetwo]

14. Exactly.

[OHdem10]

11. Half the country has no or little problem with what we call torture.

There are Democrats who do not shrink in shock at waterboarding.

There are rank and file Americans who have no problem with
whatever you may do to a terrorist.

Cultural Differences exist.

[TwilightGardener]

13. This is very true. In my neck of the woods, anything you do to those

"Ay-Rabs", anything done by our government to "protect" us from those Ay-rabs, can't be wrong.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

15. You come on here and throw around RW terms...

like "far left" and expect me to respect your opinion?

:eyes:

[QC]

18. Amazing how much red-baiting we're seeing on this site lately. n/t

[snowdays]

21. the 'far left' are not good enough for the

"Obama Democrats"--it seems to me from the OP. Its shut up time according to the OP.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

39. There's a distinct feeling of...

"There's a "D" in office now dammit, get in line!" behind a lot of what is being posted.

Well this Democrat says "I don't think so." :hi:

[onetwo]

45. No, it's not "shut up time." You keep him honest. You let the WH know that you won't stand for...

...the truly bad decisions if and when they come during these next 4-8 years. However, there's a point where it starts to become counter-productive -- about at the point where false arguments start being pushed. Arguments like "Obama is not transparent" despite the fact that, to much bellyaching from the other side, he just released torture memos that are far more relevant to the case against Bush than these photos.

[dgibby]

57. Indeed he did release the memos; however, it was in response

to a court ruling for a FOI by the ACLU if I recall correctly.

[LostinVA]

32. Even some very, very faint pink-baiting

[QC]

36. Well, there's nothing new at all about that.

Though it certainly has gotten a lot more vehement lately.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

37. It's been coming on for awhile...

But certaily has gotten worse lately. :(

What I find amazing is how things I hated and worked against under Bush I am suddenly supposed to role over for now that O is in office. :eyes:

Not. A. Chance.

[snowdays]

40. yes, it has been

mine boggling to say the least. and agreed--NOT A CHANCE.

[LostinVA]

43. Your beliefs and values shouldn't change depending on who is in office

As a friend of mine recetly said to me.

[slay]

24. Agreed

I've noticed quite a lot of this over the last few days. :eyes:

[tomp]

17. more confusion-mongering on the "far left".

by no means is it the "far left" as a whole who are outraged about torture. for you to state it as such makes you part of the problem not credibility.

[Sebastian Doyle]

26. So now you're "far left" if you believe war criminals should be prosecuted?

This is why spineless DLC dishrags are every bit as bad as admitted repukes.

[onetwo]

46. The non-release of these photos means that we can no longer prosecute Bush and Cheney?

Strawman argument.

[NC_Nurse]

27. Are you on the right board? "Far left"? How about "people with morals" or

"respecters of law"? WTF?

[slay]

38. I'm with ya NC_Nurse!

I said similar things higher up in the thread. Glad to see most DU members not falling for the OP's latest excuse for promoting what is essentially a cover-up of the extent of TORTURE we engaged in.

[onetwo]

48. Do you want justice in a court of law or court of public opinion?

The release of the photos technically does nothing to increase the likelyhood of the former. The point of my original post.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Warren Stupidity]

52. The courts have consistently agreed with the 'far left' ACLU

that this is a FOIA issue in which the government has no legitimate right to withhold these documents. The 'far left' ACLU desperately wants, and has wanted for around six years, to have these documents made available to the public, because an informed citizenry is an essential part of a functional democracy. Your support for the continuing efforts of the Bush and now the Obama administrations to deny our lawful access to this information, is support for an ongoing cover up of war crimes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. That would be a political motivation then.

Not that it isn't on the right side of the issue, but political motives don't belong in the justice system.

[Cha]

58. Yeah, and it's great that they are voicing

their concerns but they cross the line into stupidity when they compare Prez Obama to bush.

[depakid]

59. "The far left?"

Wow.

Color me thoroughly unimpressed with that ramshackle apologia.

[jbauer_torture]

60. strange

never thought of that

[eridani]

61. Basic bullshit premis here. There is no such thing as a "far left" in this country

--much less on DU. Anyone who says there is just promotes the Repuke agenda.

[TexasObserver]

62. It's not the FAR LEFT asking for complete disclosure.

Your terminology is unbecoming a progressive.

You don't need a label for those of us who insist on full disclosure. One need not be left or far left to want that.

You are doing what so many of the torture apologists do. You attack the motives of those who merely want what is necessary for the country to properly deal with the war crimes and torture done in our names by our former leaders.