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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 07:12 PM
Original message
Military tribunals
Let's have a rational discussion about them.
Why are our criminal courts not sufficient to prosecute suspected terrorists?
I think that, for myself anyway, it would be a little easier to stomach if I had understood some good reasons as to why these military tribunals are even necessary at all...increased protections for those on trial or not.
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jbauer_torture Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. i like it
tribunals are a good thing
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. anyone else?
eom
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. seriously
I'm seeing lots or arguments about whether Obama has gone back on his word and whether the protections that are being talked about are sufficient to justify keeping the tribunals but why are they necessary in the first place??
Does anyone have even an inkling of an answer to this?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. US: Revival of Guantanamo Military Commissions a Blow to Justice
Obama broke a campaign promise to restore the rule of law, and it is up to us, the people that voted for him, to tell Obama that this is unacceptable in a nation of laws.

US: Revival of Guantanamo Military Commissions a Blow to Justice

New Rules Won’t Ensure Fair Trials

May 15, 2009


(Washington, DC) - The Obama administration's decision to revive military commissions for detainees at Guantanamo will prolong the injustice of Guantanamo, Human Rights Watch said today. The commissions will provide substandard justice, and will likely be beset by litigation and delays.

"The military commissions system is flawed beyond repair," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "By resurrecting this failed Bush administration idea, President Obama is backtracking dangerously on his reform agenda."

As a presidential candidate, Obama rightly called the military commissions at Guantanamo "an enormous failure." On his second day in office, he suspended the commissions for 120 days and announced plans to close the detention center at Guantanamo within a year.

Today, the administration announced that it would resume trials of Guantanamo detainees by military commissions under new rules that would offer defendants greater legal protections. According to the administration, the new rules would prohibit the introduction of evidence obtained through coercion, tighten the use of hearsay evidence than under the existing military commission rules, and allow detainees greater choice in selecting defense lawyers.

Although the proposed changes to the commissions would be improvements, they do not address fundamental concerns about the flawed nature of such tribunals, Human Rights Watch said. The very purpose of the commissions was to permit trials that lacked the full due process protections available to defendants in federal courts.

Some of the most egregious problems of the military commissions are the result of starting a system from scratch. Because the rules of procedure were ad hoc and untested, it was difficult to prepare a defense. For instance, the system in place to provide discovery to defendants left defense counsel without access to critical - and in some cases possibly exculpatory - evidence. Many issues became subject to myriad legal challenges, resulting in long and unnecessary delays.

An inherent problem with the commissions is their lack of independence. Being part of the larger military structure, they are vulnerable to improper executive branch influence and control.

Another issue of concern is the commissions' continued reliance on hearsay evidence. Although some defenders of the commissions have pointed to international tribunals' relatively permissive rules on hearsay, a crucial distinction is that the triers of fact in such tribunals are judges - who know to properly discount the weight of hearsay - not laypersons, who do not. Human Rights Watch knows of no criminal justice system other than Rwanda's highly discredited gacaca courts in which hearsay is admitted before a jury of non-lawyers, as would be the case with the revised military commissions.

The proposed rules on hearsay open the door to obtaining convictions (and possibly death sentences) based on the testimony of dubious witnesses, people whom the government will not need to produce in court, because their testimony can be conveyed via hearsay.

"The revived military commissions will be deeply tainted by the moral and political baggage of the old commissions," Roth said. "The unhappy history of these commissions virtually guarantees that in future commissions the unfairness of the proceedings will distract from the gravity of the crimes."

Human Rights Watch said that whatever marginal benefits the administration might see in obtaining easier convictions by using a substandard trial process will be vastly outweighed by the negative consequences of relying on the commissions. The United States can expect to face continuing international condemnation for restricting basic due process rights, and for failing to repudiate the legacy of Guantanamo. It will also discourage the international cooperation needed to successfully break up terrorist plots and apprehend terrorist suspects.

Human Rights Watch has long called on the US government to transfer the Guantanamo cases to US federal courts, where procedures that have withstood the test of time and litigation. Although critics assert that trials in US courts would jeopardize national security by exposing sensitive intelligence information, the courts are governed by carefully crafted rules that protect sensitive information from becoming public. Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman, implicated in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, and Zacarias Moussaoui, implicated in the 9/11 attacks, were both tried and convicted in US federal courts.

"There is no good reason why the Guantanamo cases shouldn't be tried in federal court," Roth said. "In the more than seven years since the military commissions were announced, only three suspects have been prosecuted. The federal courts, by contrast, have tried more than 145 terrorism cases during the same period."

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/05/15/us-revival-guantanamo-military-commissions-blow-justice
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. this is my concern
And the "new rules" do nothing to ease my concerns about why these tribunals are even necessary in the first place.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Secret courts, secret trials, summary executions
the essence of a totalitarian state. I had hoped these threats to our liberties would have been swept away by now, instead they seem to have been institutionalized by the very man we elected to rid us of them.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Where are you getting your information?! Bloody hell.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. why are they necessary in the first place?
that's the question I want answered and all I keep seeing is rehashing of how he didn't support them the way Bush wanted them and he is putting more safeguards in place.
WHY DO WE NEED MILITARY TRIBUNALS???
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Here's a Wiki Answer and a Gem:
Edited on Fri May-15-09 09:19 PM by vaberella
The use of military tribunals in cases of civilians was often controversial, as tribunals represented a form of justice alien to the common law, which governs criminal justice in the United States, and provides for trial by jury, the presumption of innocence, forbids secret evidence, and provides for public proceedings.


However..this might be the most helpful:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32458.pdf
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. link is a fascinating read
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. If you scroll down to pg. 64 in the link.
You might see some restrictions on the court to what O has proposed in order to make it a balanced court during war times.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. but here is what I find so maddening...
why are they necessary in the first place?
there is nothing about that anywhere
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Here is what I gathered from my reading.
Edited on Fri May-15-09 10:16 PM by vaberella
It's used only during war times and it's basically military lawyers, judges, and what not are judging other soldiers of a warring faction. It's to promote expediency and efficiency by separating war criminals or enemy soldiers in a war, from normal citizens, and having them follow a system where they are tried in a court of law by their "peers," of sorts.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. Here are some various reasons stated......
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. but none of these get to the question I am asking
why are military tribunals necessary in the first place?
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Unsane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. I like them for efficiency reasons. I also don't have a problem with the idea of Guantanamo
It's the torture that I don't like. But prosecuting POWs in war courts and holding them has never been especially unusual..
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. okay, that's a start
efficiency...
I don't know enough about the workings of our criminal justice system to argue for or against them for that reason that but this is what I'm trying to find out...why are we even using military tribunals in the first place.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. I have a question....
could someone tell me how the presence of these detainee's on U.S. soil might affect their ability to file suits against individuals in the Bush Administration and the U.S. Government? Everyone seems to know everything about everything, so hopefully someone can answer my question.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
16. lol @ "rational discussion" ..... that was cute.
I appreciate your effort any way.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
20. Military tribunals aren't even fit to try military personnel.
The notion that a military tribunal is anything more than a kangaroo court, more fitting in China than the USA, is pure folly.
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