Will draft fears sway voters?

[Nicholas_J]

Cleland and Dean tell students that Bush would conscript them and ship them to Iraq
John Kerry greets former Sen. Max Cleland, a frequent companion on the campaign trail, at the Democratic convention in Boston.
By Tom Curry
National affairs writer
MSNBC

Elect George Bush, some Kerry surrogates said last week, and you or your children will be drafted to fight in Iraq.

Inspiring fear in voters seems to be in political vogue this fall. (Cheney has since amended his comments to say he meant to argue that Bush has a more serious approach to deterring terrorists than does Kerry.)

Some voters seem inclined to believe that Bush would attempt to revive conscription, which ended 31 years ago. During a question-and-answer session on Wednesday, the mother of a recent West Virginia University graduate asked Democratic vice presidential candidate John Edwards whether the draft would be reinstated.

"There will be no draft when John Kerry is president," the North Carolina senator vowed, raising the question of whether there would be a draft if Bush remains in the White House.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6027815

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. With some YES

[partygirl]

2. Everyone I know

says it is just a scare tactic by the Democrats--it has turned several young voters that I know away from Kerry. Especially when they throw it back at me that Charley Rangel proposed it? Anyhow--I don't know anyone of draft age that believes it is anything but fear mongoring. We are going to have to really punch up this argument if we expect it to carry much weight with young voters.

[amber dog democrat]

4. It won't sink in until they are in Basic Training

getting prepared to deploy to Fallaujah. I knew way too many cannon fodder kids that never did learn to think for them selves even when they WERE in the service.

I guess it is just to hard to accept that their trust is misplaced.

[LisaL]

5. Well, that only proves

how stupid people are. I guess they will realize their stupidity when they are send to the middle East to "spread peace".

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Frfeedom of INformation document

look here and then print it, next time a young kid tells you scare tactic, give them this

http://blatanttruth.org/draft.php

document is real, and has been aknowedged by DoD

[roseBudd]

41. better yet give them a flyer

Go to http://somnamblst.tripod.com to download high resolution TIF or PDF file to print.

[bluestateguy]

7. Then they deserve to get drafted

Sorry, but I'm rapidly losing my compassion for people who vote for Bush and then complain about the consequences of their actions.

[LisaL]

8. I agree. How dumb can you be?

They think it's a scare tactic? Well, how do they think Bush will get people to fight in his un-winnable wars?

[DemBones DemBones]

13. Then they are incredibly naive. I'm not surprised by

their naivete but it shows they are not paying attention.

Charley Rangel hoped to get their attention, and their parents' attention, by proposing reinstatement of the draft with NO deferments. Everyone serves unless determined to be medically unfit by military doctors. He's correct that there were positive aspects to required national service but it was also unfair because it allowed some people who were rich or well-connected to escape serving or to escape combat if they served.

If Bush* and his administration reinstate the draft -- and I believe they will if they retain power -- do your friends think they will make the rich and well-connected serve? Or do they just believe they will somehow magically escape the draft?

Because if they think they can get out of the draft by pretending to be gay or by running away to Canada, I think they need to wake up and face reality. Draft boards would be on the lookout for fakery of any sort and Canada will extradite draft evaders next time. The idea that Bush* is OK, the war is OK, "those people" chose to join the military, they knew what the risks were, blah, blah, is just whistling past the graveyard if you're draft age, or have kids who are draft age.

[partygirl]

22. like I haven't heard

anyone worried. No one I know is planning on pretending to be gay or running to Canada--that is how people felt during Vietnam. Things are a lot different now. The people I know just are not that concerned about having to go there. I know that I have a lot more pressing worries on me. See some of my other posts.

[Dems Will Win]

42. THe Rangel Bill will NEVER happen, BUT BUSH IS ALREADY READYING THE DRAFT!

Printable pdf: http: http://somnamblst.tripod.com/draftalert.pdf

THIS IS NOT THE RANGEL BILL ALTHOUGH THE AGES ARE SIMILAR (18-34, MEN AND WOMEN) THIS IS THE SECRET BUSH REPUBLICAN GEARING UP OF THE DRAFT AND TELLING EVERYONE NOTHING TO SEE HERE, MOVE ALONG.

In May, the Seattle Post Intelligencer published an article about a document they received through the Freedom of Information Act. It was revealed that the SSS is currently “designing procedures” for the implementation of a “Skills Draft” after holding a top-level meeting on it with Deputy Undersecretaries at the Defense Department. This draft would change the very mission of the Selective Service and require “virtually every young American”, male and female ages 18-34, to register for the Skills Draft and list all the occupations they are proficient in to fill labor shortages throughout nearly the entire government.

Here, for the first time, is the FOI document itself:

http://blatanttruth.org/selective_service091304.pdf

This document is real, having been acknowledged by the DoD and the SSS when they said no action is being taken on it at the present time, as reported:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/171522_draft01.html

Although Congress would have to approve new legislation to create a Skills Draft or reinstate the combat draft, Family Circle reported in its July 13 issue that Karl Rove has polled GOP members of Congress in September 2002 to see if they would support the President if he requests reinstatement. The Republicans said they would vote for the draft.

In addition, the SSS itself has said that it is “designing procedures” (Seattle PI, May 1, 2004) to implement the skills draft, meaning designing the compliance cards and the data fields needed to keep track of “virtually every young American” and their skills. Acting Director of the SSS Brodsky has also said the Skills Draft is the “top priority” of the Selective Service for 2004. The Issue Paper options include:

- Allow a non-combat draft for shortages in critical skills, without calling a combat draft.

- Fill labor shortages of all kinds throughout not only DoD but the Dept. of Homeland Security and other agencies, especially high-paying professionals like computer networking specialist or linguist.

- Create a single-point, all-inclusive database, in which every young person would be forced to send in a “self-declaration” of all of their critical skills, chosen from a long list of occupations like the Armed Forces Specialty Code. The usual penalties of imprisonment and/or a $250,000 fine would apply to all non-registrants.

In the secret planning meeting document, the next steps strongly recommended by SSS Acting Director Brodsky were:

1. “Promptly” redefine the SSS Mission to draft men and women up to age 34 for skills, and deliver them within 90 days or sooner to the Department of Defense. Program a massive database to be ready to enter millions of names of those registering their critical skills.

2. Expand mission to deliver personnel in skills draft to the Department of Homeland Security and other agencies, including FEMA, NSC, Border Patrol, INS, Customs, Corporation for National Service, Public Health Service and other agencies.

3. Form interagency task force to provide Administration with recommendation on this skills draft for the entire government.

4. Obtain White House Statement of Administration Policy on the future of the SSS.

5. Be prepared to market the skills draft, raising the non-combat age to 34 and the drafting of women to the Armed Services and Appropriations Committee.

In contrast to this planning and preparation to create a targeted draft, Kerry plans to spend an additional $7 billion to strengthen the Volunteer Army in what is essentially a “No-Draft Plan”. Moreover, Kerry is strongly opposed to the neo-con plan revealed in Wes Clark’s book Winning Modern Wars, in which Clark was told by a senior Pentagon official that invasions of Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Sudan and Somalia were planned and still to come over the next three years.

DON'T FORGET TO USE THE .PDF NOT THE .GIF FILE.

BUSH '04 = DRAFT '05

KERRY '04 = PNAC OUT THE DOOR!

For more Flyers: http://somnamblst.tripod.com/

[ParanoidPat]

29. Unh huh......

....."Everyone I know" :eyes: :evilgrin:

Keep informing "Everyone you know" about the draft and don't fall for this obvious bullshit! Just keep handing out and posting copies of the actual plan for the draft and let them make up their minds as to who they want to vote for.

[in_cog_ni_to]

33. Then you need to give them the Draft flier!

Send them to www.blatanttruth.com to read the secret draft document...and give them this flier.

http://somnamblst.tripod.com/draftalert.pdf

on edit...THIS IS NOT THE CHARLIE RANGEL DRAFT PROPOSAL! THIS IS A NEW DOCUMENT THAT WAS JUST UNCOVERED! The document is on www.blatanttruth.com. Let them read it for themselves!

[oasis]

3. It's clear that Bush's doctrine of preemption guarantees more invasions

and occupations. As the "coalition" shrinks, the need for a draft increases.

[henslee]

10. I know in my heart 1000's of Nat'l Guard & their family are voting Kerry.

They may not be broadcasting it now. And the audience at Bush's Nevada speech to Guard honchos might not reflect it....but come election day, voters are gonna be alone in the voting booth, thinking about life and death... and they're going to vote Kerry, hoping that maybe just maybe, they or their loved one won't have to dodge bullets and bombs just because they needed money for college.

[oasis]

20. The "backdoor draft" is a reality.

[Jokinomx]

25. I agree with you henslee.....

I have been telling my own Family of several brothers and sisters to look at their own children and ask themselves if they truly want their children fighting is the middle east. If they can't say Yes... then they better not vote for * . Because their children will be drafted if we don't change the direction of the country.

I am hoping your correct with the fact ...NO ONE really wants their own children fighting an unwinnable war in the middle east.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[henslee]

11. Scare tactics turn off informed people but not the sheep. This admin's

success is built on scare tactics.

[roseBudd]

47. it is not scare tactics when there are preparations in the works

I passed out draft flyers yesterday and I saw the look on their faces when I said the word draft

may have been low, but I don't care

[oasis]

12. Charlie Rangel isn't a member of PNAC. Cheney, Wolfowitz, Libby and

Fieth are in the administation www.newamericancentury.org

Throw Richard Perle in as an advisor to Rumsfeld.

[Lugnut]

15. Then won't they be surprised

When their asses are sitting in Middle East sand.

[DemBones DemBones]

17. See my post # 13. And believe me, when

we were "youngsters," we realized we weren't immortal because our peers were being killed in Viet Nam, and often those killed were draftees, not volunteers.

Kids better wake up to what can happen.

[Nicholas_J]

24. Besides

Whether they feel immortal or not, they certainly do not want a tour of duty in Iraq to interfere with their own personal plans for their own lives. The draft will put a crimp im the lives of a lot of people. Recent polls of draft age young people indicate that as many as a third have stated that they will not go if called up, and if that is so, the government is going to have a hard time prosecuting a lot of people who refuse to take part.

I am very proud of todays young people, they show a willingness resist what they do not beleive in and take part in what they do in astonishing numbers. I have not seen such a sense of moral outrage since the 60's, and I believe that the current generation of young people may even outdo us old fogys in opposing the draft if it is reinstated.

Canada will of course open its doors, just bring some warm clothing.


Many will go to Canada, but I beleive that just as many will simply refude to go, leaving the military and the White House with a major problem trying to prosecute hundreds of thousands for refusing.

Enough to create a major national crisis, worse than the war itself, I beleive.

[lanparty]

26. Canada is under new management ...

... there seems to be a sense that draft dodgers wouldn't be welcome in Canada this time around.

Well, Mexico will ALWAYS take you if you have dinero!!!!!

[Nicholas_J]

28. Already

Several American soldiers who returned from Iraq for leave escaped to Canada and their is a rather big problem as they would not return them to the U.S. Bill O'Reilly gav a rather big anti-Canada spiel about it after it occurred. I still thik that Canada will be a major hiding place for those who try to avoid the draft.

[lanparty]

34. Another boycott????

Ah, so now we're going to boycott our #1 trading partner????

I'm just wondering if O'Reilly would ever propose a boycott on China for prison and child labor????

[LisaL]

23. People really are dumb.

Of course, if Bush admits he wants to reinstate the draft, it would be political suicide. But can't run for re-election a third time, can he?
So, what has he got to loose?
:eyes:

[ParanoidPat]

30. Funny that when you let people know about a draft that no one has.....

......even heard about, they all know who proposed it? :evilgrin:

Why do you suppose that is? :shrug:

Give us a break. Why don't you try the Yahoo boards instead. You might have more luck. :)

[Nicholas_J]

32. There already have been articles aroud

citing recommendations from the Pentagon indicating that very soon, the existing troops and the remaining Guards units available for call up are too thin to support the existing problems in Iraq, and that they would be totally useless if violence escalates even in the slightest, and forget it if any sort of civil war breaks out.

Some of the articles on this topic have indicated that the penatagon is heavily arguning that a draft will be necessary by mid 2005 at the latest.

And the militaary has already started programs all around the country rounding up volunteers to sit on draft boards in case of eventual need to reinistitute the draft.

[Dem Agog]

39. My thoughts exactly!

[Demi_Babe]

14. absolutely

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemBones DemBones]

19. Why don't you define "old fogies" for us, since you keep saying it? nt

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemBones DemBones]

27. Oh, reallllly old people, huh?

:evilgrin:

If you and your friends don't help vote Bush* out, you will likely discover that we old folks are savvier than you think.

But, hey, it's your war -- I won't be drafted and neither will my kids -- they're too old!

[ParanoidPat]

31. The truth works best on the informed.

That's what DU does best. We find factual information and inform people of it. :evilgrin:

It's how we party. :party:

[agincourt]

18. Yes,

Prove shrub will put in a draft, keep proving we won't, no waffling here, and you will get new voters votes.

[texasmom]

35. Informative site

http://www.bushdraft.com/

[DemBones DemBones]

36. Interesting. . . In looking through "My Posts" when I signed on just now,

I saw that my post asking party girl to define old fogies (a term she'd used several times) was now listed as having 0 replies. I remembered clearly that party girl replied and said all those people over 30 were old fogies, which I thought was funny. Paging Mario Savio. . . So I clicked to the thread and found most of her posts were deleted and she has been tombstoned.

Yep. Trolls are among us in large numbers. Don't call them trolls or freepers -- that's against the rules -- but DO call them out on their bullshit. Question them, ask them for links. If you feel fairly sure they're disruptors, make the mods aware so they can watch them.

When newish posters are telling us young people don't care about war and the draft, don't care about voting, etc., it raises my antennae. The same with oldish posters, actually. If you know some young people who don't care, they should be educated as to why they should care.

[salin]

37. Yes..... right now folks seem to be driven by fears

folks might not buy the draft notion... until you show them the articles being written by neocons who have influenced policy that are stating that the US should attack Iran. Then ask them HOW they (neocons and bush) can possibly contemplate doing this? Then ask them if they have heard tough talk from Bush that suggests that he won't walk away from a fight... and ask them if it is likely that he will change his tune (pushes them into having to admit that bush flips also - but since they don't like to think in those terms... then "no" is the answer... and they are in a corner...) Then ask if there has been a precedent where bush wants something passed very badly and his administration is less than forth coming with all of the details until after they get their way (think - not talking about the known North Korea nuke threat until after the IWR was passed; think - not disclosing the real costs of the medicare bill until after it was passed; think - not admitting that the intel used to push the war in Iraq had lots of caveats that called the info into question - until AFTER WMDs were not found and after the handpicked weapons inspector said that not only were there no WMDs - but it was likely that there never WERE WMDs (that is: not possible that they had been there and were moved or destroyed just before the war...)... then go back to the rhetoric about Iran... And let the question linger of "how will they man this effort... and what are they not telling us about it before they do it..." Makes the whole scenario suddenly seem possible - and the fear of a draft more palpable.

[roseBudd]

40. I posted DRAFT ALERT flyers on an OH campus yesterday

As I was walking back to my car with just a few left I said to select young males, "Heard about the draft? as I handed them a flyer. Put it this way, it woke them up.

Go to http://somnamblst.tripod.com to download high resolution TIF or PDF file to print.

[salin]

43. It is a powerful flyer

but may I add a suggestion? Attach to the flyer copies of one or two articles tied to the administration's musings about need for action in Iran. Makes the whole issue take on another dimension... that yes, the bushies are crazy enough to think they can have another war... which then begs the next question... how will they man it... strengthening the impact of the draft flyer.

[Hubert Flottz]

38. Only the smart voters!

If Bush wins the kids lose!

[IndianaGreen]

44. Saying Bush is going to have a draft is pure demagoguery

The reason why imperialists such as the Republican neocons of PNAC and the Democratic neolibs of PPI will never have a draft is precisely for the reasons many of you are fearful of it: it creates political pressure on the Government to end an unpopular war.

The imperialists need a large military in order to maintain a Pax Americana throughout the world, a jackbooted sort of peace in which we keep our oligarchs in power and we topple troublesome populist reformers, such as Hugo Chavez in Venezuela (notice how Bush and Kerry share the same points of view on Chavez and how they both support the Venezuelan oligarchs).

Our professional military is tailor-made for an imperial foreign policy. It recruits young men and women living in communities where the military is the only way to escape, and it is the only way to have a chance to get training and an education. Our professional military thrives in the low income, service sector type of economy we now have. The working class youth are fertile ground for military recruitment efforts. The appeals to patriotism, and the promise of putting some meaning into someone's life, do resonate with young people that face the harsh economic realities that those outside of the investor class have to face.

Bush and Kerry will get us out of Iraq. Bush will do so by declaring victory all the while he withdraws US troops. Kerry will do so by using "internationalization" as a fig leave for withdrawal. Bush and Kerry need to salvage our military so that it can be used for more profitable enterprises, such as securing Venezuelan oil for our interests, or to attack Iran, or to do Israel's dirty work against Syria in Lebanon.

Neither Bush nor Kerry will ever have a draft, for the draft prevents militarism. In addition to that, college students don't get drafted! The children of families that can afford college, even if they have to get a second mortgage on the house to do so, are safe from the draft. The children of the poor, and working poor, that live in economically depressed areas cannot afford college. They are the ones that will end up in uniform, not because they were drafted, but because they chose to join the volunteer military!

[Hippo_Tron]

45. Some worry that after Bush is re-elected, that all voting machines...

Will be rigged, making it impossible for the GOP to loose control even if they do re-instate the draft.

[IndianaGreen]

48. I count myself among those worried about those voting machines

I posted this local story earlier today:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x842300

[TexasSissy]

46. I think that fear applies to whoever wins, not just *.