Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

As the center-left fights, the right organizes

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Places » Canada Donate to DU
 
Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 12:36 PM
Original message
As the center-left fights, the right organizes
Edited on Sat Feb-18-06 12:37 PM by Bragi
While the NDP-Liberal centre-left in Canada fails to grasp the consequences of its division, the right-wing gete its act together...

- b

Christians eager to flex political muscle
New gov't seen as catalyst to dispel 'bogeyman' image


Richard Foot, CanWest News Service
Published: Saturday, February 18, 2006


When dozens of conservative Christians gathered in downtown Ottawa Thursday night to celebrate the opening of the Institute of Marriage and Family Canada, they were applauding more than the arrival of a new religious think-tank on the national stage.

Many were also toasting their good fortune at coming to Ottawa at the same moment Stephen Harper's Conservatives had ascended to power.

"For the first time in years," says Derek

Rogusky, the Institute's vice-president, "Christians and people of faith that have cared about
issues such as marriage and families are expecting to be heard on Parliament Hill, and not necessarily attacked for their values.

"Under previous governments a lot of us were branded as bogeymen, as somehow un-Canadian, for our beliefs," he says. "I think that has changed with Harper becoming prime minister."

Rogusky's Institute -- a new Ottawa offshoot of Focus on the Family, a faith-based advocacy group with offices in the U.S. and British Columbia -- is symbolic of the new political awakening

of socially conservative Christian forces across the land.

Their mobilization was not ignited by Harper. But his victory has emboldened their mission and raised expectations that for once, in a country famous for it chilly treatment of anyone pushing ]faith-based public policy, Christian conservatives might now be welcomed in from the cold.

"I've never seen the type of interest in politics from Christian and other faith communities

that I've seen in the last 18 months," says Rogusky. "I think there's a realization that by being silent or ambivalent for so many years, we've seen an erosion in the values many of us feel Canada was built upon -- and now's the time to get involved."


More http://www.nealenews.com/nealenews_Christians_Feb1806.htm

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Two points
1. If social conservatives gain even more power within the Conservative Party, it will only alienate mainstream Canadians and make more remote the prospect of Harper getting reelected.

2. If you're truly concerned about possible destructive consequences of disagreements between the NDP and the Liberal Party, then perhaps you should quit your smear campaign against the NDP. Or do you think that irritating NDPers is an effective strategy at getting them to want to join forces with you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Two points in rebuttal
TS Wrote:

1. If social conservatives gain even more power within the Conservative Party, it will only alienate mainstream Canadians and make more remote the prospect of Harper getting reelected.

I think the deal between the socons and Harper is that the socons will mostly shut up during the minority government, as they did in the last campaign, so that media and voters will contintue to see the CPC as more moderate than it is. The socons understand that after the next election, when Harper gets a majority, he will deliver for them.

TS then wrote:

2. If you're truly concerned about possible destructive consequences of disagreements between the NDP and the Liberal Party, then perhaps you should quit your smear campaign against the NDP. Or do you think that irritating NDPers is an effective strategy at getting them to want to join forces with you?

Of course I understand that pointing out how voting NDP elects neocons won't convince many among the relatively small number of hardline NDP activists that the best way forward is for the centre left majority to unite behind the only party in Canada that can defeat the neocons. It will just piss most of them off.

However, and more importantly, I think that raising this question may help to convince the much larger group of reasonable centre left people who currently vote NDP that voting this way will not stop the neocons, and that the only way to stop the neocons is for centre left Canadians to vote en masse for the only alternative party that can form a government.

I personally think it's very important for this message to get out forcefully to centre-left voters before the next election for the simple reason that, if these voters split their votes again in the next election, then Canada's neocons will be free to inflict their social and economic agenda on our country, which is not something they (or I) want to see happen in Canada.

- B
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-18-06 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. Frankly, you're the one fighting the left..
Conservatives don't have a lock on neo-conservativism or its economic counterpart, neo-liberalism. The Liberal Party certainly stinks of the latter. And I'll fight both where I find it.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. As I said...
Edited on Sun Feb-19-06 09:19 AM by Bragi
I don't really expect to change the minds of hardline sectarians like yourself.

I think it's reasonable, though, to hope that Canadians who want the neocons defeated can be convinced by solid arguments not to waste their votes on a party that has demonstrated, in every federal election since it was formed more than 4 decades ago, that it does not have the popular support needed to seriously contest for federal government.

And given that the united right is getting organized to form a majority, I also think it is very important that this case be made now, well in advance of the next election.

This will allow Canadians to think about the harm to Canada that will result if the majority centre-left vote is split next time between a party that reflects their values and can form a government, and two others (NDP and Green) that can't.

- B
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. A couple of months ago
much informed opinion held that Stephen Harper would never be Prime Minister.

The NDP, you say, "does not have the popular support needed to seriously contest for federal government." It's popular support is now the equal of the Liberals. So why don't you just keep talking about the future as if it's already happened.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. NDP mathematics?
Mirthful Minstral wrote:

(NDP) popular support is now the equal of the Liberals.

If you think 17 per cent is equal to 30 per cent, then I suppose you could say that the NDP's popular support equalled that of the Liberals in the last election.

Personally, I'm more inclined to see it as the Liberals getting almost twice as many votes as the NDP.

- B
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-19-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I said "now" and you know I mean
the post-election Decima poll: 25% and 24%

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. How about this morning's "now"?
I only ask about "now" because there is an Ipsos-Reid poll out today with quite different numbers (Libs 26, NDP 19 <or United Centre-Left 45, CPC 38 = another Neocon victory>.

Which is why, in this particular debate about the likelihood of an NDP government in the next election (looks odd when you see that in writing, doesn't it?), I think it is more useful to refer to the results shown when 14 million Canadians voted last month, rather than results from various polling firms asking different questions of a random sampling of 1000 Canadians.

- B
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
9. Quick Note...
Couldn't help but notice you are NOT telling NDPers to join up the Liberal party and put in a candidate that they like--a suitable Progressive leader and not some noxious neo-con like Martin or Ignatieff.

What you are telling them is that they should just 'shut up' and vote Liberal when the opportunity arises...a little disingenious, no?

So who should the NDP be rallying around this Convention?

I tend to agree with you...BUT since Martin was never really a liberal, it would make it hard for any conscientious 'voter' (NDP or otherwise) to simply accept your assurances that 1) Torys are scary 2)the Liberal champion will smite them...

Could you flesh this out a little more in this current reality and not simply re-spin a failed election campaign?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Quite right
I'm more focused on the next election rather than the Liberal leadership, or the last campaign. As for trying to convince NDP activists (who fortunately aren't all that numerous) to jump into the Liberal leadership contest, I'd be pleased to see this happen, but I don't think NDP activists are going to back uniting the centre left. More likely they will be a major obstacle to this happening.

The opportunity to move NDP voters to the Liberals will come later, particularly if the Liberals elect a leader who will broadly appeal to the centre-left. A new leader can make the case to former NDP voters that they should support the Liberals where Liberals can defeat neocons. (Actually, I'm fine with the reverse happening, as well, since this would also defeat neocons, and make a Liberal government more possible.)

Having said that, I don't have a fixed view right now on Liberal leadership candidates, other than I like Dryden, and could live with Rae. Belinda isn't a serious leadership contender, for me, and Ignatieff I would have big trouble supporting. The other candidates are a blur for me.

And you?

- B
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Just goes to show...
a bit of disingenuiousness on your part.

I always bust Minstrel's balls over the fact that historically the NDP haven't really bounced past the 20% mark and this after being a federal party for close to half a century?

He usually posts some old speech by Tommy Douglas and avoids mentioning a single piece of legislation the NDP have 'owned' in the last 25 years?

I contend that the NDP are next to worthless and in places like Alberta, if they disappeared, then the Liberals would do much better. In BC, the NDP here seem only to exist to keep other 'centrist' parties at bay.

BUT in all honesty, I will now ask you a similar question.

Putting aside the Trudeau canard about 'losing the idealists' in '74, how come the liberals haven't been able to tap the 20% that the NDP ALWAYS can count on?

What is it about the Liberals and 'core' NDPers can't stand and won't vote for almost out of religious conviction?

When will the Liberals try to get the 'idealist' vote again and when will the Liberals realize that the landscape has changed significantly? The Liberals lost Quebec (probably for good), they split the Maritimes, and have NO hope of a western comeback anytime soon. If the Tories gaina good foothold in Ontario, the Liberals are toast.

HOWEVER--the NDP is well positioned in the Maritimes and especially the WEST?

Wouldn't it make sense for Liberals to join up the NDP and merge with them--they have national coverage that the Liberals don't have and more to the point, their members seem far more enthusiastic about their party than do Liberals...jeez Stronach is 4th among hopefuls?

Another question: Before you toss off another 'pap' response, please reflect on the fact that the Liberal leadership campaign has not really attracted anyone of promience? Why is that?

Froma casually observer, the NDP are much more battle worthy than the Liberals at the moment, no?


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I don't get you
Edited on Mon Feb-20-06 02:23 PM by Bragi
What exactly is "disingenious" about my position? My only bedrock belief right now is that the neocons will rule until the centre-left stops splitting its vote, so I want the centre-left to unite. On just about all else, I'm quite flexible.

As for a merger, I have no problem with that, or with a new merged party -- the Liberal Democrats, or Democratic Liberals -- but I just don't see the NDP stalwarts allowing this to happen in time to defeat the neocons in the next election.

I don't agree with you that the NDP is "more battle worthy" than the Liberals. In the last campaign, they went up a measly 2 points, depsite the Liberal vote that broke loose.

And if you look at national elections historically, Canadians have voted time and again for Liberals, but the NDP can't break through the 20 per cent threshold, and I don't see it happening in the next election.

As for prominent people not running for the Liberal leadership, I'm fine that the ones who have dropped out have done so, and I'm looking forard to seeing who does contest the leadership.

Hope that wasn't too much "pap" for you...

- B

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Didn't answer the question...
Firstly Liberal stalwarts are NO more interested in merging with the NDP--so why are you trashing the NDP stalwarts?

Secondly, how come the Liberals can't break the NDP--20% strategically throughout the country is NO small change in the political vote bank. The liberals are the one's that have hemorraghed support to the Tories more 'moderate image', not the NDP.

Shouldn't you be more concerned about winning BACK Liberals? If you were genuinely concerned about this, then that would be the OBVIOUS tactic. Isn't that what was suppose to happen when Brison and Stronach left; pull the 'red' tory, PC types with them?

Sure the NDP has only 20%--but it is a solid 20% in large urban ridings.

That's why I think your disingenious--you introduce NO symmetry in your analysis and ignore even basics.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
V. Kid Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-21-06 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
14. You mention that you only have one bedrock belief...
Edited on Tue Feb-21-06 03:11 AM by V. Kid
...that sure seems to be true.

But lets get into something here, you seem to be really quite scared of these social conservatives, either that or your a Liberal agent provacateur who simply wants to annoy NDP'ers. Either way it's irrelevent.

Because the simple fact of the matter is demographically the "Christian Right" doesn't have the numbers that it does in the US of A. In the USA, evangelical Christians constitute about 30% of the population, in Canada that number is 10%. 10% of the population is not enough to form a political base for a party that wishes to win goverment! Therefore it will be simply natural for the Conservatives not to govern from a ridiculously socially conservative position.

In Canada Stephen Harper, as any and all commentators will point out, tried to hide his social conservative supporters, and even you acknowledge that, as they were seen, and please follow allong, a-s a l-i-a-b-i-l-i-t-y. That means they were not a help. And as you point out they're being quiet now so they can pipe up later? Because they can? Don't you remember why the right wasn't united in the first place? One of the reasons was that the Mulroney Conservatives, had too many socially liberal PC'ers, who constituted a key part of their political coalition. Harper, to succed, and to the extent that he has thus far, has had to reach out to moderates representing most city, and Quebec ridings. That annoys the social conservatives. But Harper, like any and all PM's, will need to balance certain factors, such as the moderate vs conservative one to get re-elected. And since Canada is far more liberal than the USA, that means he needs to be far more moderate than the Republicans.

But, lets suppose the social conservatives do get a majority, and I mean within the Conservative Party, putting aside all the socially conservative Liberal MP's like Tom Wappell. Do you suppose the even more unlikely fact that, the Conservatives get a massive majority, with enough anti-choice MP's will get elected too?

Do you suppose their simple election will change the nature of Canada?

Do you suppose the secular Supreme Court will allow them to establish a theocracy?

Do you discount the secular small-l socially liberal nature of Canada?

Do you think a US-ian republican style Conservative Party and message could get elected, let alone re-elected in Canada?

The Conservatives aren't as dumb as they played themselves out to be, in a stylistic sense. Governing includes style. The style they will need to portray, and back up somewhat, will need to be a moderate one. That's proven by their change from the 04' campaign, to now, where every crazy was told to shut up. And if they want too pipe up later, well they may be allowed to, but they won't have the ability to do so. They'll unlikely have the numbers, nor would the Conservative leadership have the political will to placate them.

If your a normal person, who would admit that they'd have to be somewhat moderate socially to get elected and have any chance at re-election, you'd recognize that hell brime stone and fire, for all of us in the reality based community wouldn't come to pass. Essentially one of the reasons all parties hate the Liberals is because even though they may disagree ideologically, what they really want is power, which the Liberals are good at holding, and stylistically they can't really be "in the centre" too. With the Liberals damaged, the Conservatives want to sieze that territory. Especially the whole in Quebec.

But you'd also recognize that with the Martin Liberals, and really the way they've been since Chretien was elected (sans him firing Martin), are pretty much the same as the Conservatives economically. After all if that wasn't that case why was it so easy for people like Belinda Stronach, Scott Brison, Keith Martin (a former Reform MP!!!) and David Emerson to switch back and forth between them.

And therefore your whole premise of NDP voters, who've been voting NDP federally for years, as MrPrax pointed out, regardless of the fact that they haven't been winning, will continue to do so. They might like the NDP to win, but their lack of winning hasn't stopped them from continuing to vote NDP. So maybe there's something ideologically, stylistically, or leadership wise about the Liberals that turn them off. And simply going "ahhh, Scaaaahry Harper", "stupid hardcore anti-Canadian NDP'ers, vote Liberal" wouldn't work. Continue to due it if you wish, fine, but don't pretend it'll work, if your honest.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-21-06 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Why all the ad hominem crap here?
Edited on Tue Feb-21-06 09:29 AM by Bragi
I don't have time now to respond to your thoughtful points, particularly your "it-can't-happen-here" argument, but I will try to do so later.

However, I find it disappointing that you end with an attack on my honesty, in a similar way that another poster yesterday called my arguments "disingenous" largely because he didn't agree with me, and apparently felt I should have spent more time making points that supported his argument.

Fact is, I disagree with some (not all) of your points, but I don't claim that you are dishonest because you disagree with me.

Is it not possible to debate this matter here without accusing each other of dishonesty?

- B
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
V. Kid Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-22-06 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Could you answer my questions instead of complaining? If so...
Edited on Wed Feb-22-06 02:38 AM by V. Kid
...do so, because frankly complaining is a bore. I understand not having time, but complaining is a bore. And I'd like to here you counter the demographic facts, because really demographics, are demographics. The very nature of Canada is diffrent from the USA so....

BTW I have no intrests in a proxy argument about feelings, were all adults here (I know, my name ;-)), and I've said nothing insulting above and beyond anything you've ever said. But if you wish to be a one trick pony, and not address my questions and points, then fine don't. Your not obliged, but don't expect me to take you seriously - ever. So again, if you can answer the points I raised do so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-22-06 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. My points wasn't about feelings...
It was about why some here can't sem to accept the idea that someone else may hold different opinions, honestly held. Without that assumption, debate is useless.

As for your belief that neocons can't take power in Canada, my answer is in another thread.

- B
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
V. Kid Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-22-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Feelings, they must be feelings....
Edited on Wed Feb-22-06 04:24 PM by V. Kid
...insert annoying barbra striesand sounding song here ... feelings ... :boring:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
V. Kid Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 04:42 AM
Response to Original message
19. Hey, Bragi your back...
...care to address any of my points now?

Also, would you agree or disagree with my following assesment.



So lets suppose that the Conservatives are able to pass anti-same sex marriage legislation, and get equal marriage overturned. Do you suppose that they would be more hurt by this issue, or helped by it? I mean this in a general political sense. As in will they be ablle to do better electorally with this issue back on the front page?

I wouldn't think so, as I think it could be a political vietnam. The reason I say this is because as we know Harper mentioned the issue on the first day of the campaign, and while many people thought he was crazy at the time, he minimized the importance of it for socially liberal swing voters. I also mention this as its clear that even if there were enough anti-marriage votes out there, which ironically would include Liberals, but I digress, the fight would be far from over as gay rights groups would clearly fight such a ruling in the courts. Not to mention the fact that denying same sex couples the right to marry has already been deemed unconsitutional, so if the goverment truely wanted to prevent equal marriage, they'd have to use the not-withstanding clause. Which of course would take a lot of political capital, and make the Conservatives look bad, or so I would think.


In any case I'm really intrested in hearing you respond to this, and my other points, as hopefully you'll have time to do so now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 24th 2024, 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Places » Canada Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC