I would like to suggest a practical solution to the BEVWORLD derailing

[EFerrari]

Can we just agree to post any information from BW as a report rather than as fan mail?

If BH is the idealistic elections reformer that some claim she is, she will value the information being disseminated over the cult of her personality.

If she is not, we are not enabling her dysfunction.

We really need to get over this (yes, **I'm saying it**) because there is so much work to do.

What do you think? If we follow this plan, every report from BBV will be credited AND inspected just as we inspect the reports we get from any outlet. It will cut off these endlessly distressing conversations about the rise and decline of BEVWORLD.

We have so much work to do. Can we please come up with a plan? There is so much we can do together.

[NMDemDist2]

1. ha! talking sense will get you nowhere around here

ya know?

:evilgrin:

[EFerrari]

2. I can't hear you, I'm a Sagitarian.

:evilgrin:

And to drop the mask a bit, am in tears because today's talking took me back. That damn Andy and his Ethel Merman imitations, day and night -- there was no escaping it.

:hug:

[NMDemDist2]

3. ok then

:hug:

[katinmn]

4. That seems very generous considering all

If people can't meet half way on this, they have a problem.

[EFerrari]

8. kati, always our reasonable voice.

:)

[katinmn]

11. aww, thanks.

:hi:

Thank you for being a problem solver. (Trying your darndest anyhow.):hug:

[EFerrari]

12. Yes'm. There is always the horrible possibility that

both of these size 8 feet will end up in my mouth.

Mr. sfexpat has an insurance policy, just in case.

:hi:

[Einsteinia]

5. Do you think my initial post that came from the BBV release

was "fan mail"?

[EFerrari]

6. Let's look forward, please. We have so much to do.

:hug:

[OnTheOtherHand]

29. in peace, I thought Einsteinia raised a good question

As far as I can tell, much controversy and pain was triggered by a post, titled "Leon County dumps Diebold!!! BBV Breaking News!!!", in which Einsteinia copied without further comment a story from BBV's website.

Some folks thought it was premature and misleading to have a subject header that "Leon County dumps Diebold" without independent confirmation, and I partly agree with that. ("BBV reports that Leon County will dump Diebold" would have been more judicious.) But a much more misleading subject header IMO was "Huffington Post - GAO confirms - 2004 Election Was Stolen," which I guess correctly represented the Huffington Post, but pretty broadly misrepresents the GAO. That particular thread got over 60 votes, and I don't know that there was a single critical comment (I gave up -- this was not the first thread along those lines).

So it seems perfectly fair to wonder: do you think that Einsteinia's post violated the terms of the compromise that you are suggesting, and if so, why? I can't tell. And so the people you are trying to parley with may not know either.

[ewagner]

7. Can a truce be negotiated?

I bailed out of the whole BBV mess when things first started getting nasty. It got to the point where I didn't know who to believe.

You'd think that now that there is a governmental entity (Leon County, Florida) that has verified that Diebold Machines can be hacked and elections changed without leaving tracks, that those who fought so long and hard to bring the issue to the mainstream could agree to put the past behind and join forces for the final assault against BBV.

I'd love to see it.

As with anything, however, there is no escaping the human element. I just hope it can be overcome.

[EFerrari]

10. I don't see it so much as a "truce" but as a reality check

for this forum. BEVWORLD has caused us a world of hurt -- not the least of which is our derailing.

So, if DUers who repost her stuff here just post it as they would any report and without embroidery, it seems reasonable that we can use the information to further the movement.

All political movements suffer from personalities just as people do from the flu.

I guess I'm trying to sell an innoculation. :)

[ewagner]

27. A very nobel effort my friend

good luck, I'll continue to watch from the sidelines.

e

[Kelvin Mace]

31. Bev is not the forgiving sort

and even if she were, why would we help her con people out of money?

The facts of the problems with Bev were very much documented (with her own words and posts no less). Her history of threatening reporters is pretty much established in muliple posts. People who have worked with her personally have documented the attrocities. Bev's lies have been thoroughly documented. So I am a tad puzzled you don't know who to believe. If there is some confusion about any particular issue, folks will be glad to point you to the relevant links.

I am not trying to be snide, but if there is some troubling question, I'll do my best to provide illumination.

[mod mom]

9. Well said, thank you.

[EFerrari]

13. This has to stop if we're to get anything done.

Thank you, mod mom.

[sojourner]

14. i like this a lot better than "reliving" the past.......

and there's potential for being MUCH more productive all round.

Here's to a great mind seeking answers to great problems..........sfexpat2000 hat's off to you, dear! (First a hug for all the hurts...:hug:)

:toast: :headbang: :yourock: :patriot: :kick:

[EFerrari]

16. We can do this.

And, with your usual radar, you know how painful this is. But, that's me and there's a bigger deal here. Like, our vote.

:hug:

[GuvWurld]

15. I never really talk about Bev, but...

I'll go along with this BevWorld stuff if it means people start spelling my name correctly ;-)

GuvWurld

[EFerrari]

17. from the dyslexic wing of the Elections Forum,

I'm ni!

[Wilms]

18. LOL!

I needed that. Thanks GUV!

[Einsteinia]

19. I'm certainly not angry but I'm very confused as

to why a post with good news for our cause got me tarred and feathered.

Yes, I know ALLLLL about the feud and the personality stuff of Bev--everyone does.

But we've got bigger fish to fry and we're trying to get Diebold decertified EVERYWHERE.

Nothing in this world is black or white. Who knows why people act like divas and have hissy fits and worse.

But, when we get our first hard evidence that even election officials finally admit that there a REAL problem with the Diebold equipment, it should be a day to rejoice and not flame me with wild accusations because I dared to post the news.

It all seemed out of proportion on off topic.

The good news now is that we've got someting irrefutable to present McPherson in California. If anyone dares to think they're going to certify Diebold in the middle of the night, they'll have a lawsuit the next morning.

You're right we've got so much to do and we're not getting anything from civil liberties, the environment or peace, until we getting our voting systems back. EVERYTHING is at stake. . . .

So, YES, let's move on now.

[EFerrari]

20. I have to say, there is no "Andy" feud here.

And for you to continue to characterize in that way is not only inaccurate but also, insensitive, as I have pointed out in too many posts.

So, no, when that grifter badmouthed my dear friend on FR WHILE HE IS IN SURGERY FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE cannot be discounted among people of conscience.

I really need you to know that, Einstienia, because you seem to not get it, for some reason.

We can move on but not at the expense of our best. Of our fallen heroes.

Back to the point: If the reports from BBV are simply posted here without embellishment, we can work with that report just as we work with any report.

Does that make sense to you?

[sojourner]

21. not knowing you in particular, but being familiar with past....

i'd say what you experienced likely had to do with the issues that others had (or have) around "personality" -- and when i say issues you should read "pain", "disappointment" and "anger" at the very minimum...not toward you, mind you...

maybe most healing thing of all that having gotten some of that off their chests, EVERYONE now proceed forward. FORWARD!! there is so much to do.

thanks for your positive response to the suggestion.... :toast:

[mopinko]

28. " a post with good news for our cause got me

tarred and feathered" the operative word here is news. i think that we should treat any post from bevworld as news from fox. an unreliable source. not to be really believed until we see it from another source. with a big fat FWIW.
bev helped to fit us all up with a tinfoil hat. she damaged the credibility of the entire movement. she is not doing good work, she is damaging us still. if we ever have to go to court with bev as our expert witness, we are screwed. if bev is the public face of election reform, we are screwed. i doubt anyone here wants to stop her from running her scam, or wants to go to the trouble. but we know better than to take anything that comes out of her "work" with less than a pound of salt.
if the bevbots want to be heard, fine. but don't waste you time defending her personally, and be prepared to back it up with outside sources.
for me, the issue is credibility, and she has none.

[Kelvin Mace]

30. I will apologize for your being attacked

Bev Harris is a raw wound to MANY people here, myself included.

Diebold getting kicked out anywhere is good news, but it is complicated by Bev's claim that it is her doing. As we have larened in the past, Bev has a long track record of taking credit for other people's work.

But, when we get our first hard evidence that even election officials finally admit that there a REAL problem with the Diebold equipment, it should be a day to rejoice and not flame me with wild accusations because I dared to post the news.

See, this is the kind of statement that drives us crazy. This is NOT the FIRST time we have gotten election officials to admit there are problems. Hell, we got a law passed in NC outlawing BBV for crying out loud.

Unfortunately, we are now fighting to make our state BoE follow the law. This is a REAL case, happening RIGHT now with the help of the EFF (an organization Bev accused of misconduct and conspiring with Diebold).

While the news in Leon Co. is heartening, we really could use people's time and efforts in NC. We are fighting to decertify Diebold in the ENTIRE state.

If people are looking for a anti-BBV hero, try Joyce McCloy. She has tirelessly fought this issue without asking for a single penny from ANYONE. Now she is fighting tooth and nail to protect the law she helped bring to life.

Little help, please.

[EFerrari]

22. I think it's signiicant that no touter of BBV has taken me up

on this solution.

We were here with a workable solution that would only benefit election reform.

Where were you?

[EFerrari]

24. Half an hour later, still nothing.

:eyes:

[Stevepol]

23. Amen, bro!

[eridani]

25. All social movements attract dysfunctional people

We are just going to have to learn to route around them.

[EFerrari]

26. I think that's right. We stay on task. n/t

[FogerRox]

32. sfexpat2000 -- good idea- hate to use the terms

-- but it sounds fair & balanced to me--

I would hope that the questioning of other DU members motivations could be kept to a minimum. DU has seen threads locked-- repeatedly-- and I think for pretty good cause too. I think its realistic to expect a devils advocate to any post. But that is part of the process. And that process works.

[EFerrari]

33. I'm not sure I copy you re motivation?

I myself appreciate the strainer effect.

And on the other hand, will never be able to unknow what I know about Harris -- nor will many posters.

If we can stick to the neutral reporting, it just would make sense that we could more easily focus on ALL THAT STUFF we need to attend to.

:)