Punch Cards: Why they were Bad

[BeFree]

Why do you think Punch Card Election Systems had to be gotten rid of?

Punch cards left a PAPER TRAIL proving Al Gore won the 2000 election in Florida. It was proven that Gore won when the news consortium did a HAND RECOUNT of the PAPER punch cards.

It was quite evident that a PAPER TRAIL was not a good thing for the Royal Bush Family. They knew a PAPER TRAIL would end their dynasty.

So, they pushed the Help America Vote Act (HAVA) which had the effect of getting rid of PAPER TRAILS.

And the Bush Royal Family was kept alive.

[Trevelyan]

1. when I contacted my Dem Senator before the 2004 "Election" about my

concern when the (Princeton?) professor was interviewed on NPR about his book researching the blackbox voting fraud and how the Dean refused to fire him for his book when leaned on -- my "Democratic" Senator referred me to HAVA which he voted for and said that HAVA took care of my concerns.

California going statewide to Diebold for the 2006 "elections" is very worrisome. I thought Diebold declared bankrupcy because they were not willing to give up their secret codes to be examined by election officials.

Need to keep up with http://www.BradBlog.com steadfast work on this vital issue.

[EFerrari]

2. CA will NOT go Diebold statewide because we will march

on Sacramento and riot.

[BeFree]

3. Hey sfexpat

I'm gonna hold you to that!

As California goes, so goes the nation.

California, IIRC, started this computerized crap, it's time it stopped where it started, eh?

You Go Girl!

[EFerrari]

4. Hey -- they cannot have California. My walking shoes are laced up!

:hi:

[BeFree]

5. Well, we do agree, eh?

This issue is the most crucial issue facing our Democracy.

It bothers me that this issue does not get more exposure. It bothers me that it can't be easily explained in plain english; maybe that's why it doesn't get more exposure?

&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Walking shoes? Maybe you should get yourself a pair of Shit Kicking Boots? LOL

[EFerrari]

11. This forum just did a great job of explaning tabulator problems

to me in plain English.

I'm the token civilian here. If I can understand it, it's ready for prime time. lol

[BeFree]

12. I read that thread

So, tell me, in plain English, what you know. IOW, what will you tell your SoE? If'n ya don't mind. You don't have too, if'n ya don't wanna.

[EFerrari]

13. Actually, I was trying to get a clear idea of where the vulnerabilities

are in our system so I can explain it to my newspaper contact, who is already interested.

I will say, the tabulators we use are insecure because they can be tampered with at many different points but especially via software. They have been shown to produce false results and there is no reason to have confidence in election results using these machines.

Then, I'll offer to send him the thread. :)

I'm going to see if I can hook Guv up with the County Supes because he's got a good plan and I think that several of them would be receptive to him.

[BeFree]

14. Thanks

That's the way I read it, too.

Now, if we can just get those simpletons to read the writing on the wall.

[EFerrari]

15. I believe McPherson has or will overplay his hand. Between

that and our dedicated activists, I have every expectation that we will prevail on this one. And, if we do, it will be in part because the net caught the swiftboating of Kevin Shelley early on and put two and two together. We couldn't stop that infamia. But, state Democrats who enjoy being employed will now need to reconsider their passivity.

[BeFree]

16. What do you mean by....

....prevail?

What is the final solution? What will yall be happy with?

[EFerrari]

17. In the moment, to bar further distribution of Diebold. In the longer

term, a voter verified paper ballot. There is no reason to be happy with less.

[Amaryllis]

19. I would say they can be tampered with at many different points via

software, not "especially" software. It's all about tampering with the software and there are many ways to do it.

[BeFree]

21. Software tampering

Even the punch cards are read via use of software. Even the software in the punch card readers are capable of being tampered with. But at least there was a paper trail. And that trail had to be gotten rid of in order for the Royal Bush Family to stay alive.

[yurbud]

7. Debra Bowen in CA leg. is working on this but...

others in state legislature are less than reassuring. The leaders of the assembly and senate both vouched for Arnold's appointee to replace the democrat the GOP literally ran out of office because he caught Diebold red handed and took the steps to block their use.

My rep in the assembly said she was working on "more rigorous testing" but any outcome that leaves Diebold in the election business is unacceptable.

If you are caught intentionally fucking with our Democracy, the rule should be one strike, you're our.

[EFerrari]

9. Those idiot Dems that let Shelley be swiftboated better wake up

and smell the takeover.

More rigorous testing, fine. We don't use the machines until they can prove they're unhackable which will be never.

[yurbud]

22. McPherson tests them over and over, hoping they will pass...

Democrats should be making a criminal referral, but our Democratic AG admitted he voted for ARNOLD.

[IsItJustMe]

6. Very simple solution to the royal family take over of voting and Diebold

and that solution is

Vote

Absentee ballot. It's the best way to create a paper trail and to make sure your vote counts.

Is it fool proof? NO. But is the best way we have available to us and I believe all dems that care about the vote should do this.

Pain in the ass? Yes. But so is spending 300 billion dollars in a war that nobody wanted.

You decide

[BeFree]

8. That's just a band-aid: Absentee ballots

The only solution is Hand Counted Paper Ballots.

The last time Paper Ballots were hand counted was in Florida in the year after the first stolen election - in 2001. That Hand Count showed Al Gore as the real winner in Florida, and hence, the national election. Of course, they got away with the theft, and then they got rid of Paper Ballots.

Demand a Paper Ballot for EVERYBODY. That is the only way to take back our country.

[IsItJustMe]

23. Yes, but we have to deal with what is, and the fact of the matter is that

the next election will not have a paper ballot system. We can fight for that, but until then, we must deal with it.

[BeFree]

26. Fact of the matter?

Many states have already passed laws demanding a paper ballot system. Many more states are working on establishing such a system.

Those, are the facts.

What is your state doing? Mine already has a Voter Verified paper Ballot. Congress has a bill, the Holt bill, HR550, IIRC, that would lead to paper ballots.

NGU!

[EFerrari]

10. Those ballots still are counted by tabulators. n/t

[Amaryllis]

18. You mean HAVA: Hack America's Vote Act also referred to as

Help America's Vendors Act, but not accurately since not all the vendors are American companies.

[Amaryllis]

20. I am wondering if McP maybe is being threatened. Don't you think the

same thugs that took down Shelley will be all over him to keep Diebold in place so Arnold can get re-elected?

[nicknameless]

24. You're right about the paper trail aspect... But also, punch card systems

in low income areas weren't maintained. You have to clear all of the punched chads out of the machines after elections. That wasn't being done. Also, the little punching devices were outdated. Ones that were shown to be more accurate were only available to higher income areas of Florida.

The arguments against punch card systems were phony. The intention, IMO, is as you've pointed out: They want to get rid of paper trails. At least with opti-scan systems, the tabulators can be rigged to guarantee rethug "victories".

[ramblin_dave]

25. The punch card hand counts didn't prove Gore won

It was the optical scan ballots that needed to be counted properly. A lot of voters filled in for Gore and then wrote in his name in the "write-in" space. (Some voted Bush and wrote in Bush too, but much less than for Gore). The optical ballot tabulators were programmed to reject such votes as overvotes. The election boards should have looked at all overvotes and counted these kinds of ballots as votes for the intended candidate. This particular case is not a matter of discretion, it's spelled out in Florida law.

Even so, the punch card systems have too many problems. Tricks can be played with the card holders, machines can become clogged with chad, and ballots are not counted at the precinct. This last issue means that funny business can happen to the ballots on the way from the precincts to the county tabulation center.

[BeFree]

28. Yeah, punch cards have problems.

But you are mistaken when you say the recount in Fla. did not prove Gore's win. The group of news organizations that recounted the punch cards was a well known fact. The problem was that the report came out on Sept. 12, 2001. You may have missed it?

What I have been saying is that it scared the pants off the pubs and they got rid of the paper as much as they could. Then they made sure there would be NO recount in 2004.

Kerry won. Gore won. We lost.

[FogerRox]

27. generally-

Spoilage rates are-

opscans are 0.5%- Levers 1%, Punch, 2%. Many DRE systems are much higher than that.

Some Election Reform needs to be taken into the frey of the '06 election.