As Posted on Auto's thread yesterday.. here is Foger who Rox's post
and here is the link to auto's thread ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x467567#467570FogerRox
2. My response
Thank you Congressman Holt for stopping by. (4.00 / 1)
Your reputation of accessibility precedes you.
I out was protesting the Iraq war here in Montclair, just got back home and I see by your answers I have not effectively voiced my concerns or the concerns I have read about on the email lists I subscribe to. Forgive me. I do hope, here, to better clarify those concerns.
Congressman Holt wrote
First, the post states that my legislation does not require optical scan machines to produce a voter-verified paper ballot.
Roger wrote:
HR 811 has a specific opscanner exemption, no audit of paper
1) Congressman I think you missed the direction of stated concern. I understand that HR 811 labels Paper scanned ballots as VVPB. Thats good, very good. But does HR 811 mandate a VVPB audit for paper ballots scanned by optical scanners?
SEC. 2. PROMOTING ACCURACY, INTEGRITY, AND SECURITY THROUGH VOTER-VERIFIED PERMANENT PAPER BALLOT.
(a)(1)(A)`(i) The voting system shall require the use of or produce an individual voter-verified paper ballot of the voter's vote that shall be created by or made available for inspection and verification by the voter before the voter's vote is cast and counted. For purposes of this clause, examples of such a ballot include a paper ballot marked by the voter for the purpose of being counted by hand or read by an optical scanner...
I see inspection and verification. I don't see the word audit, I would offer this:
available for inspection and verification by the voter before the voter's vote is cast, counted and audited as described in section 322.
Invoking the full weight of the improved "Holt Audit" for all VVPB's, as in section 322, leaves no wiggle room. I would prefer to see this in Section 2 clearly stated.
2)Washington attorney Paul Lehto who sued Sequoia, voiced his concern on the undisclosed software issue thusly.
My take is that the attempt even to escrow the source code will also fail. Analysis on that below (that's separate from open source development)
The Holt bill, while seeming to have a very broad duty on the part of state and local government officials to "disclose" source code and object code (etc) to the federal government, has very weak langage on how the local or state government officials are going to get their paws on all this source code in all jurisdictions in the first place. The relevant text simply states that manufacturers shall provide the appropriate election official with the information necessary for the official to provide information to the Commission . It does not say "all" information, and it does not specify source code, just the amount of "information" necessary for the official to provide some "information" to the Commission.
If the source code is to be disclosed then that trade secret "property" is being lost because it will be disclosed (these trade secrets) to all the world via public request and therefore no longer a secret. So the claim will be made by the manufacturers that (A) because the law abhors a forfeiture, the language should not be interpreted to require them to "forfeit" millions in investment in their view via losing their source code in the first place, and alternatively (B) if the language IS sufficient to command a forefeiture of their trade secret property, then their trade secret "property" worth millions has been subject to a "regulatory taking" such that they should be compensated. Their investment, they will argue, has been nationalized in effect, and they should be compensated handsomely for that.
I will be very surprised if the states and locals get their hands on all source codes for free. Instead, it appears that the local officials obligations to disclose are so broad (they arguably even include the source code on firmware embedded on hardware that the vendors literally don't control) that the state and local officials will be making at least a partial defense of impossibility, and they will probably also add that it was impossible for them to get a hold of the source code from the vendor like Diebold or Sequoia, in addition to the firmware or what have you on all the other hardware parts.
Here again, you'd think Holt II was providing us with source code that would be open, but it is unlikely to happen that way. Sequoia filed a declaration in my case claiming their trade secret investment was around $6M without considering lost profits from their purported 'investment."
Note also that in section 12, the state and local officials are required to document the secure chain of custody of the trade secret software, among other things. While chain of custody is a good thing for the election, this also has the effect of forcing the local government to document that secrecy has been preserved as to the trade secret software, which is the primary argument to destroy a trade secret once it is admitted to exist. This helps make the trade secrecy claims of the vendor stronger as well when they sue for damages or an injunction to stop the disclosure of their trade secrets to anyone not under a confidentiality agreement with them.
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Compare Section (9)'s broad language for local officials:
9) PROHIBITION OF USE OF UNDISCLOSED SOFTWARE IN VOTING SYSTEMS.-No voting system used in an election for Federal office shall at any time contain or use any software not certified by the State for use in the election or any software undisclosed to the State in the certification process. The appropriate election official shall disclose, in electronic form, the source code, object code, and executable representation of the voting system software and firmware to the Commission, including ballot programming files, and the Commission shall make that source code, object code, executable representation, and ballot programming files available for inspection promptly upon request to any person.
with section 12's weak language for vendors:
(i) The manufacturer and the election officials shall document the secure chain of custody for the handling of all software, hardware, vote storage media, and ballots used in connection with voting systems, and shall make the information available upon request to the Commission.
(ii) (ed. note: Only criminals not allowed in elections per this section are election, accounting, or computer security fraud criminals, but con men, national security felons, embezzlers and many others are very welcome).
(iii) The manufacturer shall provide the appropriate election official with the information necessary for the official to provide information to the Commission under paragraph (9).
Congressman on your 3rd point, please correct me if I am wrong. Since all DRE's would generate a VVPB, and opscan paper ballots are themselves VVPB. If a state holds a recount because of a close race, said recount will be counting said VVPB. Based on this sentence in Section 327:
Nothing in the previous sentence may be construed to waive the application of any other provision of this Act to any election (including the ballot verification and audit capacity requirements of section 301(a)(2))
Am I citing the correct section in describing why no "close race" machine recount will be allowed under HR 811, that all "close race" recounts will be using VVPB as mandated by HR 811?
Previously I had just scanned this, but have now read this fully, sections 322 & 323 seem quite good, these sections are the "Guts" of the "Holt Audit", having a 10% audit rate in a close race is very powerful language. IIRC this is much stronger than HR 550. The "Holt Audit" is what garnered the term "The Gold standard". Now in HR 811 it might be the "Holt Audit" might be the "Gold Standard with decorative Platinum inlays and Diamonds".
After reading VVPB law from 13 states I get the feeling that parts of HR 811 are very well crafted, other parts are not, some are even vague and seem to be teeming with loopholes.
Impeach, Indict.
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by: FogerRox @ Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 20:36:14 PM EST
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Link to blog, to get the whole picture:
http://www.bluejersey.net/showDiary.do?diaryId=3976