So let me get this straight...Obama's been winning all day up until the polls close

[Atman]

Then suddenly the race switches and it becomes "too close to call." Just like certain other major elections of recent years.

Hmmm. Call me Mr. Cynical...but something stinks.

.

[LSparkle]

1. Me too -- I read something about Obama and Paul observers

being kicked out of some polling places, with Clinton campaign being the ones crying "foul." I agree with you -- something just doesn't feel right about this. His crowds have been huge, the polls have ALL had him up beyond the margin of error and now ... too close to call? How long will it take for the cities to come in????? :biting nails:

[sallyseven]

10. Media Hype.???

Maybe they changed their minds when the had to make the real choice. I have done that in local races.

[jgraz]

2. 81% voted on DRE machines

We have no idea what really happened in this election.

[SammyWinstonJack]

4. Shades of things too come?

[jgraz]

11. Shades of things that already are

When did exit polls become so unreliable? The science has been pretty well understood for a while.

[Orangepeel]

49. the pre-election polling was way off. The exit polls weren't

the pollsters made generally faulty assumptions about turnout, the way that undecides would break, and the number of independents that would vote democratic.

[hedda_foil]

8. NH doesn't use DREs

[jgraz]

17. Whoops -- then what are these hackable machines we've been hearing about?

[Pastiche423]

34. When did they stop?

In 2004, din't they use both DREs and paper ballots?

Good to see you, hedda!

[hedda_foil]

50. In 1988, some NH counties used a form of DRE (Shouptronic).

Since then, the vast majority have been all paper ballots that are optically scanned except the many tiny localities that still hand count. The cities and suburbs are obviously demographically different from little towns with populations of 10-200 or so, which accounts for differences in the hand and machine counted ballots that some are holding up as a reason for fraud. DU's Ida Briggs and I were heavily involved in organizing the 2004 NH recount of votes that were hugely different from the polls (I believe the swing was 11% in Bush's favor and election 2000.) EI activists observed with an eagle eye as each ballot in the towns and precincts we had picked for their anomalies was hand-counted at the SoS office. Everything was right on the button -- no more than a vote off per precinct. NH is pretty squeaky clean, though there are always improvements needed everywhere. In NH, a random statistical audit of the paper ballots is needed.

[Pastiche423]

51. Than you very much for the explanation!

And thank you for all of the hard work you have done.

[aquart]

3. Yes, of course, dear.

Just like snatching candy from a whiny little baby.

[TheWatcher]

Kind of reminds me of the tone of most of your posts.

Perfect description actually.

You are incapable of being anything but an obnoxious boor.

[Justice Is Comin]

5. That might be McCain

:rofl:

[Glimmer of Hope]

6. Maybe some voters realized Obama's numbers were strong and decided to throw

their weight elsewhere? It is still early.

[babylonsister]

7. Only about 12% of the votes are in AFAIK. KO said it'll take 2 hours more

for all the results.

[billbuckhead]

19. Polls on black candidates running against whites are often wrong

It happened to Wilder, Gant, Ford and it will happen to Obama. I bet black voters will also BS pollsters and say Obama but vote for Hillary because the long positive relationship with the Clintons and betting Obama is a painful losing proposition in the general election.

[LiberalFighter]

27. I remember that

[screembloodymurder]

9. I don't believe it either.

It's a fix.

[ccpup]

12. I could've seen this one coming a mile away

Obama wins and no one questions the results. OF COURSE the results are honest and so on and so forth. If Hillary wins, she must have cheated. There's no way she could have won fair and square, etc and so on.

It's politics and things can change on a dime. A lot can be learned about a candidate's supporters by how they handle both the winning and the losing.

[Atman]

22. You're entirely missing the point.

Obama has been winning in the entrance and exit polling, he's been winning all day, and only AFTER the polls have closed do we discover this big Hillary surge. If it doesn't make you go "hmmmm" nothing will.

.

[ccpup]

24. there's a wonderful interactive map

here http://www.politico.com/nhprimaries/nhmap-popup.html that has each County and, as you pass over it, it gives the vote totals of those precincts that are 100%. In some of those, Hillary solidly wins. In others, Obama solidly wins and closer to what the Polls had him at yesterday.

In any case, I thought you'd enjoy the map.

[babylonsister]

26. I haven't said that. If Clinton wins, she deserves it. Onward and upward. nt

[DemCam]

36. so agree and love that u said it

[stillcool]

13. I'm taking screen shots...

I'm not feeling so good.

[mod mom]

40. watch this on NH machines

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x82119

[99th_Monkey]

14. I wouldn't put it past the Neocons to be buggering the vote for Hillary

especially since neocons REALLY WANT HER as the Dem nominee...someone they can "work with" win or lose in the General.

check out this little tidbit about how Hillary's slump had "depressed" the neocon scum:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_steven_l_080108_conservative_right_c.htm

[AndyA]

15. The media is manipulating us. Again.

Just like they've been doing with the "It's the Barack Obama Show! 24/7 Barack Barack Barack!"

They ignore Edwards because they don't want people to know about him. They're afraid of him.

Yes, something does stink. Just like the uncooked fish from last week's supper that got left out on the counter. (And that's bad, folks...don't ask me how I know... :blush: )

[madrchsod]

32. i`m starting to come around to your way of thinking

not on edwards,who i supported the last time around,but to the idea that the msm is doing this to john. he`s closer to dennis,who i support, and not that far apart from obama. hillary gives the media a perfect storm-black-white and male -female and old-new. edwards -obama that is their worst nightmare!

[Atman]

38. You're catching on...this election coverage is MARKETING DRIVEN!

The producers at CNN/MSNBC, et al, must be shitting bricks about how to cover this race. If it turns out to be a white guy vs. a black guy, anything and everything they say against the black guy will be Headline News, with people saying "how dare he say such a thing!" They'll over-compensate on their love for Obama just to prove they're really not all that white. And it will backfire. It always does.

.

[madrchsod]

43. i just finished reading hillary`s thesis about saul alinsky

and it finally dawned on me it just wasn`t dennis they want to silence.

[Occam Bandage]

16. Yeah, never seen polls be quite so useless.

[Sydnie]

18. Keep in mind the precincts that they are counting

the polls closest to the MA border closed early, so they may be more Hillary leaning. Give them time to count them all.

[babylonsister]

28. I'm hoping for the best, Sydnie. May the best man or woman win. nt

[Sydnie]

29. I so want that too

but I have my favorite and it has nothing to do with that they look like on the outside nor whether they sit to tinkle or not. :)

[babylonsister]

30. Well, there's that!

:rofl:

[politicasista]

31. Me too n/t

[OzarkDem]

20. Don't believe the polls

There was a lot of bogus poll data in 2006, trying to influence voters. Its even worse this time around. They major pollsters aren't reliable anymore.

[Raine]

21. Something smells really bad here

x(

[mentalsolstice]

23. Or perhaps HRC's sisters are showing up

I still think BO will win NH, but maybe not with the lead the expect. I'm just saying, don't underestimate a bunch of pissed off women.

[AlCzervik]

25. the only poll that counts is on election day.

[bigtree]

33. the bullshittery of the pundits and pollsters stinks

[Laura PourMeADrink]

35. wORST last night poll - Obama up 5%. She;s up 4. That is a

freakin 9 point swing at the minimum!! In one freakin night.

You are right - something stinks to high heaven.

[Jacobin]

37. In exit polls, 17% said they made up their minds TODAY

We are dealing with an electorate that is uneducated, uninvolved, easily swayed by whichever way the wind blows.

[seemslikeadream]

39. DIEBOLD SERVERS

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2633521&mesg_id=2633521










IMPEACH CHENEY




They Thought They Were Free - Read by Dave Emory

The Germans, 1933-45

Excerpt from pages 166-73 of "They Thought They Were Free" First published in 1955

By Milton Mayer

But Then It Was Too Late

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn’t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people’s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing.

"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

....

"Yes," I said.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, THE SHOCK DOCTRINE will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?—Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, ‘everyone’ is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there would be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’



Michael Parenti - Terrorism, Globalism & Conspiracy

"Coincidence Theory: By shear chance things just happen repeatedly and coincidentally to benefit their interests without any conscious connivance by them, which is most uncanny. There is also: Stupidity Theory, Innocence Theory, Momentary Aberration Theory, Incompetence Theory, Unintended Consequences Theory and Innocent Cultural Proclivities Theory."

- Michael Parenti

[truedelphi]

44. Little by little, Germany became a totalitarian state

of course, it can't be happening here!

[readmoreoften]

41. Why would they diebold Obama? He's as status quo as Hillary. No less pro corp or pro war really.

It's more likely that the emotional support of Obama has caused folks to overestimate his lead. It's a close race.

[JMDEM]

42. Sucks sucks sucks... nt.

[dailykoff]

45. See, NH paid no attention to Iowa, but they all caught Hill's boo hoo

and turned on a dime. Perfectly reasonable.

[book_worm]

46. No, apparently the exit polls showed a close race.

[nashville_brook]

47. obama isn't my guy, but i have to agree with you here. nt.

[kansasblue]

48. Interesting Fox News polling election day:

The poll consisted of 800 telephone interviews with Democratic primary voters in New Hampshire, conducted the evening of January 7 and throughout election-day on January 8.

Over half of Democratic primary voters (52 percent) would be very satisfied if Obama wins the Democratic party’s presidential nomination. The same is true of 41 percent if Clinton wins the nomination, and 32 percent if John Edwards wins the nomination.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,321191,00.html