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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:20 PM
Original message
SC voting machines not set to zero before voting started
SC voting machines not set to zero before voting started
Sun, 01/20/2008 - 00:14 - Wire Services

The voting machines in Horry County, South Carolina were not reset to zero before the first voters came to cast their ballots, the state's Election Commission admitted today.

The Commission stated that the technicians perform a "clear and test" procedure on all machines prior to the machines accepting votes, but in this case, it was not carried out before people arrived at the precincts to vote.

"This resets the test votes recorded on the machine to zero," a press release by the Commission read. "Without performing this measure, the voting system will not allow machines to be opened for voting on election day."

But the Commission blamed the delay on human error, even though Election Systems & Software voting machines used in South Carolina were decertified by the California Secretary of State last year, after the company refused to provide information necessary to review the voting systems, as required by state law


http://presscue.com/node/42621
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm glad the Repubs went first.
Thank goodness. I hope they can figure stuff out by our election.
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yourout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. This should be so simple......get box of ballots, open ballots, get box of pens, open box of pens,..
Get big hammer, smash machine into unrecognizable pieces.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. No pens needed. SC uses touchscreens statewide.
Makes it all so simple!
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. The point should be ... there are no proven incidents of deliberate
tampering and this is not a partisan issue. Our elections systems have to keep in mind the human factor, which has lagged behind consumer products.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. You ignore the fact that ES&S software in escrow in california did NOT
match the software in use here during the last election. hence their machines were BANNED from use. That wasn't an "error". Millions, if not billions were at play. 25 million dollars in one county alone.
Not zeroing is not a simple error. zeroing and printing out a zero tpae is the first thing you do on eleciton day with any machine.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Exactly, any machine ... so the sooner we lose the paperless
systems the better.
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. "There are no proven incidents of deliberate tampering."
How could there be if the whole election takes place in cyber-space?

This is one of the most empty-headed comments you can ever hear about these touchscreen machines.

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!!!! If you could prove it one way or the other, there would be no issue!

This is not hard to see.

But the voter should not be forced to prove something that's essentially unprovable! The computer scientists tell us over and over that it's "trivially easy" especially for an insider (a so-called technician from the company) to maliciously program the machine in such a way that the whole fraud is completely undetectable. The elections officials should be forced to show beyond a reasonable doubt that your vote is being handled in such a way that you can be sure it is counted properly. Obviously there's no such thing as 100% security or transparency, but the absolute worst of all possible worlds is the touchscreen where:

YOUR VOTE IS COUNTED IN TOTAL SECRECY BY MACHINES PROGRAMMED BY A PRIVATE COMPANY AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO VERIFY THE RESULTS!!!

This strikes me as sheer insanity. Of course, I'm sure the mainstream media will continue to find plenty of airheads who will claim that everything is hunkey-dorey.

In the meantime, we will continue to "elect" people like GWB and everybody will shake their heads in bemusement at the stupidity of the American people and at how lousy the exit polls are nowadays and then laugh about the loonies and conspiracy theorists who are screaming bloody murder about something a modestly gifted five-year-old would have no trouble understanding. It's the 5,000 lb canary in the room and it's about to breathe its last.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I quit religion because it couldn't prove anything. As a scientist,
I can test an hypothesis. Having examined the Diebold code myself after the first accusations were raised, I can state w/confidence that no one, unobserved, tried any funny business.

Now, that said, others have examined the code as well. For example, every proprietary system is inspected by academics, professionals in my field. So, even in the technical literature, the issue is treated seriously and changes are taking effect.

Please, enuf caps ... I'm a computer engineer by training, a CTO by title and software don't scare me none. If it does you, please refer to authorities like Professor David Dill of http://www.verifiedvoting.com. I assure you, he's following best practices.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. What about these?
Edited on Mon Jan-21-08 12:19 AM by stillcool47


Brennan Center For Justice AT NYU School of Law
THE MACHINERY OF DEMOCRACY:
PROTECTING ELECTIONS
IN AN ELECTRONIC WORLD
BRENNAN CENTER TASK FORCE
ON VOTING SYSTEM SECURITY,
LAWRENCE NORDEN, CHAIR
http://brennan.3cdn.net/a56eba8edf74e9e12e_r2m6b86s2.pdf



Security Analysis of the Diebold AccuBasic Interpreter
David Wagner David Jefferson Matt Bishop
Voting Systems Technology Assessment Advisory Board (VSTAAB)

with the assistance of:
Chris Karlof Naveen Sastry
University of California, Berkeley
February 14, 2006

Memory card attacks are a real threat: We determined that anyone who has access to a
memory card of the AV-OS, and can tamper it (i.e. modify its contents), and can have
the modi ed cards used in a voting machine during election, can indeed modify the election
results from that machine in a number of ways. The fact that the the results are incorrect
cannot be detected except by a recount of the original paper ballots.
 Harri Hursti's attack does work: Mr. Hursti's attack on the AV-OS is de nitely real. He was
indeed able to change the election results by doing nothing more than modifying the contents
of a memory card. He needed no passwords, no cryptographic keys, and no access to any
other part of the voting system, including the GEMS election management server.
 Interpreter bugs lead to another, more dangerous family of vulnerabilities: However, there is
another category of more serious vulnerabilities we discovered that go well beyond what Mr.
Hursti demonstrated, and yet require no more access to the voting system than he had. These
vulnerabilities are consequences of bugs|16 in all|in the implementation of the AccuBasic
interpreter for the AV-OS. These bugs would have no e ect at all in the absence of deliberate
tampering, and would not be discovered by any amount of functionality testing; but they
could allow an attacker to completely control the behavior of the AV-OS. An attacker could
change vote totals, modify reports, change the names of candidates, change the races being
voted on, or insert his own code into the running rmware of the machine.
 Successful attacks can only be detected by examining the paper ballots: There would be no
way to know that any of these attacks occurred; the canvass procedure would not detect any
anomalies, and would just produce incorrect results. The only way to detect and correct the
problem would be by recount of the original paper ballots, e.g. during the 1 percent manual
recount.

 The bugs are classic, and can only be found by source code review: Finding these bugs was only
possible through close study of the source code. All of them are classic security flaws, including
bu er overruns, array bounds violations, double-free errors, format string vulnerabilities, and
several others. There may, of course, be additional bugs, or kinds of bugs, that we did not find.
---------------------------------------------

Impact. The consequence of these vulnerabilities is that any person with unsupervised access to
a memory card for sucient time to modify it, or who is in a position to switch a malicious memory
card for a good one, has the opportunity to completely compromise the integrity of the electronic
tallies from the machine using that card.
Many of these vulnerabilities allow the attacker to seize control of the machine. In particular,
they can be used to replace some of the software and the rmware on the machine with code of
the attacker's choosing. At that point, the voting system is no longer running the code from the
vendor, but is instead running illegitimate code from the attacker. Once the attacker can replace
the running code of the machine, the attacker has full control over all operation of the machine.
Some of the consequences of this kind of compromise could include:
could be performed at any point during the day. They could be performed selectively, based
on knowledge about running tallies during the day. For instance, the attack code could wait
until the end of the day, look at the electronic tallies accumulated so far, and choose to modify
them only if they are not consistent with the attacker's desired outcome.
 The attack could print fraudulent zero reports and summary reports to prevent detection.
 The attack could modify the contents of the memory card in any way, including tampering
with the electronic vote counts and electronic ballot images stored on the card.
 The attack could erase all traces of the attack to prevent anyone from detecting the attack
after the fact. For instance, once the attack code has gained control, it could overwrite
the malicious AccuBasic object code (.abo le) stored on the memory card with legitimate
AccuBasic object code, so that no amount of subsequent forensic investigation will uncover
any evidence of the compromise.
 It is even conceivable that there is a way to exploit these vulnerabilities so that changes could
persist from one election to another. For instance, if the rmware or software resident on
the machine can be modi ed or updated by running code, then the attack might be able to
modify the rmware or software in a permanent way, a ecting future elections as well as the
current election. In other words, these vulnerabilities mean that a procedural lapse in one
election could potentially a ect the integrity of a subsequent election. However, we would
not be able to verify or refute this possibility without experimentation with real systems.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is conceivable that the attack might be able to propagate from machine to machine, like a
computer virus. For instance, if an uninfected memory card is inserted into an infected voting
machine, then the compromised voting machine could replace the AccuBasic object code on
that memory card with a malicious AccuBasic script. At that point, the memory card has
been infected, and if it is ever inserted into a second uninfected machine, the second machine
will become infected as soon as it runs the AccuBasic script.
------------------------------------------

In addition, most of the bugs we found could be used to crash the machine. This might
disenfranchise voters or cause long lines. These bugs could be used to selectively trigger a crash only on some machines, in some geographic areas, or based on certain conditions, such as which
candidate has received more votes. For instance, it would be possible to write a malicious AccuBasic script so that, when the operator prints a summary report at the end of the day, the script examines the vote counters and either crashes or continues operating normally according to which candidate is in the lead.
Unfortunately, the ability of malicious AccuBasic scripts to crash the machine is currently embedded in the architecture of the interpreter. Any in nite loop in the AccuBasic script immediately translates into an in nite loop in the interpreter (which causes the machine to stop responding, and is indistinguishable from a crash), and any in nite recursion in the AccuBasic script translates into stack over row in the interpreter (which could corrupt stack memory or crash the machine).
http://www.votetrustusa.org/pdfs/California_Folder/DieboldReport.pdf


http://itpolicy.princeton.edu/voting/
Security Analysis of the Diebold AccuVote-TS Voting Machine
Executive Summary
Ariel J. Feldman, J. Alex Halderman, and Edward W. Felten
http://itpolicy.princeton.edu/voting/summary.html

Main Findings The main findings of our study are:

1. Malicious software running on a single voting machine can steal votes with little if any risk of detection. The malicious software can modify all of the records, audit logs, and counters kept by the voting machine, so that even careful forensic examination of these records will find nothing amiss. We have constructed demonstration software that carries out this vote-stealing attack.

2. Anyone who has physical access to a voting machine, or to a memory card that will later be inserted into a machine, can install said malicious software using a simple method that takes as little as one minute. In practice, poll workers and others often have unsupervised access to the machines.

3. AccuVote-TS machines are susceptible to voting-machine viruses — computer viruses that can spread malicious software automatically and invisibly from machine to machine during normal pre- and post-election activity. We have constructed a demonstration virus that spreads in this way, installing our demonstration vote-stealing program on every machine it infects.

4. While some of these problems can be eliminated by improving Diebold's software, others cannot be remedied without replacing the machines' hardware. Changes to election procedures would also be required to ensure security.


Security Assessment of the Diebold Optical Scan Voting Terminal
A. Kiayias L. Michel A. Russell A. A. Shvartsman
UConn VoTeR Center and
Department of Computer Science and Engineering,
University of Connecticut
{akiayias,ldm,acr,aas}@cse.uconn.edu
with the assistance of
M. Korman, A. See, N. Shashidhar, D. Walluck
October 30, 2006
------------------------------------------
In particular we show that even if the memory card is sealed and pre-election testing is performed, one can carry out a devastating array of attacks against an election using only off-the-shelf equipment and without having ever to access the card physically or opening the AV-OS system box. Our attacks include the following:
1. Neutralizing candidates. The votes cast for a candidate are not recorded.
2. Swapping candidates. The votes cast for two candidates are swapped.
3. Biased Reporting. The votes are counted correctly by the terminal, but they are reported incorrectly using conditionally-triggered biases.
Our attacks exploit the serial communication capability of the AV-OS and demonstrate how the attacker can easily take control of the machine and force it to compromise its sealed-in resident memory card. Moreover, we demonstrate how one can make the AV-OS appear to be uncompromised to an evaluator that performs a pre-election test by voting hand-counted ballots, or to an evaluator that examines the audit reports that are produced by the terminal. A corrupted terminal will in fact appear to be faithfully reporting any election procedure that is conducted prior to the day of the election, only to misreport its results on the day of the election.
We also present a low-tech “digital ballot stuffing” attack that is made possible due to the mechanical characteristics of the optical scan reader. This simple attack enables any voter to vote an arbitrary number of times using two Post-it-notes. This attack makes it imperative to have the terminal under constant supervision during elections.
The vulnerability assessment provided in this paper is based only on experimentation with the system. At no point in time had we used, or had access to, internal documentation from the manufacturer or the vendor, including internal machine specifications, source code of the machine’s operating system, layout of the data on the memory card, or the source of the GEMS ballot design and tabulation software. We developed attacks and software that compromises the elections from first principles, by observing system’s behavior and interaction with its environment. Based on this fact, we conclude that attackers with access to the components of the AVOS system can reverse-engineer it in ways that critically compromise its security, discover the vulnerabilities presented herein and develop the attacks that exploit them.
----------------------------------------------
4.1.3 Compromised Election Results
An election is deemed corrupted when the miscounted results get tabulated into the overall election totals. If this is performed manually using the printed receipts that are produced by a corrupted terminal, the corruption of an election would be immediate. The results can also be tabulated electronically, by consolidating memory cards using a terminal and communicating such results to the central tabulation system implemented in GEMS.
The compromised cards that contained the improperly aligned counters are accepted by the central tabulation system without any warning or any other indication that they may be corrupted.
Figure 9: The prepared ballot used for the re-voting attack. Ballot stuffing is as easy as obtaining a couple of standard Post-It notes if the terminal is not closely monitored during an election.
of an election would be immediate. The results can also be tabulated electronically, by consolidating memory cards using a terminal and communicating such results to the central tabulation system implemented in GEMS.
The compromised cards that contained the improperly aligned counters are accepted by the central tabulation system without any warning or any other indication that they may be corrupted.
4.2 Multiple Voting Using Two Post-It R

In this section we present a simple low-tech attack that is based on the following facts regarding the ballot feeding mechanism of the AV-OS terminal:
• The ballot-feed sensor is located on the right side of the slot. Feeding paper into the left side does not trigger the feed mechanism.
• Once a ballot is fed into the AV-OS, the rollers cease. It is thus possible to retract a ballot from the other side of the rollers. This is easily done even when the AV-OS has been properly locked into position atop the ballot box. Moreover, this can be done very quickly, so that the amount of extra votes is only limited to the amount of time the voter is able to spend alone with the ballot box on election day.
• The machine is unable to recognize ballots that have already been cast. Although the AV-OS verifies an election identifier which is global to every ballot in a precinct, it allows the same ballot to be cast as many times as desired.
UConn VoTeR Center Security Assessment of the Diebold Optical Scan Voting Terminal 13
We demonstrate how this vulnerability can be very easily exploited by any voter during the actual election if she is allowed to operate the machine without being observed by a poll-worker. See Figure 9 for an example of an AV-OS ballot with the two Post-it notes affixed to its side. The attacker in this case is allowed to use the machine while unattended and he can pull out and re-insert the shown ballot so that the same vote is cast multiple times.

http://voter.engr.uconn.edu/voter/Report-OS_files/uconn_report-os.pdf


Optical Scan Ballot Design
Douglas W. Jones
Sept 15, 2005
------------------------------
Resource requirements: The perpetrator must be in a position to control the design and printing of the ballots. For attacks targeted at the precinct level, this means that the perpetrator must either work for the ballot printer or the county. The printer can introduce alignment errors, while the county controls all of the textual content. For attacks that exploit different ballot designs from county to county, the perpetrator must either control many county election offices or must work in a supervisory role at the state level. The state officer who approves ballot content can do quite a bit if he simply gives a free rein to incompetent county election administrators in counties controlled by the opposition while extending help primarily to election administrators in counties favoring the ruling party.
Potential gain:
Rates of voter error have exceeded 10% in some jurisdictions during some elections. If this error can be controlled so that these high rates occur primarily in communities where opposition voters are likely to vote, the net benefit, in terms of the final election total, could easily be on the order of 1% or more.
Likelihood of detection:
Anything involving ballot design is public record, and the ballots themselves remain to be examined for 22 months after the election. Should a candidate suspect that there has been deliberate misprinting of index marks or voting targets, this can easily be detected if the ballots are available for examination. There is a common catch-22 here: In many jurisdictions, attempts to examine the actual ballots have been blocked because the person wanting to make the examination had no proof that there was anything wrong. The proof, of course, rested in the ballots themselves. Bad human factors in ballot design is so widespread that any deliberate manipulation of the design can be easily hidden or blamed on incompetent underlings or local officials.
http://vote.nist.gov/threats/papers/optical_scan_ballot_design.pdf

Ballot Definition Files
No Review Is Provided
for a Key Component of Voting System Software

Flawed Ballot Definition Files on Optical Scanners and Punch Card Machines
While the cause of many election miscounts is not clear, many other miscounts suggest that the ballot definitions were programmed incorrectly. Here are several examples of elections in which errors in the ballot definition file definitely caused the problems:
November 2000. Bernalillo County, New Mexico. A flawed ballot definition file for the presidential
election caused 67,000 absentee and early-voting ballots to be counted incorrectly by the Diebold
AccuVote OS optical scan machine. The ballot programmer had neglected to link the candidates'
names to their respective parties.14

September 2002. Union County, Florida. A programming error caused ES&S Model 100 machines to
read 2,642 Democratic and Republican votes as entirely Republican in the September 2002 election.

November 2002, Wayne County, North Carolina. A programming error caused the Optech Eagle optical
scan machines to skip several thousand party-line votes, both Republican and Democrat. Correcting
the error turned up 5,500 more votes and reversed the outcome for the House District 11 state
representative race.20

April 2003, Lake County, Illinois. An ES&S ballot programming error failed to account for "no
candidate" listings in some races on the ballot, and results were placed next to the names of the
wrong candidates in four races. Correcting the problem changed the outcomes in some races.21

May 2004, Craighead County, Arkansas. The chip programmed by ES&S for the county's optical scanner
gave one candidate all the votes for constable. A manual recount revealed the error. 22

November 2004, Medford, Wisconsin. ES&S programmers failed to set up the optical scanners to read
straight-party votes. About 600 of the 2,256 ballots cast were not counted.23

June 2006, Pottawattamie County, Iowa. ES&S set up the ballot data and created the test deck, but failed to account for candidate rotation, so votes were tallied wrong in the rotated races.24
The following miscount strongly suggests that the candidates were simply switched in the ballot data of the computer in "one ward."

August 2002. Clay County, Kansas. The tabulation machine showed that one candidate for commissioner
had won, but a hand recount showed that his opponent had won by a landslide. In one ward, the
computer had mistakenly reversed the totals.25
Though the cause of the following problem wasn't fully analyzed, the symptoms suggest that the ballot definition file in the central tabulation computer didn't match those on the data packs.

November 2002. Baldwin County, Alabama. The ES&S Optech 3P Eagle optical scanners printed out
results of the gubernatorial election when the polls closed. Then the data packs were taken to the
central computer to be tabulated, and the tabulation machine, which gave different results, showed
the election was won by the wrong candidate. Three other counties had the same problem, but they
corrected the problem by typing in the vote totals rather than reading the data packs.26
The ballot program in the memory packs read the ballots incorrectly. The vendor, ES&S, accepted
responsibility for the programming error and paid for a hand recount. 15

September 2002. Robeson County, North Carolina. Ballot tabulating machines failed to work properly in 31 of 41 precincts. Local election officials said the problem was the result of a software glitch, and ballots had to be recounted. There had been a problem in the programming of the memory cards. 16


November 2002. Scurry County, Texas. A landslide victory for two commissioner candidates caused poll workers to question the results. The chip in the ES&S 650 contained an incorrect ballot program. ES&S sent a new chip, and the county officials also counted the votes by hand. The opposing candidates actually won by large margins.18
http://www.votersunite.org/info/BallotProgramming.pdf
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Not a single incident of malicious tampering. A listing of vulnerabilities
as I described. How technical do you want me to get?

Look, before anyone here even heard of the issue, I was talking to the League of Women voters, trying to get them to reverse their stand on DREs. A paper trail is necessary, though not all computer scientists agree it's the most secure system. There's a tradeoff ...

So here we are, with a record and history. My assertion remains uncontradicted.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. .

I accept that you don't consider ES&S switching software, and withholding legally required disclosure malicious, or otherwise remarkable.

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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Switching software ... you mean upgrades, don't you? Yup, part of
my business. And I was pointing out ES&S's political connections to the public before anyone here had heard of DREs

http://www.wordsunltd.com/voting_machine_fiasco.htm
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Ahh yup. I'm so cool, informed, seasoned, and connected.

Greg Palast, blah blah... Before anyone of you blah, blah.

Notice how impressed everyone is??

But I got it that you think it's ok for a vendor to load uncertified software into a voting machine.

That's clear enough.

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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Apparently, the facts never stopped you before and this time, you're
continuing a pattern. If you're referencing the time Diebold applied Microsoft patches to correct a clock error - yes, the certifying authority was informed and approved the upgrade. Got another circumstance?
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. That would be ES&S, as I already stated. Yes. There is a pattern.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. What pattern? Last time was Diebold, applying a MS patch. This
incident is something else entirely and has nothing to do with upgrades in the field. Apparently, they sold a different model from the one certified ... they'll be fined. Again, this has nothing to do with deliberate election fraud.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Get off your "deliberate" rant. The OP "has nothing to do with deliberate election fraud"
You don't need to have a deliberate attempt at sabotaging the system to have screwed up elections.

This forum is about a dysfunctional voting system, be it unintentional or otherwise.

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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. This forum is about election reform ... and I'm pointing out that the
venomous atmosphere doesn't help anyone. Heck, you can't keep a civil tone w/me and we're supposed to be on the same side! But I'll keep pointing out when posts, misleading or otherwise, stray into the area of my professional expertise.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. What's venomous?
You're off-topic, and who knows what else, as usual.

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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Perahps you could help me?
Edited on Mon Jan-21-08 12:45 PM by stillcool47
Excuse me for not being as brilliant as yourself, but from what I've read in these studies there would be no evidence of tampering. I would greatly appreciate it, if you could point me towards the independent published reports, that refute the claims made by these obviously flawed studies. Gosh, it seemed so obvious to me, that the simple measures that each of these studies suggested to insure accuracy in our election systems, would be more the focus than having to produce proof of something that is not provable.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. What flawed studies? They point out vulnerabilities. I won't discuss
what I know about security ... suffice it to say I was a consultant to FDNY for their WAN project.

And I'm not responsible for my intelligence, nor for your insecurity, so I do try to grant everyone the presumption of respect. Once I remember you as someone who disregards the truth, that tone is dropped.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. So you were a consultant.

Thanks for sharing.

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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. You are disregarding..
many of the critical points made in these studies. I'd appreciate some documentation of your claims which refute the analysis of those publishing these reports. These studies repeatedly state that tampering with optical scan tabulators would only be discovered if a hand count of a percentage of ballots were conducted immediately following the machine tabulation of votes. These studies also state that there is no advantage to optical scan voting systems over other DRE's without any paper at all, unless a standard audit is required after each election. You state emphatically that your knowledge precludes any opinions to the contrary. I do not believe it is too much to ask, that you provide the information that counters the claims of these studies that tampering would not be able to be detected. Please.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Your assumptions are incorrect, hence your disturbing conclusion
I haven't had to refute anything ... the literature is on my side. Every point you raise, I have as well in the past. But if we can't on agree on the simple fact: no accusation of deliberate tampering has been proven, then yes, if you search you'll find my comments on the need for audits. In fact, we had a lively debate over the size of the population - sorry you missed it.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Jeez...information is all I'm looking for...
excuse the shit out of me for asking a self proclaimed expert in the field, for supplying a little data against the claim that attacks against these voting systems would not be detected.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. All Freeda wants to say is that there are no proven cases of deliberate fraud
Edited on Mon Jan-21-08 04:36 PM by Wilms
That's pretty much, coincidently, what the vendors say, and something that seems real important for her to push...regardless of the topic.

Go figure.

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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. How could there be?
if in study after study the claim is made that attacks on these voting systems would be undetectable? Is this stance important in some way, towards the effort to require states to enact the simple measures deemed critical to secure our voting systems? Ah well, I guess I'll go on about my business and try to understand the complexities of proven ways to change an election, without her expert contribution.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Well, "her expert contribution" IS something to marvel at. n/t

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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Why should I excuse the shit out of you when you're pushing it yourself?
I won't go into the details, because you're not an industry professional, but the real ones are already addressing this issue in the technical literature.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Gee. Why don't paternalistic posts get more respect? n/t
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Because in real life, I don't need anything from you. I post for the
audience capable of appreciating the information.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. And it's warmly received.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. I you ever want to start over, see my tagline for details n/t
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. You won't go into details?
You can't provide another published report? Is it top secret? I would think that anything that could definitively refute these 'not real' experts, would be widely distributed. Why should you be taken at your own word, by your own say-so? Especially with the tone and vehemence you express. As a self proclaimed expert you offer nothing. Thank you for enlightening me about the absolute worthlessness of your posts. This, is my last exchange with you.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-21-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I can't exchange w/anyone regarding security subjects. I'm just
happy not to carry FDNY root passwords anymore. They have my reports and I'm free to live a real life.
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riqster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. Who provides the technicians-ES&S or the government? nt
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. What's the difference?
They're the same entity.

IMO the technicians should be ordinary citizens, or at least the citizenry should be able to monitor the entire process.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. the vendor, in this case Es&s provide the techinicians. The machines are actually
run by pollworkers. Both the vendors and the gov't love to say that we humans just aren't smart enough to use machines.
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Melissa G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. K&R #5
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-20-08 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
8. 8
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