Election Reform, Fraud, & Related News, Tuesday 03/11/08

[Melissa G]

Election Reform, Fraud, & Related News, Tuesday 03/11/08

Ah, The Long Awaited Day! Mashed into bits! Check out post 5 for details!


Esteemed DUer's, please consider taking a moment (or more)
to graciously participate by posting Election Reform, Fraud, & Related News on this thread.


If you can:
1. Post stories and announcements you find on the web.


2. Post stories using the Spring 2006 Edition of "Election Fraud and Reform News Directory" listed here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x407240

3. Re-post stories and announcements you find on DU, providing a link to the original thread with thanks to the Original Poster, too.


4. Start a discussion thread by re-posting a story you see on this thread.




Please "Recommend" for the Greatest Page (it's the link just below).
Thank You!

[Melissa G]

1. States n/t

[Melissa G]

5. FL- 'Mashed Into Bits': Florida Touch-Screen Voting Machines

Thanks to bradblog for the pic!

BLOGGED BY Brad Friedman ON 3/10/2008 4:24PM
'Mashed Into Bits': Florida Touch-Screen Voting Machines - 28,000 of them - to be Crushed, Recycled, Repurposed...
One Destined for a Museum, Some Sent to an Election Near You, Others to be Gone Forever...Finally...
Blogged by Brad from the road...

The report is music to our ears, and far too long in coming. From today's Tampa Tribune...

TAMPA - Workers today started loading more than 3,000 touch-screen voting machines destined to be resold, disassembled or crunched into bits by a recycler as Hillsborough County begins changing how ballots are cast and counted.
...
The devices will be replaced by machines that scan and record paper ballots as part of a legislatively mandated change requiring a paper trail after elections.
...
The machines being hauled away by Creative Recycling of Tampa were 6 years old. The company has a state contract to dispose of 27,785 of the touch-screen machines in counties using them.
Hillsborough County's Supervisor of Elections, Buddy Johnson, offers the best use of the machines --- he says in the article that "he wanted to donate one to the county's history museum" --- but beware, while some are to be scrapped, some of these bad machines may show up at an election near you...

snip
Any pieces that can't be sold will wind up shoved into a two-story-tall machine that will mash them into bits that will be separated and recycled.

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5786

[Melissa G]

9. FL- Hillsborough Hauls Away Touch-Screen Machines

Bigger pic but without the caption I like...:evilgrin:


By NEIL JOHNSON of The Tampa Tribune

Published: March 10, 2008

TAMPA - Workers today started loading more than 3,000 touch-screen voting machines destined to be resold, disassembled or crunched into bits by a recycler as Hillsborough County begins changing how ballots are cast and counted.

The devices will be replaced by machines that scan and record paper ballots as part of a legislatively mandated change requiring a paper trail after elections.

The lack of a paper trail was a short-coming of the old machines that recorded votes on a computer card.

For Hillsborough, the change will cost roughly $3.2 million for the new machines after the Legislature voted in May that all counties using touch screens convert to the optical-scanning devices. The state will kick in an additional $2.5 million, Hillsborough County Supervisor of Elections Buddy Johnson said.

The machines being hauled away by Creative Recycling of Tampa were 6 years old. The company has a state contract to dispose of 27,785 of the touch-screen machines in counties using them.

Of those, 3,730 will come from Hillsborough. The county will keep about 20 of the touch-screen machines. Some will be used March 25, when two precincts in the county take part in a special legislative primary election, and April 15 for the special legislative general election.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/mar/10/hillsborough-hauls-away-touch-screen-voting-machin/

[Melissa G]

6. IA-Culver: tighter oversight needed in purchase of voting machines

Culver: tighter oversight needed in purchase of voting machines

Associated Press - March 11, 2008 1:14 PM ET

DES MOINES, Iowa (AP) - Governor Culver wants more oversight when it comes to buying voting machines.

Culver wants Secretary of State Michael Mauro to work with the Department of Administrative Services on the purchase. The department's director, unlike Mauro, reports directly to Culver.

The governor's request will be included in an amendment to a Senate bill that outlines Mauro's plan to buy the machines.

The $8.5 million plan calls for the state to pay for the new equipment so every county has machines with paper ballots that can be recounted if necessary.

Culver was secretary of state before Mauro. Spokesman Brad Anderson says the governor wants to make sure Iowa gets the best deal possible.

Mauro says he doesn't mind as long as counties get the new voting machines.

http://www.woi-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=7998608&nav=1LFX

[Melissa G]

7. NJ- Voting machine errors spur independent analysis

Woot NEW JERSEY!:applause:

Voting machine errors spur independent analysis
by Diane C. Walsh/The Star-Ledger Tuesday March 11, 2008, 2:35 PM
The executive board of the Constitutional Officers Association of New Jersey unanimously approved a resolution today calling for an independent analysis of the state's voting machines since errors were uncovered in the presidential primary results.

"We want to make sure there's absolutely no question about the integrity of the election process," said Michael Dressler, the Bergen County surrogate who heads the state association.

Union County Clerk Joanne Rajoppi, who was the first to discover the errors, urged her colleagues in the association to press for the analysis. Already, Rajoppi contacted Edward Felten, a professor of computer science and public affairs at Princeton University, to test machines in her county.

Sequoia Voting Systems, the manufacturer of New Jersey's voting machines, concluded that poll workers pushed the wrong buttons on the control panels, resulting in the errors. The discrepancies involve voter turnout, not the tallies showing the winners of the races.
When Rajoppi double-checked the result from the Feb. 5 presidential primary she found on a handful of machines the number of Democrat and Republicans casting their ballots did not match up when the cartridge printouts from the machines were compared against the paper-tape back-up inside the devices. At least four other counties, Bergen, Gloucester, Middlesex and Mercer, identified the same errors.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/03/voting_machine_errors_spur_ind.html

[Melissa G]

8. FL- Changing voting machines is an expensive reality

Changing voting machines is an expensive reality

By PATRICIA STEELE, DAILY SUN

BUSHNELL — Supervisor of Elections offices throughout Florida are in a state of flux.

It’s a case of d/ja vu.

After the confusion of hanging and pregnant chads during the national election in 2000, Florida lawmakers ordered election offices statewide to find a better way the following year.

In Sumter County, the better way was the iVotronic Touch Screen machines, or so county officials thought. After all, there was no paper to punch, no chads to hang, just a screen to read, touch and vote electronically.

But in 2006, new questions arose in Florida about a voting system that did not leave a paper trail. Florida legislators went back to the drawing board and came up with yet another way to vote, which included scrapping the fairly new touch-screen voting machines Sumter had purchased.
http://www.thevillagesdailysun.com/articles/2008/03/11/news/news01.txt

[Melissa G]

10. FL- Touch-screen voting has its grand finale

Palm Beach County touch-screen voting machines get final use today in 19 municipal elections

Touch-screen voting has its grand finale

By Mark Hollis | South Florida Sun-Sentinel
March 11, 2008

Voters go to the polls today to cast ballots in 19 municipal elections in Palm Beach County, including key races in Boca Raton and Wellington.

The elections are historic. They are the last scheduled use of electronic touch-screen voting machines.

Later this week, Palm Beach County will sell 4,000 Sequoia touch screens to recyclers. Any money the sale raises will go toward paying down the estimated $4.7 million bill the county owes on the purchase of the machines in 2002.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-flpelection0311pnmar11,0,7136854.story

[Melissa G]

13. MS- Your vote counts

Your vote counts
Tuesday, March 11, 2008
By CHERIE WARD
PASCAGOULA -- Election Commissioner Robert Williams said today "Mississippi counts" during the presidential primary election.

"It's our chance," Williams said. "We get a say-so in this election."

Polls open at 7 a.m. today and voters will have a chance to cast a ballot for presidential, congressional and senatorial candidates until 7 p.m.

Williams said the county has 425 voting machines and today's election requires usage of 303 in 40 precincts. He said the smaller precincts will have two to three machines with the larger precincts having more than 20.

"Ocean Springs Civic Center will have about 20 machines," Williams said, "and Gautier Convention Center will have 22. Those are some of the largest we have."

Commissioner Danny Glascox said the voting machines have been checked, rechecked and then checked again. The commissioners spent the weekend placing the machines in the precincts and fielding last minute questions from poll workers.

http://www.gulflive.com/news/mississippipress/index.ssf?/base/news/120523052191910.xml

[Melissa G]

16. MS- Lines grow at Jackson precincts

Lines grow at Jackson precincts
The Clarion-Ledger • March 11, 2008

1:30 p.m. in Jackson
About 150 people have cast ballots at the Jackson Medical Mall so far today — all of them in the Democratic primary.

About 510 people from both parties are registered to vote at the west Jackson precinct.

11:30 a.m. in Jackson
The number of voters began to pick up just before noon today at the Forest Hill United Methodist Church at the corner of Raymond and Maddox roads in south Jackson.

More than half a dozen people stood in line at the Democratic polling table, and just more than 400 Democrats had voted since the polls opened at 7 a.m.

However, there was no line at the Republican polling table, and only 12 Republicans had voted.

http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080311/BIZ/303110002

[Melissa G]

17. MS- Some in state head to polls in the rain

Some in state head to polls in the rain

From staff and AP reports

<03/11/08>

Early voter turnout today in Warren County and across the state was a mixed bag, with participation appearing heaviest in areas offering both presidential and congressional primaries.

Secretary of State Delbert Hosemann predicted a light to moderate turnout of voters.

Besides the presidential primary, which has focused national attention on the state, Mississippians are voting on two rare open congressional seats.

snip

In some areas, circuit clerks' offices said morning rain may have slowed early voters. Rain was reported from areas of north Mississippi to the Gulf Coast.

In Warren County, polls opened on time and machines appeared to be in working order.
"There's no problems early," Warren County Democratic Executive Committee chairman Mary Katherine Brown said. Precincts farthest from the courthouse are expected to be the last areas to report vote totals, Brown said.
http://www.vicksburgpost.com/articles/2008/03/11/news/news03.txt

[Melissa G]

19. MN- Instant-runoff voting in Minneapolis unlikely in 2009

Instant-runoff voting in Minneapolis unlikely in 2009
The election director doubts the city will have the proper equipment in place by then.

By Steve Brandt, Star Tribune

Last update: March 11, 2008 - 10:10 AM

Minneapolis probably won't be ready to use a new voter-approved multiple-choice voting system in next year's election, the city's top election official said Friday.

"I don't believe that the city of Minneapolis will be ready for a ranked-choice voting election with equipment in 2009," said Election Director Cindy Reichert in an interview after giving the City Council a status report.

The system, also called instant-runoff voting, allows voters to rank three candidates for an office in order of preference. City voters approved it in 2006 for use in 2009, unless the council adopts an ordinance that spells out why the city isn't ready.

The lengthy schedule for getting the equipment bought, certified by federal and state authorities and delivered makes instant-runoff voting unlikely in 2009, Reichert said.
http://www.startribune.com/politics/local/16405066.html

[Melissa G]

20. FL- Is the answer for Florida's primary woes in the mail?

From Patrick Oppmann
CNN

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- Is the answer for Florida's primary woes in the mail?


A revote by mail in Florida could cost about $6 million, and no one knows who would pay for it.

A mail-in ballot is one option being considered to solve the quandary facing state and national officials trying to figure out what to do with the state's discounted primary election.

The problem began last year, when Florida and Michigan challenged Democratic party rules and moved their primaries to earlier in the year. That gamble, aimed to make their contests more relevant, backfired in a big way.

The Democratic National Committee ruled that both states' delegates would not be seated at the party convention. All the Democratic candidates agreed not to campaign in Florida and Michigan before the primary. The GOP also penalized both states.

With Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama locked in a tight race for the Democratic nomination, at about 100 delegates apart, Florida and Michigan's cache of 366 delegates could become a make-or-break prize.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/11/fla.primary.woes/

[Melissa G]

21. TX- Citizen Exit Polls for Project Vote Count

Below is an email from the crew that did exit polls in Travis county. If someone from this forum wants the attachments, PM me. They will be posted to the website listed soon.
Best,
Melissa


VoteRescuers,

Attached are the charted results of three of the five precincts where our valiant VoteRescue volunteers conducted Citizen Exit Polls for Project Vote Count last Tuesday at the 2008 Texas Primaries. All three are Travis County precincts. The two precincts covered in Williamson County will be posted as soon as discrepancies with the Election Day official results can be discussed with Williamson party officials. I definitely encourage you to read the General Notes and Analysis Considerations on Page 2 that Mitchell Stein has painstakingly authored with thoughtful detail. His assessments, which are based on discussions with Precinct Coordinators this past Saturday, are by no means the final word. Everyone is encouraged to evaluate the collected data and share whatever insights you might have via the mailing list by simply sending to <[e-mail]>. Also, sharing with others beyond the VoteRescue mailing is totally acceptable. In the next day or so, these will be posted to our website, as well.

[Melissa G]

24. TX- Texas presidential caucus winner? Check back in 18 days

Thanks to sonias for the post and the DU discussion here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=180x50484

Original message
Texas presidential caucus winner? Check back in 18 days
AAS 2/11/08
http://www.statesman.com/news/content/region/legislature/stories/03/11/0311txdems.html
(snip)
Unofficial and incomplete tallies posted online by the state party suggest that Obama won the caucuses by enough of a margin, 56 percent to 44 percent, that he could reap up to 38 delegates from the caucuses compared with Clinton's 29. If that happens, he stands to take more pledged delegates from Texas than Clinton (though that arithmetic leaves out how 35 Texas superdelegates, consisting of U.S. House members and party dignitaries, eventually shake out).

Not so, says Garry Mauro, coordinator of Clinton's Texas campaign. Mauro said his operatives assure him Clinton did as well in each state senatorial district at night as she did in voting during the day, and she may have outperformed her primary vote in caucuses in South Texas.

On Monday, the former party chairman who ushered into place the state's mixed system of a primary and caucus in the 1980s said the caucuses might deserve to fade. "We probably have to go to a pure primary," Bob Slagle said.

His thought was seconded by Molly Beth Malcolm, another former state party leader. "No one (else) has a process like this," Malcolm said. "It's time for a change."
http://www.statesman.com/news/content/region/legislature/stories/03/11/0311txdems.html

Oh lookie here, who wants to change our caucus system. Why it's none other than Bob Slagle and Molly Beth Malcolm. Well that settles it - they stay. And we'll fight like hell to keep them.


Sonia

[Melissa G]

2. National n/t

[Melissa G]

12. Study Shows Counting Ballots By Hand Inaccurate

:eyes: me being skeptical..sounds like they are using machines as the standard for accuracy
DUers who have read it chatting here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x498962


HCPB study. ER brilliant analysts, please analyze.
Edited on Tue Mar-11-08 11:32 AM by Melissa G
Got this from another list I subscribe to. Have yet to read. Seems implausible to me, but as I have said I have not read the study yet.
Best,
Melissa

http://www.krdo.com/Global/story.asp?S=7960710
Study Shows Counting Ballots By Hand Inaccurate
Updated: March 4, 2008 10:55 PM


By Political Reporter Marshall [e-mail]
COLORADO SPRINGS - An El Paso County test shows that counting ballots by hand is only accurate 25-percent of the time. In January, El Paso County Clerk and Recorder Bob Balink tested three types of hand counting on actual ballots from the 2006 election.

One group of four election judges sorted their ballots into two different piles, one for Candidate or Issue "A," the other for Candidate or Issue "B". The group then counted up the ballots and recorded the vote total.

Another group of eight election judges worked in pairs. One person would read off a ballot to the other person who would record the vote on a tally sheet. All ballots were counted and then recorded.

The last group was one individual counting all ballots himself.
"The three different methods of hand counting was off from the machine count 75% of the time," says El Paso County Clerk and Recorder Bob Balink. "About one out of every four races that were counted in the hand count study matched the machine, and three out of every four of the races that were counted didn't match the machine."

Click Here To Read Complete Hand Count Studyhttp://krdo.images.worldnow.com/images/INCOMING/HandCount.pdf _______________________________________________

[Melissa G]

15. Debugging Election Codes

Debugging Election Codes By Paul Spinrad
Are electronic voting machines secure?
No, says EECS professor David Wagner.

Before Congress passed the Help America Vote Act (HAVA) in 2002, voting machines were a low-profit niche product. But HAVA allocated more than $3.8 billion in federal funds to upgrade voting systems nationwide and to be spent within three years. It was a bonanza for voting machine vendors, who convinced most counties to replace their old, low-status paper-based systems with shiny new touchscreens. But they are not secure, and thanks to a report co-authored by Wagner, California now leads a growing multi-state movement to eliminate their potential threat to democracy and ensure accurate elections in the future.


EECS professor David Wagner considers the security issues for voting machines. Photo credit: Peg Skorpinski The machines were questioned almost immediately by grassroots activists like Bev Harris, whose Black Box Voting blog gathered news and focused concern about the machines’ trustworthiness. Soon, researchers and hackers discovered that, among other vulnerabilities, voting machines could be opened with ordinary keys from hotel mini-bars, and their vote counts could then be changed undetectably by simply swapping out their memory cards. In other words, any poll worker, driver, night watchman or other individual with unsupervised access to the machines could throw the results of a close election.

Wagner, a computer security expert, explains that the main problem with current voting machines is that they are built on top of standard, non-secure computer hardware and operating systems. To ensure proper security for something as important as a voting machine, the security must be designed into the system from the ground up. Superficially, voting machines seem like ATMs, which are a solved problem; ATMs handle huge numbers of interactions, dispense paper receipts and can be audited. But what makes voting machines much more difficult, Wagner explains, is the secret ballot. A trustworthy electronic voting system must break the link between the voter and votes in a way that cannot be reversed.
http://innovations.coe.berkeley.edu/vol2-issue3-mar08/electioncodes

[Melissa G]

22. Action Alert: Stop: Voter Caging Before 08 Elections

Thanks to WillYourVoteBCounted for the post and the DU discussion here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x498959

Original message
Action Alert: Stop: Voter Caging Before 08 Elections
Here is a new Progressive Secretary Letter.

This letter supports a campaign of ProjectVote.Org. It goes to Congress.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear _________________:

In a desperate effort to keep poor and minority citizens from voting, election officials in states such as Florida and Ohio have resorted to a relic of Jim Crow days called “voter caging.” This is the process of sending non-forwardable mail to registered voters, then compiling “caging lists” from the returned mail to challenge the residency of these voters.

Voter caging is ostensibly used to weed out fraudulent voters who use fake addresses. However, it targets minority neighborhoods, and often employs mistaken or out-of-date addresses. The result is unfair harassment of a specific segment of the population, at taxpayers' expense.

While everyone agrees that illegitimate voting must be prevented, we must accomplish this in a fair and efficient way. Voter caging is neither.

I urge Congress to regulate voter caging before the 2008 federal elections.

Sincerely,


http://www.progsec.org/DynMenu/DynMenu.php?Table=letter...

[Melissa G]

3. International n/t

[Melissa G]

18. UN Secretary General Moon may visit Nepal to observe elections

UN Secretary General Moon may visit Nepal to observe elections
Surya B. Prasai

Surya B. Prasai
Global Resource Expert - international strategic communications, media and international development.
................

March 11, 2008
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon has expressed his willingness to visit Nepal and to observe the Constituently Assembly Polls scheduled on April 10, 2008, according to Nepalese Foreign Minister Ms. Sahana Pradhan who met him at the sideline of the 7th UN Human Rights Conference in Geneva last week. Nepalese Foreign Minister Pradhan talking to media in Kathmandu´s Tribhuvan International Airport after addressing the UN Human Rights Council stated there was global appreciation for Nepal´s proposed democratic opening.

The anticipated UN Secretary General´s visit in April 2008 comes in the heels of frenzied preparation for the twice postponed CA Poll which were deferred due to mutual distrust among some within Nepal´s ruling seven party alliance. However, there has been no official confirmation or indication from the UN´s side yet.

Despite likely signs of the polls being held peacefully, some seasoned Nepali political veterans such as Mr. Rabindra Nath Sharma, an advocate for Constitutional Monarchy in Nepal, and Mr. Sher Bahadur Deuba former two time Prime Minister and considered the next probable successor to Mr. Koirala, have cast doubt on its date and timing, believing the election could yet again be disturbed by the Maoists or some radical elements taking advantage of insecurity. However, the Maoists are already participating in the CA Poll campaign fully, promising to abide by the Election Commission´s strict guidelines opting for peaceful democratic assimilation in the new democratic Nepal. However, there are some parties in the Nepalese Terai who have not shown willingness to sign a peace accord with the government.

According to Nepalese news sources, Dr. Bhoj Raj Pokhrel, Chief Election Commissioner called the government ministers to his office on March 11, expressing worry that the security situation in some districts of Terai is still not satisfactory enough. During interaction with one dozen ministers of the government, the Chief Election Commissioner (CEC) Dr, Bhoj Raj Pokharel also cited that some of the government ministers were misusing state facilities contrary to the election code of conduct and his attention was drawn by other political parties. Many government ministers feigned ignorance or innocence during the recent EC meeting some even claiming it was their privilege to do so. Recently when Prime Minister Girija Prasad Koirala wished to make a public address in SanoTundikhel, he abided strictly by the EC´s code of conduct and applied prior written permission.
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/54964

[Melissa G]

4. Editorial n/t

[Melissa G]

11. Ohio must get its voting act together

Ohio must get its voting act together


In general, voting Tuesday in Ohio went OK. But considering our recent past, and the potential for another blockbuster vote in November, it should have been a lot better. Unfortunately, election officials were scrambling up to March 4 to meet the latest edict from Ohio's secretary of state. Now they have to get ready for November and more changes.

Secretary Jennifer Brunner's late declaration in January she lost confidence in electronic touch-screen voting machines and wanted to see every county return to paper ballots by November got the ball rolling.


Since it couldn't happen by the primary, she ordered counties using touch-screen machines to make paper ballots available to those who asked.

This affected 57 of the state's 88 counties.
Touch-screen security is crucial, but paper ballots have their problems, too, and we saw that again Tuesday.
Shortages of ballots, waiting time for voters - some of whom gave up - and longer-than-necessary vote-counting times in spots were some of the issues faced Tuesday. In what seems to be turning into a regular occurrence, a few polls were kept open to allow voters more time and ballot runners a chance to get more ballots.

http://www.chillicothegazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080309/OPINION01/803090316/1014/OPINION

[Melissa G]

14. PA- Good staff is key to a smooth election day

Good staff is key to a smooth election day
March 11, 2008

Along with the excitement of Pennsylvania's April 22 primary being center-stage in choosing the Democratic Party nominee for president will come a lot of responsibility ... and headaches too. The county officials and staff responsible for recording and counting the votes will be under a lot of pressure to do those things quickly and accurately.

That's why a report issued earlier this year by Common Cause is troubling. The national good-government organization rated Pennsylvania one of 17 states at ''high risk'' for recording an inaccurate vote count. Its two main criteria are whether electronic voting machines are equipped to produce paper, voter-verifiable records and whether the state requires ''random post-election audits.'' The two measures, of course, are related because a paper record would be an important tool with which to conduct such an audit.

Given that the primary is six days from today, there isn't time for county election officials to change their machines, and according to Common Cause's tally, 51 of Pennsylvania's 67 counties do not require ''paper trails.'' At any rate, we have not bought in to the dire assessments of some activists that it would be easy or likely to tamper with voting results.

http://www.mcall.com/news/opinion/all-a.6306245mar11,0,7634182.story

[Melissa G]

23. Have to go to work now. Please vote this up before someone does something dramatic!

Wilms- sending Frist Kitties
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=411932
Or Kurovski and a HOLY MOTHER OF GOD terror thread...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x498633
Thanks!
Melissa

[Kurovski]

25. #5, JACKPOT!

Thank you ever so kindly, Missy G! :hug:

[Melissa G]

26. Thank you for getting the news out!

:loveya:

[tbyg52]

27. Argh, too late to rec

Well, I'm just on the computer because I can't sleep anyway, so here's thanks and a kick! :hi: