Come rec some Holt Defeat Outrage in GD.....

[althecat]

Come gather round all yee that are way laden by US DEMOCRACY GONE BAD!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3177674

Al

[kster]

1. The True "Emergency Paper Ballot Bill" that America will Get Behind

http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=72&pst=53...

K&R

[demodonkey]

2. Hand Counted Paper Ballots just ain't gonna happen for 2008 or anytime in the foreseeable future.

Please stop flogging this dead horse and face reality. Dennis Kucinich better do that too.

Kucinich sided with BUSH this week to destroy the last best chance my state and a lot of others had to do ANYthing to protect the 2008 election. Not that his one vote would have made any difference, but it's the principle.

If we get another stolen election, and President McCain, I hope he's happy.

I have dropped Dennis along with Ralph Nader into my "used to admire greatly but now they have gone off the deep end" file.

Sorry.

[EFerrari]

3. How are you holding up?

:hi:

[demodonkey]

4. Going nuts. And very, very scared.

As most everyone knows, the PA Primary is Tuesday. It is a madhouse here.

So this PM I crunched the numbers and assuming we hit 70% turnout (very possible) my own polling place is likely to be short on machines to the extent that we will be one to three hours over capacity (in terms of voter use time.)

And that assumes that each voter takes only three minutes and they come in nice orderly even fashion over the entire voting day.

Either people will leave, or we are going to have lines reminiscent of Ohio 2004. Our SOS is no Blackwell, but the whole state of Pennsylvania is in Denial about how bad these machines can be.

As PA is one of the last 12 states with no VVPB law (or statewide use of paper ballots) a lot of other national groups and people have moved on to audits and other reforms to leave us more or less to fend for ourselves. And some actvists' unrealistic idea that somehow we are going to get national or state-by-state laws for hand-counted paper ballots (we can't even get optical scan here) doesn't help Pennsylvania either.

All of this is leaving us stuck on paperless DREs.

Please, people please help Pennsylvania get the word out on this issue.

And support the state or local election integrity group of your choice. The hundreds of million$ going to these campaigns is for nothing if the votes aren't counted as cast. REMEMBER 2000 and 2004.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

5. encourage people to show up early in the day

to reduce the effects of the bottle neck

and hang in there.

Sorry for the trauma!

[demodonkey]

6. Ya, we know that but it won't help if there are more voters than minutes in the day...

:scared:

[EFerrari]

8. I knew this would happen. I'm sure you did, too. n/t

[EFerrari]

7. Send it to Mark:

[e-mail]

I'll also get the word out.

I wish you'd post about this. THIS IS IMPORTANT.

:hug:

:grouphug:

[Wilms]

9. Re: "some activists' unrealistic idea"

1. I'm not really sure "activists" is the best description for those I think you describe.

2. While those screaming about HCPB aren't helping PA, they aren't necessarily hurting the state, either.

3. Shamos has/is. And any activist who advocated Optical Scan over keeping levers (which aren't outlawed by HAVA) didn't serve the voters, either.

4. Other activists have an irrational idea (bolstered somehow by repeated failed attempts of Holt's) that federal legislation will outlaw paper-less voting. Don't hold your breath. Kucinich's HR6200 has as good a chance...which ain't sayin' much.

5. Optical Scan isn't any safer than DREs unless you have solid auditing regimes.

6. One state has a solid auditing regime. That state is New Jersey.

7. Kucinich's vote against the latest Holt fantasy is not even close to the reason the legislation failed. But like being pissed at Nader, it let's some feel better while taking the spotlight off the real issues.

8. Kucinich remarked:

While H.R. 5036 includes a provision to reimburse jurisdictions that convert their paperless voting system to one that includes a paper trail, it may also include optical scan technology. I have serious concerns with optical scan technology and its susceptibility to hacks and security breaches. Recent tests and research have demonstrated the ease with which a person can manipulate the configuration files to change votes. What's more, most of the equipment necessary to accomplish this can be purchased off-the-shelf at most technology stores.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x500756

Please inform everyone as to what you think he got wrong.


Mary Beth, your efforts aren't unappreciated. In fact, they're admired. But a majority of senators and congresspeople failing to come to the aid of PA is not something that should surprise.

[demodonkey]

10. Comments.....

While those screaming about HCPB aren't helping PA, they aren't necessarily hurting the state, either.

Yes, they are. They are clouding the issue among potential supporters. And if they are noticed at all by those in power, they are helping to perpetuate the image among some (a few) officials in this state that election integrity activists ALL want nothing but HCPB.

Shamos has/is.

'Ya think????

And any activist who advocated Optical Scan over keeping levers (which aren't outlawed by HAVA) didn't serve the voters, either.

Well, we tried. In 2006 I personally was lead plaintiff on one lawsuit that might have helped but the State Supreme Court threw our win from Commonwealth Court out. And within weeks our levers were gone. http://votepa.us/newsarchive/2006/westmoreland-suit-timeline.html

Other activists have an irrational idea (bolstered somehow by repeated failed attempts of Holt's) that federal legislation will outlaw paper-less voting. Don't hold your breath. Kucinich's HR6200 has as good a chance...which ain't sayin' much.

The "threat" of federal legislation passing (especially as a mandate) has been a BIG help to keep this issue on the table in this state. If that "threat" is removed, I don't think the issue will be taken as seriously (not that it ever was taken very seriously anyway, but it will be further marginalized.)

Realistically Kucinich's HCPB bill has about as much chance of even getting to Committee hearing (let alone out of Committee and to the Floor and passing) as I have of becoming the next Miss America AND the next US President. At the same time.

Optical Scan isn't any safer than DREs unless you have solid auditing regimes.

And don't you think we KNOW that??

But first we have to have something to audit. Then we go after a really good statistically significant audit law. Actually PA has an audit law on the books for a long time; it's weak but it's there even though there is nothing to audit in 51 of our largest counties right now. So we get something to audit and then go for strengthening the law.

One state has a solid auditing regime. That state is New Jersey.

Yes, and nothing really to audit at the moment. See PA plan above.

Please inform everyone as to what you think he got wrong.

I'm not even going to go there. Life is too short. As I said earlier, Kucinich has joined Nader in my "used to admire greatly but now they are off the deep end" file.

Mary Beth, your efforts aren't unappreciated. In fact, they're admired. But a majority of senators and congresspeople failing to come to the aid of PA is not something that should surprise.

Well thank you. But did I say I was surprised? Nooo, but I am dismayed that Republican Leadership turncoated at the last minute, is trying to make this a partisan issue, and BUSH (who has been oh-so-silent about this issue for years) stepped in with a statement calling it "excessive spending" within a day of his seeking $102 Billion (with a B) for his war. And Democratic Leadership allowed them to get away with all this.

We all know we are in deep trouble in this country, but......... geesh.

But to close on a bipartisan note, I am happy to point out that three out of eight Pennsylvania Republicans voted FOR the bill, and one at least didn't vote.

[Wilms]

11. How are Holt's repeatedly failing attempts a threat???

How does it keep the issue on the table? Is it possible that the HOPE of a Holt bill passing is the reason the state doesn't ante-up and pay for the conversion out of paper-less voting?

And as far as I can tell, the torch and pitchfork HCPB crowd DO want nothing but HCPB.

[kster]

12. Hand Counted Paper Ballots is not an option

Its what will be done. You feel free to pretend that you have the ultimate say, but,

WATCH US WORK!!!

[Yellow Horse]

14. A lot of us have "watched you work" for several years...

...to destroy this once-productive forum with your incessant prattle about Hand-Counted Paper Ballots. There's a major election coming up in November, one that is very likely to be stolen again, and this forum might again actually turn out to be useful if someone could get a word in edgewise about anything other than you and your HCPB.

If HCPB is what will be done, what HAVE you done toward that goal already? Where is your bill? Is it state-by-state or federal? Where is it? Who is your prime sponsor? Who are your cosponsors? When are your committee hearings? When is the markup? When is the floor vote?

The closest you have come is that Rush Holt actually got HCPB as an option into this latest bill, and to thank him you kick him in the teeth. Smart. Very smart.

Officials at all levels, who control the power, just don't like Hand-Counted Paper Ballots. As a nationally recognized method of vote counting this just plain is not going to happen anytime soon, if ever. And I don't see you or any of your cronies running for Congress or even County Clerk to change that. You're too busy blowing off steam in the DU ER forum.

Please. Turn off the hot air. Your don't even have a good collection of pitchforks and torches, just a lot of gas.

[kster]

15. As I have said Hand Counted Paper ballots is not an option

It is what WILL happen, Mark my words. You are not allowed to try and convince me or MY KIDS that their ballots should leave the precinct before they are hand counted, and I promise I will not try and convince your kids to allow their ballots to leave the precinct before they are hand counted.

Hand Counted paper Ballots is what I will fight for, not only for my kids, but for your kids, BELIEVE ME!!


Hand Counted Paper Ballots, WILL HAPPEN!!


:)

[Bill Bored]

17. A most eloquent assessment of the kster situation and the decline of this forum. nt

[Wilms]

18. Thanks for posting this, Yellow Horse.

Even in kster's response to you there is more of the trademark robo-spamming "incessant prattle".

You are not alone feeling as though the noise level so created has brought the forum down. From my view, the rise of this problem roughly coincided with the jingoistic marketing and branding of election issues some honed here in their insistence that something of political value was/is obtainable using specious exit poll data to discredit a specious election result.

Now, the admins seem only to begrudgingly support the forum on a near 9/11-dudgeon level. kster is perhaps useful in justifying that status.

The election reform movement has spawned too many self-describing patriot celebrities who more sales, click, recs, and slogan driven than interested in solving the complex problems faced.

[kster]

19. So you don't think the ballots will be Hand Count before they

leave the precinct, we live in the age of the INTERNET, more and more people know and understand why these crooks want DRE's (paperless) and/or Optical scan vote counting machines, that LOCK UP our paper ballots and get them out of the precinct before THE PEOPLE are able to Hand Count them?

DU will put ER in the dungeon because we teach our kids to

1)Hand Count their change before they leave the store?

2)Banks want you to, Hand Count your money before you leave the window?

What I tell people, and as you, as an Election Reformer should be telling people..

3)Hand Count the Paper Ballots before they leave the precinct.


Truth is simple Wilms.... TRY IT SOME TIME, its so much easier !!!


:)

Oh and Billbored :hi:

[Wilms]

20. No one here doesn't want HCPB, kster.

They're attempting a discussion about a complex issue for which the simplistic bleating of an internet crank is no match.

Your "prattle" is viewed as disruptive to that conversation. That's no indictment of HCPB, or even of you as a person. But it certainly refers to behavior unsuitable for the task at hand.

It is dishonest for you to assume that people here wish to dump HCPB when in fact it is quite obvious that it's merely certain "advocates" they'd rather do without. You can swaddle the "children" in a paper ballot and wear a HCPB lapel pin, but no one here is the slightest impressed or fooled.

Meanwhile, many here, and many formerly here, actually DO things that are moving states toward a more transparent system. And it is assumed by many that you do NOTHING apart from your incessant harassment of others.

When you come in here and tell us about your experience trying to get a state, a county, a town, or even your own precinct (you vote, right?) to HCPB, you'll be perceived in a different light. In fact, many might be satisfied if you only posted on your own threads and stopped robo-spamming theirs.

Until then, references to you will be limited to that allowed by the rules and individuals' sense of comity.

Electronic voting and vote counting is an enemy of verifiable elections. Your form of advocacy is also viewed as a stumbling block to that end.

Ya need any more "truth" this morning, kster? I'll recommend a therapist for you.

[Bill Bored]

13. Get real! Congress is not going to fix this problem.

Even though Holt's new bill will probably pass the house once it goes back through committee (a majority has already voted for it, and I doubt the Dems will allow a VoterID amendment), it won't matter because the Senate won't pass the bill and Bush won't sign it.

So whatever can be done in PA, or anywhere else as a state, should be done that way. If that's nothing, then so be it. But I just don't see any help coming from Congress and in some ways, efforts to try and motivate that are on the same level as trying to get HCPB on a large scale. It ain't gonna happen! And BTW, Kucinich does not HAVE a HCPB bill in the current Congress. If he does, please cite it or stop wasting more time discussing it. It's NOT HR6200. That was the LAST Congress! So while he may be standing on principle because his 1 vote in the house would not have made a difference in the case of HR5036 anyway, he's not doing much to fix the problem at this point either.

Now, I don't know if efforts aimed at post-HR811 federal legislation have been a diversion from efforts at the state level in PA or anywhere else, but it sure does seem like a waste of time, given this Congress.

I don't know what else to say. PA baffles me. Seems like there's been plenty of media coverage of the situation in PA, even on the TV. Yet nothing seems to get done.

And it's true that NJ has nothing to audit, even though they have the best audit law in the country so far. And it's true that PA has one too.

[kster]

16. So just let another man count your vote in secret, because he says so

you are a nut, MAN UP!!


For christsakes!!