Tape Teacher’s Religious Rant In Class = Ban On Student Taping

[DeSwiss]

So when a NJ student recorded his history teacher's rantings about them going to hell if they didn't beleive in Jesus and that Noah's ark contained dinosaurs, he went to the principal about it -- who didn't believe him. The teacher, who was present at the time, denied having said anything like this.

Then the student whipped out his tape recorder. Boy, I know THAT had to be embarrassing. But he was just lying for Jesus. Which we all know is okay. So he's still teaching his warped version of history....

Student’s Recording of Teacher’s Views Leads to a Ban on Taping

The New York Times
By TINA KELLEY
February 1, 2007

After a public school teacher was recorded telling students they belonged in hell if they did not accept Jesus as their savior, the school board has banned taping in class without an instructor’s permission, and has added training for teachers on the legal requirements for separating church and state.

A junior at Kearny High School in New Jersey, Matthew LaClair, 16, complained to his principal after the teacher in his American history class, David Paszkiewicz, told students that evolution and the Big Bang were not scientific, that dinosaurs were aboard Noah’s ark and that only Christians had a place in heaven. He started recording the comments in September because, he said, he was afraid school officials would not otherwise believe that the teacher had made them. Matthew said he was ridiculed and threatened after his criticism became public.

After several students complained to the school board that their voices had been broadcast on the Internet and on television news programs without their consent, the board adopted a policy in mid-January that requires students to request permission from an instructor to record or videotape a class.

“Adoption of this rule at this time sends all the wrong messages,” said Paul LaClair, Matthew’s father. “We were in negotiations and this is extremely ill-advised and disrespectful, if not bad faith.”

About the same time, the school board president, Bernadette McDonald, addressed a memo to the Kearny School District community that every teacher would receive mandatory instruction about how to interpret the Constitution’s separation of church and state and how it should apply to classroom discussions. Ms. McDonald also asked the school board to adopt a policy showing “its strong commitment to the principle that the personal religious beliefs of our instructional staff have no place in our classrooms.”

Kenneth J. Lindenfelser, the board’s lawyer, said classes were being planned to inform students of their constitutional rights, to encourage them to come forward with questions and to explain that people “who exercise their rights should not be viewed negatively.” School officials said they took “corrective action” against Mr. Paszkiewicz, but would not elaborate.

Meanwhile, Matthew said that Mr. Paszkiewicz recently told the class that scientists who spoke about the danger of global warming were using tactics like those Hitler used, by repeating a lie often enough that people come to believe it.

Mr. Lindenfelser said that the district did not investigate the report of that comment, which he said was not religious or a violation of “any kind of law.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/01/nyregion/01tape.html

*** - Why is this man still being allowed to infect our children's minds with this drivel???

:banghead:

[murielm99]

1. These parents need to sue.

They need to sue the school board, the administration and the teacher.

I am a Christian and a teacher. I don't think people should sue without trying reason and communication first. But if anyone had ever treated my kids like this boy and his parents were treated, I would not hesitate.

This is what happens when fundies get too much power.

[Solo_in_MD]

2. Civil suit requires injury...what was the injury here?

Its not that I support the teacher, but a legal suit, which will be defended by his union will accomplish nothing.

However, if I were the student I would be documenting all other interactions with the teacher since there will be a comeback, and insist on reassignment ASAP.

[DeSwiss]

5. I agree with you...

...the state of NJ apparently has hired an incompetent buffoon for a teacher and that is an injury to all students when this is done. Every college educated person with a teaching certificate should understand the basics of science and that carbon-dating of dinosaur bones proves that Homo Sapiens did not co-exist with them. To teach such a thing is lunacy and uneducated. And we all possess the constitutional right to be told the truth from publicly-paid employees. He's lying and cannot provide any evidence to back up his comments. I'd hate to see his test. And I'd hate to receive a failing grade for not spouting back his inanities.

There's the harm and the injury.....

[DeSwiss]

7. In my above post I meant to say...

...I agree with you murielm99.

Another injury I've considered is the school board's decision to ban recording devices from the classrooms. This raises free speech issues and the public's right to know. And in lieu of what's happened with Reverend Noah here, it appears they are more worried about alternative views and information being available to the public, than correcting an egregious wrong. They end up condoning what this teacher said, and sheilding him and others from further scrutiny.

IMHO any of the other parents that don't complain as well, are saying that they too disbelieve scientific facts when it comes up against their religious belief. However, the next time they get sick or injured, they'll benefit from science in their cure and/or recovery.

They're just kind of selective on which parts of science they won't accept, I suppose.

:sarcasm:

[ngant17]

9. audio notes

What's wrong, students can't take notes via audio? A student needs permission from the teacher to take notes? I would think that taking notes is an integral part of student life on campus. Unless you want to stifle the learning process.

If I want to post my notes of what I took in school, to post them on my own website for later reference, I don't see a problem with that either. Those notes might be helpful to someone else, too. It doesn't matter if those notes are text, audio or video. As long as they are rational to someone.

What is the school trying to hide? Their own ignorance should be exposed whether this is a private or public school.

[northofdenali]

3. This asshole wasn't FIRED?

I agree. If I were the parents, I'd hit the school, the School Board and the teacher with a big-bucks suit - they'd probably fire him just because he's a nuisance and to avoid paying out!

[LunaSea]

4. Dinos on the ark....

I had no idea....

[DeSwiss]

6. LunaSea I luv those pics!!!

Hey! Isn't that the Loch Ness Monster in the water next to the Ark? Dang, how old is Nessie?!?!?!?! And Jeebus with his pet iguana while riding on Dino Flintsone is PRICELESS!!!


:rofl:

[no_hypocrisy]

8. Ban on taping teachers

Don't think it will be held to be constitutional.

For one thing, it isn't wiretapping or eavesdropping as it is a public forum and not a private converation. Tax dollars pay for the teachers' lectures.

Next, if no taping, how is a student supposed to have appropriate evidence to prove that the teacher actually said what the student alleges. I don't subscribe to witnesses as the teacher may be popular or someone's grade may be riding on silence or maybe the other students even agree with the teacher. Plus, the student making the allegation is going to be a pariah just for the fact s/he complained. Unless the kid's parent is the president of the Board of Education, his allegations will be viewed either as a rant or pot-stirring or just fanciful interpretation.

If teachers in public schools are using their bully pulpit to promulgate unlawfully and unconstitutionally their religious views, they need to be held accountable.

[DeSwiss]

10. You've hit the nail on the head....

Although presently there is no court case pending. And I'm not sure whether it will get to that point -- but it should. In reading the article it says exactly what you described could happen -- is happening and is what this young man is now going through. He told the principal who promptly didn't believe him. Not until he produced the tape with irrefutable proof. And then he was ridiculed by other students for having complained. The teacher lied on a student in his presence to the principal, and the last time I checked lying is a firing offense. So, the school board's solution to the conflict is to remove the means of gathering evidence so it doesn't happen again. Hoping, I'm sure, that this will all just GO AWAY.

And I'm not sure that the argument of students complaining that their "voices had been broadcast on the Internet and on television news programs without their consent," will hold up either. Its not as though they have any expectation of privacy in a public place. And its not privileged communication between a student of teacher either. While I can understand the need to maintain the decorum and an atmosphere conducive for learning in schools, I also think that the issue of the separation of religious views from teaching them in a public school trumps those concerns. SCOTUS has held that students have no expectation of privacy in the school setting, which allows among other things, for their lockers to be searched without warrant. Schools have banned cellphones for similar (although dubious) "security reasons." But apparently the public school system there wants speech privacy from public scrutiny.

And another case I recall bears upon this one by contrast. Last spring, a federal judge ruled that teacher http://progressive.org/mag_mc032406">Deb Mayer in Bloomington, IN had no constitutional right to free speech in the classroom. In 2003 she said that her contract was not renewed because she answered a student's question about whether she would participate in a demonstration for peace. Her students were reading an article in Time for Kids about peace protests. She responded to the student's question by saying she sometimes honks for peace and that it's important to seek out peaceful solutions both on the playground and in society.

Afterwards, the parents of one of the students got angry and insisted that she not speak about peace or the war in Iraq again in the classroom. Mayer’s principal so ordered her. It didn't matter that at the time she had a son serving in the Navy in Afghanistan either. Her lawsuit against the school district does not deny the Iraq War discussion took place. And it acknowledges that Mayer was instructed to refrain from discussing her opinions on the war. When the school district did not renew Mayer’s contract at the end of the semester, she sued for wrongful termination and for violation of her First Amendment rights.

Then on March 10th, Judge Sarah Evans Barker dismissed Mayer’s case, granting summary judgment to the defendants. The judge said the school district was within its rights to terminate Mayer because of various complaints it received from parents about her teaching performance. But beyond that, Judge Barker ruled that “teachers, including Ms. Mayer, do not have a right under the First Amendment to express their opinions with their students during the instructional period.”

Of course this was in Indiana and it was in 2003 when everyone seemed "bully" about going to war in Iraq. But she didn't complain about the war, only stating that peaceful resolution is a better alternative to killing. Of course we don't want to teach about "peace" to our children. The contract termination was defended by the principal in this case by saying her comments deviated from the teaching plan. So the question I have is, is teaching that dinosaurs coexisted with humans part of the NJ school's teaching plan? Is teaching that Christians will go to heaven and everyone else to goes hell a part of the NJ schools teaching plan?

This teacher in NJ should be FIRED forthwith. I believe that teacher's should have sufficient freedom in the classroom so that they can reach their students in the best way possible. Having said that, I cannot for the life of me understand what a history teacher is doing teaching that everyone who's not a Christian is going to hell, let alone that dinosaurs existed along side of mankind. The school board has absolutely no guts or intelligence. And appears to be run by the staff lawyer now. So much for representing the best interest of the children.

After such an incident, if I were a parent there I'd buy my kid a tape recorder and tell him/her to tape everybody that teaches them. What else are they trying to cover-up? And the state government isn't off the hook here either. These school boards, however they're put in place (by election or appointment) are charged with carrying out their duties under the law. This guy broke that law and is apparently being allowed to continue to break it since his "corrective action" has not resulted in his dismissal. And he's still making false statements (now about global warming), in the classroom.

One thing I did infer from the father's comments, unless he or his wife is a lawyer, it sure as hell sounds like he's been talking to one. He said, "Adoption of this rule at this time sends all the wrong messages,” said Paul LaClair, Matthew’s father. “We were in negotiations and this is extremely ill-advised and disrespectful, if not bad faith.”

That sounds like lawyer talk to me. I hope they are preparing to sue the Bejeebus out of the school system and the teacher personally for direct harm!!!

[EvolveOrConvolve]

11. This man is a disease

and he's infecting our children with his particular brand of fundamentalism. He shouldn't be allowed to teach.

[charlie]

12. Even worse

He's a craven liar. If the kid hadn't taped him, he would've been hosed. Fortunately, he was smart enough to let the teacher lie his ass off before busting out the tape. And when caught, the teacher didn't have a smidge of contrition, only a snarling derision for the kid. Shameless, immoral, gutless bastard.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

13. I don't understand why these people think they can get away with it

The ten commandments don't mean anything except when they fight for their placement in government buildings. The actual meaning of the ten commandments is lost on most fundies.

[dsc]

14. two things

One, the teacher should have been fired. Two, you can't tape teachers without asking first. I understand why the kid did what he did, but he really can't do that.

[DeSwiss]

15. Okay....

"One, the teacher should have been fired. Two, you can't tape teachers without asking first. I understand why the kid did what he did, but he really can't do that."

I totally agree with your first point. But I'm not sure I understand why you say that teachers shouldn't be taped in your second point. I have no problem with him asking, but these were not normal circumstances:

"Ummm, I think what you're saying here is wrong. Can I tape you so I can expose you to your boss?"

If the student hadn't done it this way, we would very likely never know about this happening because as the article stated, the principal didn't believe him until he heard the tape. So what are the odds the teacher would have granted permission to tape if he had asked first?

I can see how taping anyone might be construed as an invasion of privacy, but this is a public school teacher whose lessons and lectures are being paid for by the citizens. If the student is to be tested on the "material" presented in class, why can't he/she tape what is said there? I agree that posting comments publicly might be questionable from a legal standpoint in the absence of having a release from that person. Particularly if someone benefits financially from the act. But why would any teacher oppose having what they say in a classroom of a public school recorded, unless what they are saying is itself questionable if not illegal???

:shrug:

[dsc]

16. There are others in the room

for one thing. Taping would inhibit discussion. I do let students tape me, I have only had two ask. I agree that this is an unusual situation.

[Solon]

21. Uhm, classrooms are considered a public forum...

due to the fact that the teacher is working and speaking on the public dime and because of the presence of several third parties. In a classroom environment, there is no expectation of privacy, either for the Teacher or the Students. In my high school, it wasn't unusual for us to take audio notes, and I don't remember any of us asking the teachers if it was OK. Hell, once you get to college, audio notes are practically a requirement.

[Zhade]

17. Fucking LIARS. Yeah, they'll "warn" the teachers - and prevent us from knowing if they really did!

If I were a kid in that class sympathetic with Matthew, I'd wear a wire and post the audio to the internet every single time this lying fuck of a "teacher" opens his mouth to violate the First Amendment! Make it impossible for the school to not take real action.

And why the hell was this moved to this forum? This is a matter of law and education.

[DeSwiss]

25. Zhade, it wasn't moved....

...I posted here (I'm still kind of a newbie around here) because I thought the issue of the teacher's religion predominated.

~DeSwiss :)

[bryant69]

18. I'm as religious as they come - and that teacher shouldn't be teaching

If he can't keep from editorializing or prosolytizing.

And anyway everybody knows that the dinosaurs were acquired by a deli orbiting Saturn - you can still get Stegasaurous Loaf there from time to time.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[cain_7777]

19. Dumbing down of America because of christian teachers like this

"Meanwhile, Matthew said that Mr. Paszkiewicz recently told the class that scientists who spoke about the danger of global warming were using tactics like those Hitler used, by repeating a lie often enough that people come to believe it."

So every evangelical is also like Hitler for repeating all the lies of christianity over and over. This man, like a pedophile, has no place in a classroom because he is raping their minds! :puke:

[Orrex]

20. Clearly the evangelizing teacher was out of line, but...

Regarding the propriety of taping a class lesson--might there be an issue of contract liability at play? For example, the teacher is an arm of the state, of course, but might the teachers' contract stipulate that the precise content of lessons and lectures are protected intellectual property, able to be recorded only with prior permission? Not sure who would give that permission (eg., the teacher or the school) but is it possible that such a clause might be in place?

Just asking--I have no idea one way or the other.

[Solon]

22. The only thing that is protected intellectual property...

in Public Schools would be any privately published material in the school, Textbooks, Computer Software, etc. Teachers, and the schools themselves, who are arms of the state CANNOT copyright anything they produce while acting as arms of the state. That's actually ILLEGAL. Any and all Government Publications are considered Public Domain, to be used at a person's leisure, unless they are classified, then the FOIA kicks in.

[Orrex]

23. Interesting--thanks for the detailed answer

In my school days, I recall teachers who set express prohibitions against the use of recording devices (tape recorders, in those days!), but no one ever really tried to push the issue. I think that we all assumed it was along the lines of "thou shalt not chew gum in class" and left it at that.

[Solon]

24. There are confusing rules, that's for sure...

A School may have a policy against tape recorders, similar to banning cell phones, as being disruptive in class, however, there is no LAW against students using such items. Courts, when necessary, sort these things out themselves. The thing people must realize is that recordings in PUBLIC forums are perfectly legal, this includes classrooms.

As far as copyrights in schools, well, that's something that can be confusing, a Teacher at a public school who took a remedial course during the summer, wrote a dissertation, and then later used it in their own class would be considered that teacher's own copyrighted material, even though its used as part of curriculum. Teachers are given latitude in this area for good reasons, teaching style, new information about subjects, etc. Copyright law also has huge exceptions for non-commercial educational purposes. That's why, for example, you can show the Movie "Roots" in its entirety to a classroom full of kids, even though the FBI warning at the beginning of the movie expressly forbids public showings of the movie that aren't authorized by the copyright holder. Educational uses of copyrighted material is covered under the "Fair Use" rights given to individuals using said material.

As far as teachers setting up rules of their own, well, if the School Board or Administration back them up, that becomes part of policy, if not, its not enforceable.