What would convince you to change your religious or non-religious position?

[More Than A Feeling]

Could anything? Have you ever changed before, and if so, why?

I've changed, once for emotional reasons, and once for intellectual reasons. I went from atheist to Christian in part because I felt that there had to be more to life than material things, and I went from Christian to Buddhist because I realized that there was no reason to believe any of the claims that Christianity makes, and I no longer felt that it was so bad if material things are all that there are.

How about you?

[whistle]

1. Let's see Dick Cheney walk on water and George Dubya feed

...the multitudes with two fishes and five loaves of bread.

[cdnwannabe]

2. No going back to Christianity....

I believe there is a higher power of some sort, but it certainly doesn't have to be a christian god. I think you have to be batshit crazy to believe in things like Armageddon as it is outlined in the "Left Behind" series!

[Mojambo]

3. God would need to take me bowling. n/t

[Justitia]

6. OMG, I'm dying laughing! -eom

[catbert836]

4. Superpowers.

All God has to do to get me to believe again is give me X-Ray vision. That shouldn't be too hard for God to do, but jeez.

[More Than A Feeling]

9. Hey, Catbert! Long time, no see!

How ya been?

[Az]

5. The answer will boil down to the same thing for everyone

A strong emotional experience. That is what it will take to change anyone's mind about any strongly believed position. The mind is not rational. Rational thought is only used when there is doubt or ignorance. But if we have a strong belief based on a lifetime of experience or teaching then it is going to take an even stronger emotional experience to overwhelm it.

Beliefs can change slowly over time with less strenuous inpact. But in order to change what a person believes quickly its going to take something drastic. This is how brainwashing works as well as torture. You impact that mind with various overwhelming emotional experiences and overwhelm the minds beliefs. This works through positive means as well but those are far more difficult to manufacture.

[133724]

7. I have changes several times.

all of the changes however heave been within the context of christianity.

I was born into a lutheran family.
after I graduated from college I became a presbyterian.
After my wife died I went back to lutheranism.
I now consider my self a Lutheran Buddhist (existentialist)

[nankerphelge]

8. Something that...

doesn't currently exist. Everything we've got now belongs in the dustbin of history. It isn't even worthy of study like greek mythology and the like.

[smoogatz]

10. Evidence to the contrary.

Isn't that the only rational answer?

[Az]

11. Evidence will only start a shift

Evidence is offered on all sides of the debate. The trouble is that what passes for overwhelming evidence for one may be trivial for another. Evidence leads to a slow shift. But I suspect the OP is refering to a sudden acceptance of a new belief. And that will take a massive experience. Not just some evidence.

[smoogatz]

13. I should have said compelling evidence, I guess.

On the order of a personal appearance by the Almighty, if such a thing exists. Which it doesn't, as far as I can tell.

[patrice]

23. Just for fun . . .

How would you know that whatever put in this "personal appearance by the Almighty" was, in fact, God?

Have you ever seen that series called Stargate? Maybe this "Almighty" is really just some very powerful, but deluded, other entity.

[smoogatz]

24. Haven't seen it, no--

but I guess it's a reasonable question. To which the answer is: I wouldn't. But if the critter was powerful enough--could perform the standard miracles, heal people, raise the dead, create new life forms, loaves and fishes--I might be persuaded to worship it, regardless. But probably not. I suck at worshipping. It's just not in my nature.

[patrice]

25. Yeah, I'd probably call it God too, if it would save our ass, but like you . . .

I'm not sure about worship, if that means being obsequious. Celebrate, honor, respect yes. But deny how I myself and others are "made in the image and likeness of God" (whatever "God" is)? No.

[Az]

28. Its the emotions

Just experiencing an event does not necessitate belief. It is the interpretation and that is dependent on existing mind sets. For some God popping up in front of them may easily be dismissed as a delusion to be sorted out later. But if somehow the event touches an emotional nerve then it can overwhelm the skepticism.

Skepticism is no match for emotions. Period. If your emotions are caught up in an experience that is what and how you will see it. Reason only comes into play when there is doubt. Uncertainty. Emotions bypass such things. They are certainty. But they need not be right. And that is the problem. Just because you believe something doesn't make it true.

[patrice]

29. I think emotions are very seriously under-estimated in their

effect upon what we think we know, as though you can be just rational and know something without any emotional factors.

I also think an awful lot of what passes for spiritual experience is more emotional than anything else. Not to put emotions down as not worthy somehow, but they should be recognized for what they are and what they do.

[Xipe Totec]

12. Quantum Mechanics, and Chaos Theory

yes,

yes,


"I realized science couldn't answer any of the really interesting questions, so I turned to philosophy. I've been searching for God ever since".

- Bud Chantilas, Red Planet.

Actually, there are many more influences, such as Kurt Gödel and Heisenberg...


And then, there is this quote:

The Creation Hymn of the Rig Veda asserts that in the beginning there was no air, no heavens, no water, no death and no immortality. Night and day did not exist and there was only the breathing of the One. Then somehow creation occurred. No one knows how this happened, and the Rig Veda speculates that possibly even the One does not know.

-Commentary on the Rig Veda, quoted in "The Turbulent Mirror"

[patrice]

26. What I grasp of those theories had a Big influence on me too. n/t

[madrchsod]

14. nothing

pretty much set in my way of believing

[Champion Jack]

15. I want god to prove to me that

he wrote all that stuff and not just a bunch of humans.
Oh yeah, and I want jesus to bring me a pony

[Meshuga]

16. My beliefs change a lot

but my religious position does not change much since my religion does not focus much on belief or faith but it is all about conduct. I like the tradition, the ethical teachings, questioning, incentives for further study, etc. I am comfortable with it and see a fit for myself.

I'm a Reform Jew and I am proud of what this Jewish movement stands for.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

17. Yes because Christian doctrines are unfair and abusive.

I don't believe in Original Sin; as an attorney, this offends my sense of justice. I can make enough mistakes by myself, thank you. Humanity is wandering around and trying to learn. I don't believe in substitutionary atonement either (Jesus died for your sins), and I think Christianity is a scam like a commerical that tells you need something because you're lacking. IOW, you need Christian Grace because you are lacking perfection.

God would have to talk to me. I believe that if there is a supreme being, it's not nosy and has to be prayed to -- refer to Mark Twain saying "God purring and farting on his throne".

I also have refused to speak to several relatives and other people who got in my face with a commercial for Jesus, or flat told me I was going to hell. They don't want to hear about "Judge not lest ye be judged" or "As you did it unto the least of them so also you did it unto me".

And you don't have to be a Christian to be a good person. I found my philosophy in THE IMPORTANCE OF LIVING by Lin Yutang. He was a Chinese guy whose parents were Christian missionaries. He rejected that and said that we should be decent people, and do good works, just because it's the right thing to do. In his chapter of this book, called Why I am a Pagan, he says the following:

"All I know is that if God loves me half as much as my mother does, He will not send me to Hell."

And I have been thru many belief systems and have decided that Freud was right: we have the Abrahamic religions because we need a Sky Daddy to protect us. Those religions were created out of psychological needs.

The only church I can stand is a non Christian one: The Unitarian-Universalists. The first Unitarian was Michael Servetus and he was persecuted by the Catholics in the Inquisition, condemned by Martin Luther, and finally barbecued at the stake in Geneva by John Calvin. Proving that Protestants can be just as evil as Catholics in persecuting.

I think the Hindu and Buddhist religions are far deeper and have more truth in them than the Abrahamic ones. Particularly Buddhism as a distilled version of Hinduism.

My idea of a good Christian is Jimmy Carter, and he is constantly condemned by the right wingers, because he goes out and busts ass with Habitat for Humanity, supervises elections and lots of other good things, at his advanced age.

[gaspee]

18. Nope

To me, personally, and this does not apply to anyone else (and isn't it a shame I have to make that disclaimer) the idea of a "God" is absurd. I'm talking the all knowing "father" interferring type of god. Patently absurd. I've felt this way since I was about 8 years old, so I don't see it changing.

That said, I don't care if people worship the three headed godess of purplania. Just keep it out of the public sphere and don't hurt anyone else. Too bad almost no religion actually does that.

I have no desire to convert anyone to my way of thinking and I get offended when other people try to convert me. Or try to run our government based on their religion.

[papau]

35. Well said - your attitude toward the public sphere and religion is also this Christian's attitude.

"Just keep it out of the public sphere and don't hurt anyone else. Too bad almost no religion actually does that. I have no desire to convert anyone to my way of thinking and I get offended when other people try to convert me. Or try to run our government based on their religion."

is something we all should be able to agree with.

[smoogatz]

19. Okay, I just had a conversion experience.

Check this out: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=162118&mesg_id=162118

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. I went from Christian to Sufi

following inner guidance. I continue to follow this guidance as my spirituality evolves.

[patrice]

21. May I differentiate between religious and spiritual?

I was raised conservative Catholic (11 years of Catholic school, Mass 6 days a week, Catechism 5 days a week, all of the Sacrements except Holy Orders and Extreme Unction etc.). The CC was much more intellectually open when I was coming of age in the '60s, so I've always been spiritual. I started becoming less religious, but more spiritual, as I studied Science, and the philosophy of Science, in my undergraduate degree and found that Science doesn't say that there isn't a God (though the CC had never said that Science did say that; I was just questioning, because that was allowed in those days). I found out that Science does, indeed, say "Begin with ANY hypothesis" because all hypotheses are allowable, and though not all hypotheses are supported by empirical evidence, that does NOT disproove them. It just simply means that there is no support AND that may be because we have not devised a valid and reliable test for the hypothesis. I learned that Science does not proove anything; it only identifies stronger or weaker degrees of probability. If you are a **real** rationalist, the appropriate rational statement is not "Because there is no proof of God, there is no God" but rather "There is no support/evidence of God thus far, therefore there PROBABLY is no God".

I also studied grammar and literature in my undergraduate degree. My major period was late Victorian authors, who had some pretty interesting manifestations of existential angst, because as the well educated class of the time, some of them were having serious trouble dealing with contemporaneous scientific findings about things like the probable size of the solar system. I also got into the Absurdists for reasons that I can't remember and the combination of things such as Transformational Grammar, Tennyson et al, and Samuel Beckett, in comparison to Science, made me realize how utterly dependent and limited all statements of "knowledge" are. People too often think words are the same thing as that to which words only refer. Saying "There is a God" or "There is no God" is not equivalent to the phenomenal world about which you are only speaking. They're the words. The reality is something else. Something that existed before, and was/is what it is, without any words at all.

Once my kids were Confirmed, I no longer made them go to Church and several years later I stopped going too.

What would change that? I would go to church if church came to me. If there were a community of people who accepted and really loved me completely as I am and wanted to live in the World in a similar or complimentary manner (free, environmentally responsible, politically active, creative, self sustaining as much as possible, truly charitable . . .) I might join them (and that DOESN'T have to turn into Jonestown). Other than that, for about a year now, by myself, I've been reading the Bhagavad Gita, because it appeals to me intellectually, and chanting Hare Krsna, because it feels good.

As far as changing my spirituality, I'm not certain what could change that, because I've been trying to live somewhere near 50:50 (50% yes there is something called a "God", 50% no there isn't a "God"). That has more to do with the things I said earlier about the nature of knowing than it does with any specific thing in the phenomenal world. That and I think the tension between "knowing" and "not knowing" keeps me free to learn what is really Real.

Hare Krsna! Hare Rama!

[Random_Australian]

22. Sure! Evidence will have me believing whatever that evidence points to.

:)

Simple as that. (Almost)

[toddaa]

27. One million dollars

I'll do anything for money.

[kwassa]

30. My religious position is in constant change, and never stops evolving

It is a journey, not a destination.

I don't even define it, most of the time, because definition is restrictive. I have many influences on my thought from different religious traditions and ideas, and I am sure that I will have more in the future.

[More Than A Feeling]

31. I gotta agree with you about labels.

"Buddhist" is shorthand for me. If I wanted to give the exhaustive description it would be "secular, agnostic, transcendentalist, populist, Unitarian-Universalist, American Baptist Buddhist". Maybe I ought to join you and give up labels altogether, if that is what you have done.

[cain_7777]

32. Catholic to Atheist becasue of education

I simply learned too much to waste time believing in fantasy.

[skygazer]

33. This is an interesting forum

I've never been here before.

My beliefs - if they can even be called that - have gone through several changes but for the most part, I've always been open to different interpretations of the standard questions - where did we come from? why are we here? and where do we go when we die?

This is pretty much what all religions attempt to address, isn't it?

I can find compelling stories to explain all those things in all kinds of belief systems - ancient celtic beliefs, Native American beliefs, christianity, judaism, etc.

I guess my position has always been, and from a young age, that it doesn't really matter what I beleive. I'm here and I am going to die someday and I'll find out where I go when that happens. I refuse to believe that there is only one "right" way to believe (and who knows - could be no one has postulated what that "right" way is - we may all be wrong. What a hoot that would be). I try to be a good person because I believe its the most sensible way to live.

[Meshuga]

34. Beliefs

Beliefs always change but your philosophy in life "try to be a good person" is the main static goal since, for some, beliefs can chance and the goal will stay the same. Some people change their means of achieving that goal and some choose to stay with what they are doing since it is working for them. You seem to be content with your means to achieve your goals so there is no need to change anything.

I see that you are a DU vet but welcome to R/T!

[cyborg_jim]

36. I have changed

When shown to be mistaken I don't really see the benefit in holding onto my previous falsehoods. Be that scientific, historical, artistic or religious. No point in retaining redundant information.

[TRYPHO]

37. Eternal life or Jewish aliens

If the former I would eventually consider euthanasia, which is currently against my faith, and if the latter, would probably make everyone turn ultra-orthodox :-)

TRYPHO

[Zhade]

38. Actual independent corroborating evidence for ANY religious teachings would be a start.

NT!

[MedleyMisty]

39. Hmm

I don't know if I've ever changed.

When I was little, I read the Children's Bible. I don't remember exactly what I thought when I read it.

In first grade we learned about dinosaurs. I asked my mother how God could have made the world in seven days if dinosaurs were around for millions of years before humans. She said that days lasted for millions of years back then, but she didn't sound very sure. And it's not like we went to church or she was Christian herself or anything so I just figured that she was reaching for an explanation and that the Bible wasn't true.

So I suppose I've been a spiritual atheist all my life. I believe, deeply and extremely, in love and compassion and peace. But not in anything else, which is why if I was religious I'd probably be Buddhist.

As for what it would take for me to change - evidence. I'm always willing to change my mind if new evidence comes along.