Do you have to be miserable to be Born Again? Semi-serious question.

[skygazer]

I'm reading a book about the Christian Right and in it there are several interviews with present and past fundies. Common to all their stories, and when I think about it, the stories of virtually everyone I know who considers themselves Born Again is misery.

"My life was a shambles..."
"I was rootless..."
"My soul was empty and dissatisfied..."

I cannot think of a single person I've read about or known who said they were happy in life, successful in their job, had a stable home and a good relationship when they were born again.

So if this is the case, why does one have to be miserable to "find Jesus?" Seriously.

[wildhorses]

1. failure brings humility and causes one to look outside of

theirselves for a solution...

:shrug:

[skygazer]

5. Very true and I recognize that

But I know many, many people who are religious on every level of the scale - from those who don't much think about it to people like my landlord who goes to bible study every wednesday morning. Those people have looked to religion all their lives for guidance and answers but didn't turn to it solely because they were miserable and had nowhere else to turn.

However, in my experience, the people I've known or heard about who were born again weren't particularly religious before their conversion - which begs the question of whether it's sort of a bogus belief system - kind of the idea that "well, nothing else has worked - I'll try this."

I also notice that people like my landlord tend to be live and let live and low-key about their religion while so many of the born agains seem fanatical and judgmental.

[wildhorses]

15. some born agains but, not all

guess it depends on the individual

[skygazer]

16. Certainly not all

But that wasn't even really what I was wondering about. I'm just wondering if anyone has an example of anyone they know or have heard of who was born again WITHOUT going through some sort of traumatic experience. Someone who just thought about the situation, perhaps talked to others and agreed with their beliefs and decided, "Hey, that's for me. I'm going to rededicate my life to Jesus."

Because I honestly have never known or heard about anyone like that. Admittedly, my experience is narrow which is why I ask.

[wildhorses]

26. in my understanding of the term 'born again' pretty much all

protestant christians would fit this term. i think you are trying to talk about people who have come to christ later in life (as an adult). some adults come to christ by way of a spouse...i am not sure i would call that a traumatic experience...for some people it is like a bolt of lightning for others it is as ongoing as the waves washing upon the shore...soemtimes the light burns brightly other times the light flickers on the verge of going out. it is an ongoing process, daily ebb and flow, if you will...

[hyphenate]

2. I think part of it is because

those people are at a point in their lives where they are willing to accept something "new," and because their life simply sucks and they can't get any further down. It's pretty much the same reasoning for those people who are finally able to pick themselves up and head to AA or NA because they've hit bottom.

It's like here is a chance for them to build their lives anew, and what better way than accepting that they aren't powerful enough to handle their lives on their own, and religion, especially this kind of religion, allows them to blame their problems on someone else (God) and use the extreme religion as a way of absolving themselves from blame for their own mistakes and failures. I always believe that these people, who aren't willing to own up to mistakes they have made, rely on having another party to blame it on--it's the same as when we were kids and broke something and when asked, we would blame it on a sibling.

For those who follow the fundie beliefs, it's a way to hide behind a belief system that gives them an imperfect god, one who is very similar to themselves, including such things as vengeful, petty, intolerant, and just plain spiteful. It's actually a good excuse for them to remain as fucked up as they are to begin with, without imparting on them the goal of improving themselves.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. misery is a big part of spirituality.

It's found in a lot of religions. It's a big part of Buddhism, for example.

In order to have salvation, one needs to be saved from something.

I don't mean to sound like a fortune cookie or anything.

[skygazer]

6. Very true

See post 5 for more depth in what I'm trying to say. :hi:

[KenHodson]

4. Nope, just ask politely before crawling back in

[skygazer]

7. I have no idea what this means

But thanks for responding. :hi:

[Omphaloskepsis]

27. It was a funny born again joke..

Ask before crawling back into your mothers girl parts. Born again.. Emerging from the vagina twice.

[crispini]

20. ROFL!

:spray:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[u4ic]

8. Many also have addictions

they trade one for another (ie religious addiction) instead of dealing with it.

If one is content, one usually just keeps on going, business as usual. I think it's when we're at our most vulnerable is when we're apt to change (whether that be for the good or not...)

[fla nocount]

9. Wow, never realized the connection.

Observation of the phenomena and a very brief personal experience confirms it though.

"I used to be all effed up on drugs,
Now I'm all effed up on the Lord"

Cheech & Chong-Big Bamboo

[Aristus]

10. I think it may be a part of the "Recovery Chic" culture in America today.

Just as a recovering alcoholic tends to have this sheen of virtue about him for trying to kick his addictions, over a guy who was never addicted in the first place; Christians like me who were raised in the faith and never had a 'dark night of the soul' so to speak, are viewed as "immature Christians" by the born-agains. We who have always maintained moderation in all things are viewed as less fervent and passionate in our faith than those who simply transferred their addictions and compulsions from drugs (or sex, or gambling, or whatever) to God.

It's just one more of the thousands of ways the born-agains have of saying: "We're better than you."

[skygazer]

11. Exactly

As mentioned in one of my other posts, my landlord is a religious man who attends church every Sunday and goes to a men's bible study group every wednesday. He and his wife are to me the example of what christ taught - generous, forgiving, thoughtful, understanding of the fact that he is not perfect but striving to be the best he can. Neither my SO nor I attend any kind of service, nor are we married. He treats us like family, loves us really, probably prays for us but never pressures us to be anything other than what we are. He is christian by example and as far as I know has always had a nice and happy life.

[Wapsie B]

12. Just my 2 cents worth..............

Seems like some conservative fundies led a life of decadence and debauchery while young and now wish to beat themselves up trying to live with the restraints of fundamentalism. They feel the need to beat themselves up for being human and exploring life.
There's also some who can't live in the shades of grey of life. They need this assurance, the absolute certainty that fundamentalism offers.

[deepthought42]

13. To me, it makes them more suceptible to the brainwashing

required to become 'born again'. At least crazy, fundie 'born again'. If you're happy w/your life, you're not going to look for something new to make you happy.

[matcom]

14. "Drugs or Alcohol?"

that is the first question I ask when someone is 'born again'

one or the other. every time.

[GOPisEvil]

19. Yep - trading one addiction for another.

I stole this from you - I tell that story about you saying that to your co-worker. It NEVER fails to get a laugh, because it's TRUE!

[GenDem]

17. From my experience there are two main groups

People that were born and raised fundamentalists, and have continued to live their faith as adults.

And the people that were "saved" as adults. This second group usually have had the big conversion as a result of being down and out or hitting some kind of bottom. The faith conversion ends up being like a 12 step program -- in a sense saving the person from self destruction.

I'm sure their are plenty of exceptions -- like the Catholics that have flocked to find more Jesus than what they are getting in the Catholic church.

[Monk06]

18. Born again means being able to have a nervous break down without the stigma.

[jgraz]

39. Not sure if you meant this as snarky, but you're spot on

One of the main problems with religion is that it's THE accepted "go to" delusion for the seriously mentally ill. Go to a psychiatrist and tell her you think that invisible CIA agents are following you and she'll likely prescribe some strong anti-psychotics. Tell that same doctor that you've found the lord and you believe that you'll be taken bodily up to heaven and she'll be just as likely to praise you for finding a path to peace and mental health.

[Initech]

21. I used to go to a born-again church for a while.

It seems that every single person I ever met in that church had serious self-loathing issues before becoming a born-again Christian. And I'm not joking either.

[pitohui]

22. a winner doesn't need religious hysteria

this is why it's always losers telling of how jesus "saved" them, a winner doesn't need to be saved, she's the hero of her own story already

[Jade Fox]

23. In my experience, yes....

People turn to that sort of rigid religious structure when they are looking for a cure-all. It doesn't seem to work, as a rule, but it gives them a focus and takes up a lot of their time. And when they notice it's not working, there is a built in excuse: you are not praying/surrendering/attending church (or whatever) enough.

[Left Is Write]

24. I have no idea.

If a "Born Again" were to ask me if I was saved and then "when" I was saved, I have a simple answer: I was saved on a Friday afternoon in Jerusalem about 2000 years ago.

I don't believe that people have to have an "epiphany" moment in which they "ask Jesus into their hearts" as depicted in many of those stories told.

I am a liberal Lutheran. Part of the Lutheran belief is that we are saved by grace, justified by faith. I was born okay the first time, and my infant baptism is good enough for me.

[Christa]

25. Yes

as being born again fulfills an emptiness, a need .. it is a crutch to lean on.

Strong people don't need it.

[Paladin]

28. "Hardly Anybody Comes To Jesus On Prom Night"

n/t

[GoddessOfGuinness]

29. Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me...

I once was lost but now am found.
Was blind but now I see.

I think the words to this hymn say it all with regard to the "born-again" experience.

It's too bad that the fundies have turned their religion into such cultish crap; because the foundation of their spirituality is really quite beautiful. And it's not something peculiar to "Born-Again" Christians.

History holds countless tales of people who have hit rock bottom...losing everything, including their dignity. And it's only when all this extraneous stuff is stripped from them that they discover their innate spirituality.

The drawback of living in a material society is that our spirituality ends up buried. Being "born again" doesn't stop the clutter from re-accumulating. Those who engage in a monastic lifestyle understand that relinquishing this "stuff" frees them to contemplate their spirit.

[skygazer]

33. Thoughtful post

I will admit to being a skeptic in the area of whether or not god exists. I respect other people's beliefs but find it somewhat difficult to put myself in their shoes, especially in the case of people who I can only describe as fanatic.

I truly enjoy reading about people's beliefs - there's something very powerful about the fact that virtually all human cultures have always come up with explanantions for our creation and a belief in some sort of afterlife that reflect belief in a deity.

What I find disturbing in the mindset of these fundamentalists is that their belief system seems to be one of exclusion - you're either with us or against us. Not only that, it seems to offer its followers such absolutes - and impossible absolutes. I mean, the whole basis of christianity as I understand it is faith - the knowledge that we can't know everything and that at a certain point, we have to simply have faith that god knows what he/she is doing. But they seem to have all the answers with a very rigid certainty.

Certainly hitting bottom makes a person take stock of themselves and their lives. Having hit bottom myself, I know that for a fact. My perception is that people take one of several routes - they may simply give up, they may decide they need to change for the sake of themselves or their families or whatever their touchstone is and they may find that their spirituality gives them the strength to face the trials ahead. The difference seems to be that they are still taking responsibility for their past mistakes rather than simply taking shelter in a new addiction which is how these highly regimented and insular congregations strike me.

Sorry - rambling on. The subject is quite fascinating to me.

[DeSwiss]

44. I agree that....

"there's something very powerful about the fact that virtually all human cultures have always come up with explanantions for our creation and a belief in some sort of afterlife that reflect belief in a deity."

"Though each religion has its own peculiar growth, the seed from which they spring is everywhere the same." ~ Max Muller, Origin and Growth of Religion, p. 48.


You might find this link interesting: http://www.authorama.com/god-idea-of-the-ancients-1.html">The God Idea of the Ancients - Eliza Burt Gamble

;)

[MountainLaurel]

30. Sort of

In my experience, you have to be so utterly convinced of your own evilness and so fearful of eternal hellfire that you have absolutely no self-worth.

[Arugula Latte]

31. I think so.

Someone would have to be pretty desperate in the first place to buy into that pantload ...

[Fleshdancer]

32. The one born again I know became one out of fear, not misery

Either way, I think there probably has to be some sort of big shake up in your life to force you to look to new ways of dealing with it. In the case of the person I know, it was the death of her mother that set the course.

[Orsino]

34. Eye of the Needle effect.

I believe that one might have to be desperate to look for--and find--solace in the invisible. It takes a big primate brain to believe in intangibles at all, and perhaps only the most miserable are truly able to revere the ineffable over life's seemingly more pressing concerns.

[skygazer]

35. But how do you explain those who believe without ever being desperate?

Those like my landlord who is a thoughtful, pondering christian? He's not one of those people who just mouths platitudes without thinking about them - he really delves into his christianity, goes to church every sunday, attends bible study classes but has never in his life, as far as I know, gone through any catastrophic situation that has made him desperate to find some sort of solace.

His belief is about as pure as you can get, from what I see, and he is a truly good person - and accepting of others. How do you explain the billions of people like that?

[Orsino]

43. I was trying to express statistics rather than absolutes...

...and I certainly didn't mean to exclude any individuals. I'll just note that there are all sorts of desperation, with some less obvious than others, and that it's hard to measure the depth of faith by attendance at Bible study.

Even Jesus may not have been ruling out anybody when he used the eye-of-a-needle metaphor.

[BushOut06]

45. How well do you really know your landlord?

My experience is that most "born-again" types were either born into their religion (no pun intended) and have never known any other existence, or were down on their luck when they had their "experience". One doesn't need to have gone through a "catastrophic" experience to feel depressed, to seek solace in some higher power.

[toddaa]

36. Oddly worded question but I'll give you four types of born agains

At first glance, it sounds like you are suggesting that people become miserable AFTER becoming born again, but that's not really what you are talking about.

Having been one of those "born again" types, I think there are some different types of born again Christians. There were the kinds like myself who were raised in a fundamentalist environment that became that way, usually in the adolescent years, due to upbringing and peer pressure. I was also aware of some of my friends being basically born again since as long as they can remember. Depends on how fervent your parents were. The kind you are talking about are the radical conversions and I believe they are a minority. Finally, the adult born agains are those that were raised in a typical Christian family, sowed some wild oats, then finally had to settle down and decide they were going to take their religion seriously.

What makes a person decide to be born again? Guilt. Guilt over being a loser, not living up to others expectations, or not achieving some goal that you set for yourself. Whatever kind of guilt it is, though, it feeds right into the Christian concept of sin and that's where the evangelicals will snag you. It certainly doesn't have to be anything as dramatic as drug addiction or criminal behavior, but everyone has moments of self doubt and that's the impetus for deciding to become born again. It's actually a pretty effective marketing gimmick.

[skygazer]

37. Thanks for your reply

It's helpful for me to have someone who's been on the inside, so to speak, answer this for me. My admittedly limited experience is with what you refer to as radical conversions and they did all seem to have the commonality of some sort of "hitting bottom" effect.

It does seem to me that much of the appeal comes from the idea that someone has all the answers - there seems to be a real certainty in their way of looking at religion and death in particular - the idea that they have a lock on heaven. For someone suffering with doubt or fear or guilt, that would be a powerful incentive.

[toddaa]

38. It's not pat answers they seek, but relief from guilt

When bad things happen and doubt begins to creep into their mind, they will shore up their faith by claiming that God's plan is too big for them to comprehend. I don't think the appeal is having all the answers, but more like leaving the big questions for someone else to deal with.

That really doesn't have much to do with the decision to become born again. It has much more to do with what comes after and is definitely not a specific to born again Christians, or even Christians in general.

Becoming born again is really a specific moment in your life where you basically conclude that things aren't working out as well as you planned and you also become imminently aware of your own mortality. Death and guilt are powerfully motivating factors and evangelical Christians will basically offer you a "do over" card that not only relieves you of guilt, but also allays your fear of death. After the decision is made, you are handed a handy how to list of preordained instructions that keep you from feeling guilt again or fearing death.

I don't think there's anything particularly radical about born agains. In fact, most are quite normal people who are otherwise not much different from you or I. They've just found something that helps them get through life's absurdity. It's really nothing more than a survival instinct. The fervent ones, on the other hand, never quite get over their own guilt about the things they have done and trade their fear of death with the fear of backsliding. Backsliding is an evangelical term for someone who is born again but loses interest in being a Christian and goes back to the bad habits they had before becoming born again. To defend themselves from backsliding, they go out of their way to eliminate temptation and that's when they become crazy and even dangerous.

[boomboom]

40. I was successful in life, had a stable home.....i was single and not dating,

but that was by choice. I wasn't miserable..my "reborn again" experience had nothing to do with my current situation. But, I assume I'm not typical and you do have a point.

[More Than A Feeling]

41. It certainly helped in my case.

Prayer did a great deal for my free-floating guilt complex, and believing in God gave me hope that there was more to the world than accumulating as many material possessions as you could until you died. Believing in Jesus Christ did wonders for my self-esteem. After several years of being a Christian, I no longer need prayer for that purpose, and I have found other causes, ideas, relationships. and achievements that give me hope that life is about more than money. Likewise, I can love myself without any kind of an external savior. As those things occurred, and I busied myself with them, the atmosphere that made Christian beliefs seem reasonable dissipated, and their emotional hold on me was released.

[Crunchy Frog]

42. Contemporary "born again" Christianity seems very cult-like.

Cults tend to prey predominately on the psychologically vulnerable, which generally means miserable, rootless, and with a life in shambles.

I don't know that it has always been that way. I respect Jimmy Carter, and would be interested in the circumstances of his "born again" experience.

[Coyote_Bandit]

46. I've noticed several things

about born-again Christians while living in the armpit of the Bible Belt.

First, I've noticed that Christian parents seem to raise children that are far more rebellious than many not so religious parents. Lots of reasons for that. It is not at all uncommon for these kids to have some sort of life crisis in early adulthood and become born-again. In reality these kids are returning to their roots and the way they were raised. Sometimes such a life change affords them new career opportunities. Nepotism is rampant in churches and other religious organizations.

Second, many fundie churches tend to focus on outreach activities to poor and disadvantaged areas within their community. Nothing wrong with that. However, sometimes this is done to the exclusion of more prosperous parts of the community. And sometimes the assistance to the neediest amongst us comes with strings attached. Churches want to demonstrate the good they are doing and so they use the very people they supposedly are helping. Those folks, in turn, often respond by claiming to have become born-again. Again, such a life change may afford new career opportunities - or it may be thought necessary to secure additional assistance in the future. The disadvantaged are after all often a resource for the self-righteous business folks in the church to utilize. And many within the church believe the disadvantaged are responsible for their own life circumstances.

Third, the faithful are repeatedly told and reminded of how miserable their life was before they became born-again. It is the way they are taught to understand their pre-Christian life. That perception becomes their understanding of reality. Even for those who never had any truly traumatic experiences. Obviously, this also serves to build a certain loyalty to the church and to instill fear in leaving the faith.

[Zhade]

47. Like all cults, BAC leaders exploit such people.

I should know, it happened to me - more than once.

(I was a terribly unhappy person for much of my life. Once I gave up trying to buy into gods, I grew into a happy, whole person.)