Losing my Religion

[Jagger69]

After years of being a practicing Christian (Episcopal), I recently stopped attending church. I have discovered that the church exists NOT to help others as it advertises, but instead to help itself as a self-fulfilling entity. I recall our priest ranting from the pulpit on his annual stewardship drive about how important it was for us to give a significant portion of our money to God. What rubbish! We're not giving our money to God....we're giving it to the church!!

I had been involved in many aspects of the church at one time. I had been an usher for years and my wife and I helped conduct the Children's Choir. We participated in church fundraisers and functions whenever we could. We gave a donation of several thousand dollars to make improvements to the church itself and gave money ostensibly to aid hurricane victims in Honduras, famine victims in Africa and abused children here in Texas.

However, about a year and a half ago my 6-year old grandson was stricken with cancer and, after a brave and courageous battle, he passed away in December, the week before Christmas. There was general knowledge of what was happening to him at our church and from time to time I was told that he was being prayed for, etc. Unbelievably, when he died, NO ONE from the church extended any outreach to us. I was stunned, hurt and, most of all, enlightened.

I used to sit in church and look around me at all those hypocrites mouthing words to prayers that had no substance and psalms that were downright idiotic. Have you ever read and thought about what the message is in some of the psalms? They are preposterous for the most part! Yet here these people would sit, week after week, reciting the same tired drivel that represents the bulk of the Old Testament in a dull and monotonous unison that would literally put you to sleep. Did any of these people ever stop and think about the banality of what they were uttering? Is this what they truly believed??

My wife and I attended a Cursillo (a religious retreat for married couples to strengthen their faith and their marriage) a couple of years ago and we held some rotational round-table discussions about various subjects regarding interpretation of scripture. There was an Episcopal priest who moderated discussion at each table. Now, I have always been puzzled why the God of the Old Testament is depicted as being a jealous, demanding and punishing God and the God of the New Testament is portrayed as a loving, compassionate and forgiving God. It made no sense to me so I asked the priest who was moderating the table at which we were sitting to explain this to me. His answer made my jaw drop. He told me, "I believe that, over time and with God's decision to deliver Jesus to us, He simply changed His mind about how He should approach mankind". Huh? God CHANGED HIS MIND???? You've got to be kidding!! And to think that this was actually an ordained priest who uttered this nonsense to me!!

After the death of my grandson, I began questioning my own faith, I asked myself "Do you truly believe the words of the Nicene Creed? Do you truly believe in the Holy Trinity and in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?". After some serious soul searching, the honest answer began to make itself evident to me. It was not so much that I didn't believe as much as it was that I just didn't know. I had doubts. Is there a God? I'd like to think so but, hell, who knows for sure? Where in the Bible does Jesus ever tell us that we need to worship him as an incarnation of God? Where does it say that we have to believe in him as our only Lord and Savior if we are to find redemption? I can't find anywhere where he makes those statements. And the Holy Ghost? I never really got the gist of what that was supposed to be. Hell, when I was a kid I remember that I used to be afraid that the Holy Ghost might suddenly just show up in my bedroom some night while I was sleeping and scare the living shit out of me! LOL

The truth is, I don't know what I believe. I am a science buff so I like things that can be scientifically proven to be factual. There is none of that with any religion that I know of. Blind faith is the basis for all religious philosophies and that's a trait I find hard to acquire and accept. Every time I try to convince myself to be that way, a little voice in the back of my head asks, "Where's the proof?". There is none.

I want to believe in a supreme being, a master plan, God or whatever you want to call it. I want to believe that this God made me what I am and gave me the gift of free will and, as such, would never judge or punish me for exercising that will. I want to believe that God loves me and loves all of us and wants us to be happy and to love each other. I want to believe in the wonderful and revolutionary teachings of Jesus pertaining to God and what God wants from us. I want to believe that I can be a good and caring individual and not be condemned to Hell just because I don't subscribe to organized religion or am accepting of Jesus Christ as my only Lord and Savior. I want to believe in everlasting life and that there is a better place for us beyond our existence here on Earth.

These are the things I want to believe. Until I do, or even if I do, I have lost my religion. My quest to find it again continues.

[Sanity Claws]

1. Gaining spirituality

My eyes about religion were opened when I was 13 and my mother died of cancer. My church and religion did not help me at all during the terrible time. I turned away from God entirely. In more recent years, I realized that the problem was the church and religion, not God/Spirit/Creator. I have become much more spiritual and see God in so many things now. I identify very much with your turning away from a church. I hope you continue your spiritual search in other ways.

[Maat]

3. And one sure can continue it in other ways!

:hug:

[Maat]

2. I'm SO sorry to hear about your grandson.

I'm sending all of the healing energy I can your way. No one should have to go through the loss of a child.

I'm also praying (sending positive energy into the world, if you prefer) that you proceed on your path with as few other challenges as possible, and with ease!


I, personally, just had to find the right church, where it wasn't about the money. I'm part of a local Church of Religious Science ( not Scientology or Christian Science, www.rsintl.org ); this church honors each individual's unique path (spiritual or lack thereof). It is a very positivity church, in which the congregants help you get in touch with positive thinking practices, and in which we believe we are all equally divine (and that everyone's unique energy/consciousness continues on). There is not one thing harsh or judgmental about the One, in our opinion. I also attend services at the Unitarian-Universalist, which is very oriented towards helping the community and social activism (I really enjoy that).

I forgot: a big hug!
:hug:

[keithjx]

4. Or finding it....

Just a little background first - My father was a priest in the Episcopal church for 15 years and a bishop for another 12. I was actively a part of the Epis. church for my entire life until my mid-twenties. Also, I have a physics undergrad degree and a law degree, presently practicing law for a state Department of Revenue.

First, the priest that said God changed his mind seems to have lost his. He's entitled to that belief, but that discounts that God is beyond time, etc., and dealing with us for a few thousand years isn't going to "convince" God to take a different approach. Talk about humanizing God - It's a pretty worthless answer in my mind for many reasons.

I can't tell you how often I've asked myself the same ?s growing up, and while you may feel that you are losing your religion, you're also finding it. I've always found blind faith strange, fear-full, and in many cases dishonest. What you are doing by questioning is making your faith your own.

Where's the proof? It's wherever you find it. My wife and I just had a little boy 16 days ago, and that's a lot of proof for me. Looking back over my life, I'm incredibly lucky to always have held the belief (discounting teenage angst, etc.) that things will work out. They always have, I'm always in a better place after adversity than before, and that is the foundation of my faith. I have no proof, just the empirical experience of my life, which is no gaurantee that tomorrow will bring the same. So I don't KNOW that everything will be okay, but I believe it fully, I trust it fully. And the only credit I can give for it is to God. Because I'm not nearly competent enough to make things work out this way for me, and I'm not that lucky.

I have plenty of problems with the church, which is why I left it. I still carry plenty of its beliefs, and that is fine with me. But the core of my faith is my own, and it's founded on my relationship with God. It can't be taught. It won't come just because I want it to. But at this point, it is undeniable to me.

Good luck in your journey.... Believe me, I'm nowhere near done with mine, but for today, my belief is unshakable, regardless of the questioning I continue to do. Never stop asking!!! You'll find the answers or they'll find you, if you're open to them.

KJ

[redqueen]

6. Congratulations

:)

[keithjx]

14. Re-reading my post above

I hope I don't sound like a sanctimonious asshole. The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that my spiritual growth didn't cease when I left the church, but the personalization and intimacy of my faith increased (and continues to). With all the good spiritual advice, the warmth, and the support available here on DU , you'll have a lot of friends for the journey.

good luck again.
KJ

[redqueen]

16. I was only saying congrats...

on the birth of your son.

I didn't see anything sanctimonious at all... or was your reply to me a mistake? :shrug:

Either way... peace. :)

[redqueen]

5. Semantics... ugh.

"Religion" is such a minefield. It means different things to different people.

It doesn't seem to me that you have lost anything substantial, though it may feel that way. It seems to me that your eyes have been opened to a wider truth... that we *can't* know, so why pretend as if we do? It's ridiculousness, and it only serves to divide us from each other, and where's the good in that?

It seems to me that you still recognize what many refer to as spirituality... that being the case, I wish you joy & luck in discovering all the new and different ways there are of perceiving the divine.

Peace. :)

[BurtWorm]

7. Congratulations for examining your beliefs honestly.

I just finished reading a book called "The Closing of the Western Mind," by Charles Freeman, which was about how Roman imperialism and Christianity conspired in the Middle Ages to shut down rational thought, and they accomplished this by making heresy (i.e., speculative disagreement) a capital crime and uniformity of belief mandatory. The author's thesis is that Church history is much more political than has ever been fully and freely acknowledged, especially by the Catholic--but even by the reformist Protestant--churches. Focusing on the political in church history brings to the forefront the bizarre fact that so much of Christian doctrine--the sanctity of Mary, the Trinity, the doctrines on free will, purgatory, original sin--has no basis in the scriptures and was made up as time went along. It's enough to make an unbeliever of anybody.

[Possumpoint]

8. Me Too

Lost my faith in Christianity several years ago. No need to go into the details. I still believe in God. I thank him on a daily basis for the beautiful world he has given to us to live in. On top of that the universe is such a wondrous thing I can't believe it to be an accident.

Look into your heart and find what you still believe in. For me, it is the basic rule, do good for good sake. Whenever I practice that I feel good about myself.

Read someplace that Christianity is the third incantation of the same myth. That is god born on earth of a virgin and having twelve disciples. Take a look at Horus of Egypt and the history of Budda.

[Evoman]

9. What do you think would happen to you if you stopped your quest to find your religion?

What if you just accepted what your mind is trying to tell you? Does it scare you, becoming an agnostic (or atheist)? If you don't believe in the tenents of christianity, and you don't like the people at church, then is it worth it to you to use your time and energy to get something back that you may not need.

Anyhow, I want to welcome you to this forum. Whatever you decide to do, know that we are here if you ever need to talk.

Evoman

[Az]

10. The nature of belief

The brain stores memories based on emotional relevance. The things we accept as true are those things the mind most strongly has an emotional weight to. The emotional weight of a memory can be bolstered by the significance of the event or by the repetition of the event. There are additional ways to bolster memories such as by association with other emotion inducing things (ie music, pain, etc).

When we stop to consider the things we believe the mind measures the various memories we have that relate to the notion being considered. Not all such beliefs agree with each other. We can have many conflicting notions within our memories. But it is the combined emotional weight of such ideas that agree with each other that the subconscious passes to the waking mind as the substance of our beliefs.

When there is insufficient association with an idea or there is a near balance of conflicting information associated with an idea the mind enters into a stressful condition we call doubt or uncertainty. While in this condition the mind can become riddled with anxiety (depending on how critical the issue may be). To this end the brain develops tools with which to end this balance. These tools can include such things as superstition, looking for sings of portent, peer pressure, reason, and rational thought.

Reason and rational thought are important tools that have brought us a great ways in modern society. But the thing about them is that the mind does not turn to them unless doubt exists within it about a particular subject. That is if the mind has a strong belief about a subject then it is nearly impossible for reason or rational thought to impact it unless there is a tremendous emotional impact to the issue.

For a person to change their mind about a thing it is necessary for their emotions to be overcome by the new information. The typical way this happens is by a slow accumulation of contrary information that is accepted by the mind. The buildup of the emotional relevance will result in an eventual internal struggle where the mind rejects the old belief and accepts the new one.

In the case of religion faith is involved. Faith can be thought of as a belief about what you are supposed to believe. A sort of template for belief. Due to repetition and possible personal experience faith can be quite strong and a prominent aspect of a person's world view. If something raises the emotional rejection of this faith beyond their emotional reliance on that faith it can trigger a crisis of faith. As much of their way of looking at the world is tied to this it can become a very chaotic and stressful event.

But not all such shifts occur slowly. Strong emotional events that contradict one's expectations based on faith can trigger a crisis of faith. The death of a child, the destruction of one's home, any dramatic alteration of one's life can provide a tremendous and destructive blow to such beliefs. The emotions of the event so overwhelm the beliefs concerning how the world should be that a massive rebellion goes off inside the mind and long buried contradictory notions are suddenly bolstered and push out the previously dominant beliefs.

Because the shift in belief is so sudden the new beliefs are not as well developed. This can result in the person feeling lost for a time while they build up their new understanding of the world. Depression can be a very common thing during this time. Many people are not able to overcome the loss of their faith and find themself drifting back into the same communities that instigated the beliefs in the first place which begins to reassert them. Others find alternate world views to replace the faith they once had. And some do manage to use reason and rational thought to reassemble a world view that allows them to proceed with their own sense of the world.

I understand what you are going through. It can be difficult. Added to your issues is the fact that there are many belief systems which by their nature are predatory and look for people who are undergoing such crisies of faith. They will offer condolences and all manner of emotional support for your plight. And in that way they begin building emotional support for their particular world view. Its not a malicious thing. It is just patterns that develop within such social constructs. Its a sort of evolution. Those constructs which are effective at passing themself on to others are those which survive. Those which do not propogate do not survive. This is how all religions work. It does not matter if the religion is true of false. If it does not spread it dies. If it is successful at propogating itself it will spread.

[sallyseven]

11. My religion which has changed from Catholic

to "what do you believe" religion. The gospel is try not to screw up badly. Respect the other guy, lying and cheating is a no no. Money is not the be all end all and "Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you". Pretty simple and doable. My thoughts on the bible are that it was done by a bunch of chauvinist sitting around a campfire trying to scare the pants off of everyone. I do believe in God and do respect my fellow man. (except george bush and 90% of the republicans )It is pretty simple.

[OnTheOtherHand]

12. doubt is excellent

The whole shtick about happy churchgoing faith machines has very little to do with the life of Jesus or anything else. Don't get me wrong, I know lots of truly wonderful churchgoing people.

A long time ago I read a wide-ranging book by a philosopher which, at one point, took dead aim at the notion of Pascal's Wager -- vulgarly, that one should believe in God because if God doesn't actually exist, hey, nothing lost, and if He does, well, jackpot! The philosopher asked, what if God has a special contempt for people who would pretend to believe in God just on the off chance that there might be something in it for them? Hmm. What if? Wouldn't that be cosmic justice after all?

Jesus seems to have spent an awful lot of time mocking sanctimony and empty piety. Maybe I'm missing something, but his value system seems pretty close to yours. As for all those other folks... well, in fairness, a lot of people just don't know what they are supposed to do in the face of loss. But they damn well ought to figure out. They will get plenty of practice, that is for sure.

(Oh, I don't especially believe in a dichotomy between a punishing OT God and a welcoming NT God. My Jewish friends don't seem more afraid of God than my Christian friends, maybe less so.)

[Wanet]

13. From another nominal Episcopalian

Dear Jagger -- I am so sorry for the loss of your grandson. It's unbelievably cruel that no one in the parish helped your family through that time. I'm assuming even the priest did nothing?

I am also an Episcopalian (joined as a young adult) and music director of an Episcopal church. The church I attended for a year and I was pregnant with my daughter (now 11), not one person, including the priest, asked my name, when baby was due, etc. I was blown away. The pastor of that parish is now the Bishop of Northern California.

I have found over the years that I no longer believe a lot of church doctrines (the Trinity, the Atonement, Nativity story, etc.). I have done a lot of reading about what Jesus actually taught and his earliest followers thought about him, and believe that the church has gone terribly, terribly wrong.

I am trying to be a follower of the real Jesus, but feel like I'm living a lie when I stand up in church when they say the Creed (which I no longer recite). I have found the books of Marcus Borg very helpful in getting back to what I think is a true and reasonable picture of Jesus and God. I would highly recommend his "Meeting Jesus again for the First Time."

Anyway, I just wanted you to know you are not alone in the way that you feel. Please take care. -- Wanet

[Silent3]

15. Even as an atheist, I can say there are bad reasons for giving up...

...on one's religion.

First of all, let me express my sorrow for your loss. Please don't take anything I say here as disrespect for your feelings in this matter.

The thing is, however, even before you were personally affected, you had to at least be intellectually aware of the fact that bad things happen to good people all the time, and that church members don't always live up to the values they profess to hold.

If you knew all of these things before your personal loss, why didn't the questioning begin then? Whatever value your religion and your church had before this tragic death, they still have that same value now. If there was truly some value there, the pain of a personal loss is not a good reason to reject that value.

Of course, as an atheist, I'd say the value wasn't there in the first place. It sadly took a personal shock, however, for you to start questioning that value.

That your religion didn't provide the comfort and support you would have hoped for in a time of need is, as I see it, a poor reason to look for another religion. It's a poor reason to become an atheist too -- yes, I'm quite willing to freely admit that one can become an atheist for bad, poorly thought out reasons too.

You shouldn't believe something for the side effect of that belief -- comfort, support, social contact, sense of purpose, etc. None of those things make a belief system true, they only make something "effective" in the sense that a drug is effective. Believe in something only if it's worthy of belief -- if it makes sense, if it's consistent with the realities of the world, if it's coherent and rational, if it leads you to verifiable understanding that you wouldn't have without it. One of the worst reasons to believe in something is simply because it coincides with how you wish things worked in this world, because it appeals in a purely emotional way with how you think things should be.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

17. What a heart-felt

and heart-breaking post. I can't even begin to imagine losing a grandchild. Well, yes, I can, and it would be unbearable. To lose the loved child, and see your own child in grief... I am so sorry.

The church is hugely flawed and generally a lousy place, because humans are hugely flawed and can be lousy. I had a similar situation when my parents became shut-ins and never heard from their Episcopal church again (you know, their checks stopped, too.) And then they just couldn't find time to bury my father until I mentioned that his close relative was coming, a presiding Bishop from another country. Suddenly they couldn't do enough for us. We took our "business" to a little mission.

On the other hand, some of my warmest, most wonderful memories are about church folks and church events. But then, my only experience with a pedophile and embezzlers were all in the church, too. A real mixed bag.

Good luck to you as you walk the path that only you can walk for yourself. It is a challenge.

[patrice]

18. Don't mistake a "church" for the Church.

What I'm trying to say is - what usually happens with religion is like mistaking a globe for Earth, there are similarities, but there are also falsehoods. You can't see the falsehoods if you don't stop looking at, and conceptualizing, the globe and start experiencing Reality.

Churches and religion and the Bible and all of that only point to something that is way greater than they are and they are in the business of preventing you from noticing that fact. Too many people EQUATE them with the spiritual cosmos (whatever that is), so their reactions to the mysteries of death are limited by their old narco-cliches.

For some reason some people are changed by the pain of a loved one's death. My husband, my sister, and my Dad have passed on. All of them rather quickly (from cancer). My husband died in my arms. People told me to "give it to the Lord". I knew I didn't want to, because the pain I felt was an artifact of my relationship to him. That kind of pain can crack you, open you up to . . . .

Amongst other things, I also am a rationalist and have had reason to become familiar with the limitations inherent in rational empiricism, the reasons why it can say only "There is thus far no evidential support for what we call 'God', therefore there may be no 'God'". Or, at minimum, it has nothing to say on the subject.

I'm also a student of literature which has made me sensitive to common assumptions made about language. Like that globe, Language is not the same thing as whatever it points to. Whatever anyone says about "God" or "the soul", no matter how accurate or in-accurate, is not equal to whatever God or the soul actually are. Because language is what it is, it is ALWAYS more or less in error. Reality, whatever it is, existed before we made up a lot of words for it, parsing it out into "life", "death" and other such concepts.

To me all of this means that experience is everything.

I don't go to church anymore, but if you'd find a community helpful with the changes that you are going through, I can, though personal experience, recommend the Unitarians I've been around as a free and diverse group, though in some instances somewhat self-absorbed. And I can recommend the American Friends' Service Committee, i.e. the Quakers, because they almost never say anything about anything you're supposed to believe, but focus instead on what the work of Social Justice is and how to go about it in their communities.

[Jagger69]

19. Thanks to all for the advice and support

I truly appreciate some of your comments. I'll keep you posted as my journey evolves. Thanks again.

;-)

[JerseygirlCT]

20. You've suffered a dreadful loss

And I'm so very sorry for that.

And now, you're suffering from several others, as well.

Finding out that the congregation you belonged to didn't care enough to extend itself in your moment of need must have felt like a terrible betrayal. I can't imagine how hurtful that must have been.

And add to that a crisis of faith -- one of those things, I promise you, that most people go through (maybe often!)... boy, so not a great time to deal with that now!

I can't say anything really that will heal your pain, especially the pain of losing your grandchild. I can say that I know my parish (I'm also Episcopalian, BTW)would have responded in a very, very different way. So it may be that the group you belonged to were not the group you need at all. We're small, we hold a variety of opinions on things political and theological, but when push comes to any sort of shove, I'm always amazed at the outpouring. It can be a true Godsend when you really need some support. I wish you had had that.

As to the doubts? If it helps any, my pastor is fond of quoting someone else (perhaps a teacher of hers?) who said that doubt is not the opposite of faith; doubt is the leading edge of faith.

Questions are hard, but good. I've been in a similar place for years. I often feel a bit cheated -- it seems so easy for others! But trust that you'll be led where you need to go. The good thing abou the Episcopal church is that you really don't have to hold to any sort of theological orthodoxy. There's room for everyone, and encouragement to use the brains you were given.

Once again, I'm really sorry for your loss. And I hope you find your way to a more peaceful time.