Mandaean religion in danger of extinction

[Dracos]

Persecuted in Iraq, group is also dwindling through intermarriage
- Among the casualties of the Iraq war is a little-known religious faith called Mandaeanism that has survived roughly two millennia and whose adherents believe that John the Baptist was their great teacher.

There were more than 60,000 Mandaeans in Iraq in the early 1990s, but only about 5,000 to 7,000 remain. Many have fled amid targeted killings, rapes, forced conversions and property confiscation by Islamic extremists, according to a report released last week by the New Jersey-based Mandaean Society of America.

Among the roughly 1,500 U.S. Mandaeans, there have been continual phone calls with endangered friends and relatives, collections of money and unsuccessful lobbying efforts in Washington to get Mandaeans out of Iraq, Jordan and Syria.

"Unfortunately, we're not big in numbers, and numbers talk," said Dr. Suhaib Nashi, 53, a pediatrician who helps run the Mandaean Society of America out of his Morristown home.

Mandaean leaders say tens of thousands of their brethren are scattered around the world, including communities in New York and Detroit.

With the dispersion comes concern that the faith is withering, especially as more Mandaeans marry non-Mandaeans.

"There's not much hope for us to survive to two or three generations," Nashi said.

FULL STORY : http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/living/religion/16711369.htm

[flamingyouth]

1. It's very sad

I read a book about the Mandeans recently, but it was written before the war started.

Thanks for posting this. :thumbsup:

[EvolveOrConvolve]

2. I feel nothing

It's too bad that they suffer from abuse, but anytime a belief system based on ancient mythologies bites the dust I smile a little inside.

[rpannier]

6. So....

had the entire Jewish people and their religion been wiped off the face of the Earth by the pogroms, the Nazi's, etc you'd have had a little smile because...

"...anytime a belief system based on ancient mythologies bites the dust I smile a little inside."

[Az]

7. The people deserve our empathy

But the religion? The religion is an abstract construct. Its loss affects anthropologists and sociologists. But their concern is for the loss of something to study. These are people. Not lab rats. Their value is in their personhood. Not in their commodity as an anthropological study of ancient religions.

[Zhade]

42. Exactly. I mourn the people, not the religion.

NT!

[EvolveOrConvolve]

8. Don't put words into my mouth

I'm not smiling at the horrific abuse being heaped upon these people. I'm smiling because another set of out-of-date mythologies won't be clogging the human psyche.

[okasha]

10. You may not be smiling at the abuse

but there's a certain "end justifies the means" attitude in your post. The extinction of culture is genocide, whether it's on the scale of thousands or millions.

[cyborg_jim]

11. Genocide?

No, the death of a genetically related population is genocide. Culture is not genetic.

[struggle4progress]

17. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948)

... Article 2

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group ...

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

[cyborg_jim]

27. Then I have to think that 'genus' is poorly used here

It is merely correlation rather than causation that cultural facets follow genetic sub-groups. As we all know law doesn't always follow from fact.

No doubt killing large groups of people for any arbitrary reason is horrid but killing an idea - as difficult as that is - is simply not of the same order. One might even laud such an act if the idea were, ironically enough, racist or fascist in nature.

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. No, that's not genocide

And you're devaluing the term by using it so loosely.

[okasha]

13. Given that your ancestors (assuming you're white)

murdered my ancestors by the millions, I assure you that I neither use the term loosely nor devalue it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. Well, whatever you're claiming involves 'murder', doesn't it?

That would be genocide. The end of a religion, because no-one believes in it any more, wouldn't. That's why I say "The extinction of culture is genocide" is devaluing the murders of your ancestors.

[cyborg_jim]

15. Culture is not genetic

The death of a culture can occur without a single drop of blood. To insist otherwise is to not understand the term - be you purple, green, yellow, red, black, white, orange or magenta.

[Meshuga]

19. I agree that culture is not genetic

But the term "cultural genocide" does exist as it is used in articles of the United Nations. Cultural Genocide is an intentional and systematic destruction of an ethnic culture. Perhaps that is not a good term but it does exist. Perhaps "ethnocide" would be a better term?

[toddaa]

20. But that's not necessarily the case here

Cultural genocide would be like what the US government did when it took Native American children away from their parents and forced them into reservation schools which stripped them of their language and their beliefs. On the other hand, if an ancient religion loses adherents simply because no one believes anymore, that's a far cry from cultural genocide. Was it bad that they were persecuted in Iraq? No question. But they fact that once free from persecution, they still can't maintain their beliefs in the world due to not being about to compete with more prominent religious beliefs just lends credence to religious belief being memetic and is certainly nothing to lose sleep over.

[Meshuga]

23. Sure

"On the other hand, if an ancient religion loses adherents simply because no one believes anymore, that's a far cry from cultural genocide."

I agree with you. I thought that by adding a definition of "cultural genocide" in my post (#19) that you are replying to would make that clear.

[okasha]

24. You're reading the article selectively.

How is being murdered or raped or driven out of one's homeland because of one's religion being "free from persecution?"

[Az]

16. There is a world of difference between murder and loss of culture

This is where you are getting hung up in this dialog. The people that do not see as much to be alarmed about in this story as you do are dismissing the loss of a religion. They do not support the harm, degradation, or murder of people. It is merely the loss of a religious belief that they are unconcerned about.

[okasha]

18. You're splitting the hairs way too finely.

The loss of religion/culture is being accomplished through murder, rape and other violence. Your position seems to be that that is just collateral damage to a greater good--which I find rather appalling.

The legal definition of genocide, by the way:

Genocide is the mass killing of a group of people as defined by Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

http://www.en.wikipedia/org/wiki/Genocide

[Az]

21. The 7 blind wise men and the elephant

We appear to be looking at the same issue and seeing different things. What some of us are rejecting is the empathy for the death of a religion. We do not reject concern for those who are being persecuted for their practice of it.

[toddaa]

22. There's more than one way to split a hair

If the persecution stops, but the cultural beliefs still wither away, is it still cultural genocide?

[cyborg_jim]

25. Frankly cultural 'genocide' is occuring constantly

Is our culture the same culture of ten years ago? Will it be the same in ten years? I doubt it. Does that mean we are undergoing constant genocide?

No.

Cultures rise and fall. It is inevitable. It is folly to try and force a culture that has had its time to persist.

[okasha]

26. Not this particular hair.

If a religion dies out simply from lack of adherents, that's not genocide. The Shakers, for example, are not victims of genocide.

An entire culture, on the other hand, presents a different problem. Are Native American nations still victims of cultural genocide, even though they're not currently being slaughtered? Does the permanent loss of a language constitute an element of cultural genocide? Loss of traditional religions and oral histories? At what point does the destruction of a culture become okay with you?

[toddaa]

32. Not the same as Native Americans

The Mandaeans do not belong to a separate indigenous race. Their culture was entirely based on religious beliefs and an enclosed and intensely private one at that. Frankly, I'm surprised they lasted this long as they did. Iraq, being a very old land, probably has a couple of other religious sects that are going to end as a result of the civil war. Ever hear of the Yazidis? Religious cultures are far more elastic than indigenous ones so I think it's probably difficult to pinpoint when they actually come to an end. For all we know, Mandaeanism stopped being a viable religious sect long before the Iraq war.

[kiahzero]

29. So if the Nazis just forced the Jews to convert, that'd be OK?

After all, it'd be eliminating a religion, which is good to you.

[Az]

30. Not at all

Any force used on people to change their belief is wrong. But if you read the article you will see that the primary cause of the decline in their faith is due to intermarriage in the dispersed remnants of their group. Their religion is becoming diluted in the larger world and cannot survive. It is not the people that are dying in the world. It is their particular beliefs.

Yes there is a tragedy going on in Iraq. There is no questioning that. Force is being applied to people about their beliefs. But the issue being discussed by those of us who dismiss the loss of a religion is focused on the normal atrophying of a faith without an effective propagation in place any longer.

Many religions have come and gone in this world. And not all failed due to being forced off by opposing beliefs (though many have been). The Shakers died out because they had as part of their faith the rule that they were not allowed to have children. Not a very effective way to propagate a belief. The loss of the Shakers is lamentable to those who study sociology and anthropology. But it is not a concern to those outside their belief.

Did you mourn the end of the Hale Bop Cult or did you mourn the loss of the people that were part of it? Did you mourn the loss of Rev Jim Jones' cult or did you mourn the death of its followers.

The point here is that it is the people and their life that are worthy of concern. A religion that dies out is simply a belief system that was not effective at promoting itself in the world. A curiosity to scientists and historians and at best a lesson to the rest of us.

[okasha]

31. You seem to be willfully ignoring part of the article

Reread this part:

Among the casualties of the Iraq war is a little-known religious faith called Mandaeanism that has survived roughly two millennia and whose adherents believe that John the Baptist was their great teacher.

There were more than 60,000 Mandaeans in Iraq in the early 1990s, but only about 5,000 to 7,000 remain. Many have fled amid targeted killings, rapes, forced conversions and property confiscation by Islamic extremists, according to a report released last week by the New Jersey-based Mandaean Society of America.

The Mandaeans in Iraq were/are not falling victim to normal attrition but are being deliberately targeted--killed, raped, displaced--because of their religion. According to the United Nations and international law, that's genocide. Five to seven thousand people would, of course, be quite enough to keep the Mandaean faith from dying out if they were not being actively persecuted.

It's Mandaeans elsewhere whose numbers are slipping because they haven't figured out yet how to deal with mixed marriages and their issue. That's a problem internal to the faith, and they'll either solve it or die out in the places where they've settled. That's a matter which is entirely in their own hands. That's not genocide. It's a matter of being able to adapt, or not.

[Az]

33. Acknowledging that

I have quite clearly said that it is wrong and a tragedy that they are being assailed. And yes it is Mandaeans elsewhere whose numbers are slipping.

I think part of the problem is that this is the second pass for this story. It was posted in an earlier thread and the assault on the people was not part of the story. As such this seemed to be a retread of that story and its attending concern for the loss of a religion was associated with it. The fact that it is here in the Religion and Theology forum adds to this impression that the focus is on the ending of a religion.

Simply put if anyone is made to feel any stress or pressure to lose their religion that is wrong. If people are killed or harmed in an effort to destroy their religion, that is wrong. I don't think there has been anyone in any part of this thread that would disagree with these statements.

The only point that has been attempted to be made is that the concern should be reserved for the people and not for a religion.

[okasha]

34. It was exactly the same story,

including the murders and rapes.

Are you telling me that you feel posters are still responding to some faultily remembered article rather than the one in front of them? That the fact that it's in the R/T forum rather than elsewhere somehow magically edits out the violence and puts the emphasis on the dying out of the faith while obviating the dying of the people of that faith?

I'm sure some here appreciate your defense of their position, but a dollop of whipped cream on top doesn't turn a cow patty into strawberry shortcake. It's still bullshit.

[Az]

36. Read the subject line of the OP

What is its focus? What is it talking about? What forum is it in? What are the first paragraphs about? It is not unreasonable to assume that the primary concern for discussion of the OP was the extinction of a religion. Largely because that is what the subject line says. The reaction of those who you think are callous was to the subject line and not to the violence buried deeper in the article.

Now you can go on thinking that they are all a bunch of blood thirsty monsters who revel at the thought people being killed if it results in another religion vanishing from the earth. Or you can presume they are human and do not approve of people being harmed and were only responding to the title of the thread.

This is how conflicts escalate. No attempt is made on at least one side to see the other sides point of view.

[trotsky]

37. I think you pretty much nailed it, Az.

Now you can go on thinking that they are all a bunch of blood thirsty monsters who revel at the thought people being killed if it results in another religion vanishing from the earth.

Clearly that seems to be what okasha desperately wants to believe.

[okasha]

38. Oooo--another woo-woo!

Amazing Kreskin, look out!

[trotsky]

40. Your deep and thoughtful reply to clarify your position is appreciated.

Thanks! :hi:

[okasha]

39. So the thread is only about the subject line of the OP?

Not about the contents of the OP?

Better shake that whipped cream can a little harder, AZ. It's starting to splutter.

[Az]

41. You have a fairly large chip on your shoulder

Yes. The reaction is mostly to the subject line. Have you seen anyone in this thread claim that it was no big deal if a few people die to get rid of a religion? You have a straw man and you are trying to beat the living daylights out of it. You are being exceedingly disingenuous. It is becoming clear to me that the problem is not so much about communication. You seem to have no interest in communicating and seem pretty quick on the insult. I don't know that there is anything civil I can say to you as you seem to have no desire to be civil.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

28. Again, I think you're attempting to put words in my mouth

I don't advocate the abuse, torture, murder, or destruction of any people. If, however, their outdated ideas die out, I think that's a good thing.

It's ironic that the abuse is occurring BECAUSE of religious strife. It shows to me that my view is correct, however you slur it. Less of the mystical thinking and more reason would be a very very good thing for the world and her peoples.

[rpannier]

3. absolutely tragic

Considering most of this slaughter appears to have occurred post-invasion I think we owe it to these people to provide them refuge.

But...if we did that, I guess it would be an admission that we're failing there and the terrorists would somehow be emboldened by it and the admission would demoralize the troops.

Or something like that.

[JerseygirlCT]

9. I agree with you. nt

[madrchsod]

4. that what happens when one loses the battle to the cult of jesus

the zoroaster's are facing the same fate because of not letting members marry outsiders. zoroasterism is the foundation of the one god belief of the semite tribes in the middle east

[struggle4progress]

5. related thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=111523&mesg_id=111523

[On the Road]

35. Religions Die Out All the Time

but the Mandeans are especially valuable in trying to recreate the historical Jesus.

There is a lot of distortion and overwriting in the Christian tradition going back to the first century. What the Mandean tradition does is establish a connection to a contemporary of Jesus who may even have been a mentor of his.

It's just like the progressive disapperance of the Falasha Jews of Ethiopia, whose Judaism is more primitive and harks back many centuries. Studying a tradition is much easier if there are live adherents.