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Sharia Law Will Be Recognised In UK Predicts Archbishop

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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 04:05 PM
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Sharia Law Will Be Recognised In UK Predicts Archbishop

Sharia law will be recognised in UK predicts Archbishop

PinkNews.co.uk staff writer
7th February 2008 15:15


Dr Rowan Williams

The head of the Anglican communion has said he think it is "unavoidable" that some parts of Muslim Sharia law will be adopted in Britain. Speaking on BBC Radio 4, Dr Rowan Williams said that a "constructive accommodation" must be found over issues such as divorce and added that people should not imagine "we know exactly what we mean by Sharia and just associate it with Saudi Arabia."

However, the Archbishop went on to criticise the practice of Sharia law in some Muslim states, specifically the treatment of women and extreme punishments. Homosexuality is punishable by death under Sharia and more than hundred of gay men have been put to death in Iran since the Islamic revolution in 1979.

"It seems unavoidable and, as a matter of fact, certain conditions of Sharia are already recognised in our society and under our law, so it is not as if we are bringing in an alien and rival system," said Dr Williams. "There is a place for finding what would be a constructive accommodation with some aspects of Muslim law as we already do with aspects of other kinds of religious law.

"It would be quite wrong to say that we could ever license a system of law for some community which gave people no right of appeal, no way of exercising the rights that are guaranteed to them as citizens in general. But there are ways of looking at marital disputes, for example, which provide an alternative to the divorce courts as we understand them. In some cultural and religious settings they would seem more appropriate."

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6786.html


- "Constructive accommodation?" With Sharia law? Like what, requiring softer ropes? Smaller stones? Sterile operating fields for limb amputations? Mini-burqas?

I have a better idea.......


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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 04:06 PM
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1. So much for Church and State in Britain.
When can we expect them to stone former virgins and witches?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 04:11 PM
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2. They've been a nominal theocracy since Henry VIII
Accommodating the best parts of Shari'a law is probably the best thing they can do at this point. It's not all bad, you know. Some of it is quite sensible, especially concerning property.

However, there is no DP in the UK, so that part of the law is out. Unmarried women who are found to be non virgins won't be stoned in the street. If one is, the government will jail the people who threw the stones as murderers.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 11:26 PM
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8. They've NEVER had separation of Church and State
That's an American construct. England has a national church.

As for the idea of England adopting Sharia Law, I think it's ridiculous. The Archbishop is an intelligent man, but I think that he's off the mark on this one. It's not practical. The English courts have little to do with religious law, and making an exception for Sharia Law is an awful precedent.


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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 04:33 PM
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3. I have no problem with any society that would borrow the progressive ideas...
from another society or religion in evolving their legal system. But I don't think that's what this guy has in mind.
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moggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 04:40 PM
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4. Fancy that
I can't imagine why a cleric would support the idea of religious courts!

Incidentally, Rowan? Nice dress, but hemlines are shorter this year.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Although, you should see....
....http://www.manties.net/">what he's wearing underneath those long robes....

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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Here is a source for an understanding of Sharia Law
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 09:13 PM
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7. Sigh. Rowan Williams so desperately needs to come down
from the ivory tower he inhabits. It's all theoretical up there, and so very lofty.

In fact, he's so high up, he's missing the central point - which is that secular, civil law does not have to step aside for religious law. Muslims are entirely free to seek alternatives to divorce, for instance, if both parties agree.

What's not right is for sharia to hold one party against their will to a religious solution, and then "bless" that solution as the law.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 03:30 PM
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9. He is a talented academic and a terrible church leader
Most who reacted in horror haven't read his thinking on this, and I haven't either. Rowan has never understood the political aspect of his job as leader, and how things he says a theologian that are intellectually perhaps true, but difficult to understand and political dynamite. This certainly exploded. There were 17,000 comments on the story on the BBC newsite.


http://faith-theology.blogspot.com/2008/02/on-sharia-and-hysteria-or-why-rowan.html

Benajmin Myers.

To be honest, I reckon the Archbishop’s biggest problem is simply that he’s so much smarter than anyone else in the Church, and of course infinitely smarter than the poor news media, who haven’t the faintest idea what he’s actually talking about. The result is a public spectacle of stunning, breathtaking misunderstanding.

Anyway, you can read Rowan Williams’ entire lecture for yourself here: it’s a dense, thoughtful, informed, and highly nuanced reflection (prepared for an audience of lawyers and jurists) on the complex relation between law, citizenship, and the identity of religious communities.


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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Archbishop's Lecture - Civil and Religious Law in England: a Religious Perspective
Edited on Fri Feb-08-08 11:09 PM by struggle4progress
Excerpts with link to full lecture in textbox below

It will be clear to anyone who reads the full text that ABC does not really say what popular accounts attribute to him and that he is cognizant of and sympathetic to standard objections

His argument, as I understand it, runs rather along these lines: (1) the aim of the modern democratic state should be, so far as reasonably possible, to establish a context in which the freedom and dignity of individuals is ensured; (2) people's freedom and dignity depends on their ability to develop their lives and relationships in light of conscience; (3) our ideas about safeguarding human freedom and dignity are imperfect and not not as universal as we pretend; (4) in particular, people sometimes have (what seem to them) very good reasons for wanting to resolve certain issues in ways other than those sanctioned by our supposedly universal procedures; (5) if we can sometimes accommodate exceptions, that do not really threaten human freedom and dignity, then we might actually increase freedom and dignity

... Even when some of the more dramatic fears are set aside, there remains a great deal of uncertainty about what degree of accommodation the law of the land can and should give to minority communities with their own strongly entrenched legal and moral codes. As such, this is not only an issue about Islam but about other faith groups, including Orthodox Judaism; and indeed it spills over into some of the questions which have surfaced sharply in the last twelve months about the right of religious believers in general to opt out of certain legal provisions – as in the problems around Roman Catholic adoption agencies which emerged in relation to the Sexual Orientation Regulations last spring ...

There is a recognition that our social identities are not constituted by one exclusive set of relations or mode of belonging – even if one of those sets is regarded as relating to the most fundamental and non-negotiable level of reality, as established by a 'covenant' between the divine and the human (as in Jewish and Christian thinking; once again, we are not talking about an exclusively Muslim problem) ... There is a position – not at all unfamiliar in contemporary discussion – which says that to be a citizen is essentially and simply to be under the rule of the uniform law of a sovereign state, in such a way that any other relations, commitments or protocols of behaviour belong exclusively to the realm of the private and of individual choice. As I have maintained in several other contexts, this is a very unsatisfactory account of political reality in modern societies; but it is also a problematic basis for thinking of the legal category of citizenship and the nature of human interdependence ...

If the law of the land takes no account of what might be for certain agents a proper rationale for behaviour – for protest against certain unforeseen professional requirements, for instance, which would compromise religious discipline or belief – it fails in a significant way to communicate with someone involved in the legal process ...

There is a plain procedural question .. about how existing courts function ... But there is a larger theoretical and practical issue about what it is to live under more than one jurisdiction ... In general, when there is a robust affirmation that the law of the land should protect individuals on the grounds of their corporate religious identity and secure their freedom to fulfil religious duties, a number of queries are regularly raised. I want to look at three such difficulties briefly.

The first objection to a higher level of public legal regard being paid to communal identity is that it leaves legal process (including ordinary disciplinary process within organisations) at the mercy of what might be called vexatious appeals to religious scruple. A recent example might be the reported refusal of a Muslim woman employed by Marks and Spencer to handle a book of Bible stories ...

The second issue, a very serious one, is that recognition of 'supplementary jurisdiction' in some areas, especially family law, could have the effect of reinforcing in minority communities some of the most repressive or retrograde elements in them, with particularly serious consequences for the role and liberties of women ... The problem here is that recognising the authority of a communal religious court to decide finally and authoritatively about such a question would in effect not merely allow an additional layer of legal routes for resolving conflicts and ordering behaviour but would actually deprive members of the minority community of rights and liberties that they were entitled to enjoy as citizens ... and .. legal system .. can hardly admit or 'license' protocols that effectively take away the rights it acknowledges as generally valid ...

... In a society where freedom of religion is secured by law, it is obviously impossible for any group to claim that conversion to another faith is simply disallowed or to claim the right to inflict punishment on a convert ...

... I want to move on to the third objection ... Is it not both theoretically and practically mistaken to qualify our commitment to legal monopoly? So much of our thinking in the modern world, dominated by European assumptions about universal rights, rests, surely, on the basis that the law is the law; that everyone stands before the public tribunal on exactly equal terms ...

The great protest of the Enlightenment was against authority that appealed only to tradition and refused to justify itself by other criteria – by open reasoned argument or by standards of successful provision of goods and liberties for the greatest number. Its claim to override traditional forms of governance and custom by looking towards a universal tribunal was entirely intelligible against the background of despotism and uncritical inherited privilege which prevailed in so much of early modern Europe ... Societies that are in fact ethnically, culturally and religiously diverse are societies in which identity is formed .. by different modes and contexts of belonging ...

Perhaps it helps to see the universalist vision of law as guaranteeing equal accountability and access primarily in a negative rather than a positive sense – that is, to see it as a mechanism whereby any human participant in a society is protected against the loss of certain elementary liberties of self-determination and guaranteed the freedom to demand reasons for any actions on the part of others for actions and policies that infringe self-determination ...

The rule of law is thus not the enshrining of priority for the universal/abstract dimension of social existence but the establishing of a space accessible to everyone in which it is possible to affirm and defend a commitment to human dignity as such, independent of membership in any specific human community or tradition, so that when specific communities or traditions are in danger of claiming finality for their own boundaries of practice and understanding, they are reminded that they have to come to terms with the actuality of human diversity ...

... a universal principle of legal right requires both a certain valuation of the human as such and a conviction that the human subject is always endowed with some degree of freedom over against any and every actual system of human social life ...

At the moment, as I mentioned at the beginning of this lecture, one of the most frequently noted problems in the law in this area is the reluctance of a dominant rights-based philosophy to acknowledge the liberty of conscientious opting-out from collaboration in procedures or practices that are in tension with the demands of particular religious groups ...

http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/1575



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