The bias against atheists as bad as any prejudice

[ZombieHorde]

Americans are uneasy with atheists. A recent national survey conducted by the University of Minnesota shows most Americans distrust atheists — rating atheists below recent immigrants, gays and other minorities. Americans objected to their children marrying atheists more than any other minority, and 52 percent of Americans said they would not vote for a well-qualified atheist for president.

Such attitudes are “a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” according to Penny Edgell, associate sociological professor and the study’s lead researcher.

Maybe so, but it does explain why candidates want to assure Americans of their piousness. Considering the small number of admitted atheists, it’s not surprising that many atheists, unlike the letter-writer, are afraid of coming out of the closet.

--------
How do my fellow DUers feel about this?
http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/dt.cms.support.viewStory.cls?cid=61952&sid=5&fid=1

[zanne]

1. So much for poor, persecuted Christians...nt

[Dorian Gray]

11. that response is unfair

because I know few Christians who post on this web site who actually think that we are persecuted in any way. And that comment does a disservice to the OP. It reduces a significant discussion point into a pissing contest between atheists and Christians about who is treated worse. We would all benefit more by strong commentary on this very issue.

Any prejudice that treats a group of people as an inferior class is wrong. Especially under the our constitutional structure. Our country thrives on religious freedom. We are all free to believe as we choose. It's a beautiful thing. I've never understood fear of atheists. (Sure, I understand getting hot under the collar during discussions sometimes! ;) ). I think the fear, however, is unwarranted and should be reviled. We're all human beings trying to get along in this (often cold and lonely) world, and whichever path we choose for ourselves is our business. Hating someone for their different viewpoints is closed minded, bigoted and just plain stupid.

[Realityhack]

16. I call BS

Sorry but the vast majority of Christian 'persecution' is complete BS on the scale of welfare queens driving Cadillacs.
I think in is entirely fair to call out the group as a whole on their pretend persecution that they use as a smoke screen for viciously persecuting others given the actual facts, just as it is fair to call BS on the welfare queens despite the existence (potentially) of a tiny number of people actually abusing the system.

As a group Christians claim absurd things like teaching evolution as 'persecution' (not to diminish any case of actual persecution from the board etc.). I think it's 100% fair to call them on their claim because they make a huge issue of their 'persecuted status' despite the facts blatantly disagreeing with them (not to mention them dishing out a whole heck of a lot of persecution).

[Dorian Gray]

21. Okay....

I said that Christians HERE at DU didn't do that. And since this is the audience, it's being unfairly broadbrushing within this particular community.

Having said that, I believe that all my points about bigotry and closed-mindedness in my last post stand. I hate it. I think it's ridiculous. And hateful.


I know that there are Christian groups who advocate for evolution NOT to be taught in schools, or for creationism to get equal time. (A stance I do not agree with.) But, I have yet to hear one christian claim that they are actively being persecuted because evolution is taught in schools. Maybe I just ignore articles or news stories about that topic, as I would agree that's a stupid thing to believe. But, I'd love for you to show me that has ever been claimed, let alone an active and common Christian belief. (That we are persecuted because evolution is taught in our public schools.)

[Realityhack]

23. sorry

but at no point in that one liner was 'the Christians on DU' mentioned. They are in fact a tiny percentage of christians from a massively biased sample.

Many many many many Christians claim persecution. It's completely fair to respond to a factual finding that they are nowhere near persecuted with a line such as that.
It's pretty much the same thing as saying 'so much for the liberal bias in the MSM' or 'So much for fair and balanced'.
Unfortunately I need to start working soon so I can't look up references for you but there are fringe groups that claim absurdity such as that.

[Dorian Gray]

24. I am sure that there are

fringe atheist groups who would like to outlaw religion all together. Fringe groups should never be the arbiter of anything. And I don't believe that any of the atheists posting on DU would ever advocate something such as that, even though they may actively dislike religion in general. So addressing those fringe atheists in this forum would be pointless.

Having said that, I am well aware that the post I responded to didn't mention DU Christians. But we are the audience. We are the ones reading the words, so it's difficult not to believe that they are meant for US.

[Realityhack]

27. point taken...

I can see what you mean in terms of thinking you where the subject... though see my point on 'fair and balanced'

Unfortunately the point of view that christians are somehow persecuted is far more prevelent than what I would call extreme and the same with evangelicalism in general.

[Dorian Gray]

29. It's all good!

I just wanted to point out why I sometimes feel broadbrushes on DU are unfair, even though they may not be that out of order when addressing society at large.

[Chovexani]

25. Er.

...I know few Christians who post on this web site who actually think that we are persecuted in any way.

Reading comprehension FTW.

[JerseygirlCT]

20. Absolutely.

That was well put, thank you.

The thing is, fear of atheists has to be countered like any of these sort of bigoted fears - with education, the only known cure for ignorance short of death. Understanding and respect are the key.

[RaleighNCDUer]

2. Judging by the overwhelming nuber of responses so far,

I'm guessing they don't really give a crap about them (me).

[tridim]

3. That article makes it sound like Atheists aren't "American".

I'd also like to know if these "Americans" are made up of a good cross section and not just Christian Americans.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

4. the continuing false meme that 'gettin religion' = being a moral person.

My life experience seems to suggest the exact opposite.

See, I don't believe in the magic big guy in the sky who can "wash away all my sins" I believe that I shouldn't 'sin' in the first place, and if I do 'stray' from the moral path, then I should have to deal with the consequences.

[fenriswolf]

5. wait let me get this straight

so people hate and fear me because i am an athiest?

wow thats kinda weird.

I instill fear in people? .............BWAAAA HAAA HAAA. (EVIL LAUGHTER)

[Warpy]

6. Yeah, kind of counteracts the sweet, grandmotherly image I project

these days when I tell people I don't believe a word of it, that I've been an atheist since I was a kid. Some of those folks will never speak to me again.

They remind me so much of alcoholics. If one alcoholic goes to rehab and AA to get sober, the rest of his old gang at the bar will do just about anything to get him to take that first drink to get him back. The fact that he's learning to live without the one thing that binds them together is very threatening to them.

I think it's the same with religious folks. They have a tremendous sense of community that comes from suspending reason in one area of their lives and accepting a religion. That people are able to live productive, law abiding and relatively happy lives without that group is intensely threatening to them personally and to the cohesiveness of their group.

The truth is that like most atheists, I really don't care what anybody else believes as long as they don't try to legislate it onto me. Chances are that I'd never have started to speak out if believers hadn't been trying to cram their stuff down my throat, to bully me into giving lip service so they could relax a bit, secure in the knowledge that they'd "converted" one more atheist.

The truth is that neither of us will convert the other. Belief or the lack of it might just be hard wired, something preliminary research has suggested. We atheists long ago came to terms with the existence of believers. It's time for the believers to catch up to us and realize we're out here, we aren't going to change, and we might not even be capable of it. It's time to grow up and accept us as we are, as we have done for you.

[fenriswolf]

7. i whole heartedly agree with you

the big problem is when people feel that in order to be a good (fill in the blank with most major religions) you need to protect everyone else from what is wrong according to their religion. This goes so far as to not only affect your interactions with people but it also affects legislation to. What really scares me is that alot of people in america are religious in their heart but don't really know a whole lot of the specifics of their own religion, just what their religious leaders tell them to. If only they could apply critical thinking to their own religion they would find no real need to impose their creed on other people or on the legislative process.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. And you know what's really funny?

when you study different faiths, you find many of them say that one of the main problems with folks is judgmentalism. This is one of the aspects of Christianity that isn't often stressed in churches. And, like you, I feel uncomfortable when people try to cram their belief system down my throat. Frankly, I think they are coming from a place of fear, and are incapable of looking objectively at another person who is different from them. Personally, it is more fun and challenging to look at another's views and appreciate them and see how all views fit into the larger scheme of things.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. There is a lot of misconception about atheists

Two of the biggest being that:

1. Atheists are all alike

2. Atheists are out to suppress believers and to actively convert them to atheism.

The first misconception happens, I think, because so few atheists actually talk about their position on religion and God(s). Their interests are elsewhere, and they are very unlikely to get into philosophical discussions face to face. So a believer who is not a deep thinker may know or even hear about one or two atheists, and think all are like them. The media doesn't help, as it is sometimes implied that amoral people are atheistic even though they don't know that ("he killed his mother and father. He didn't go to church"), though as we know, amoral people are distributed throughout the population (W being the most blatant example).

The second misconception happens most among those who would do the same to atheists, I think. It is really projection of their own impulse to require everyone to follow their particular brand of faith. And some remember the anti-Communist propaganda we were fed in the '50s, especially by right wing groups.

It would be interesting if people could simply come to R/T and browse through the posts. They would find that atheists are anything BUT all alike, are anything BUT amoral (the ones here, at least), and basically want to be able to be left alone and not be discriminated against because of their ideas.

[chicagomd]

10. It is a matter of labels

and preceptions, imo.

It is no longer socially acceptable to hate women or minorities. After all we have words for those specific bigotries: Misogynist and racist.

The difference is with atheists there is no social stigma agaist that hatred or distrust. What do you call someone who hates atheists?

[Musty]

13. A Christian!

Oh, I kill me! I'm an atheist and I thought we were all alike. Alot of people who go to church don't believe in a god; they go to church because of social pressure. I was born and raised Catholic, and the first time I attended a Protestant service(Presbyterian), it was clear to me that they did not believe in the supernatural and magic stuff that Catholics believe in. The Presbyterians seemed to be more like the followers of Ghandi, the man. They follow the teachings of Jesus, the man, not Jesus the god. There really are more atheists out here than people think there are.

[Silent3]

12. It would be interesting how the survey results would change...

...if a different word or phrased was used, like "agnostic" (many, if not most, atheists are also agnostics, and most agnostics are functionally atheistic) or "those who do not believe in God". The word "atheist" has been demonized to a great extent, and I think many people react negatively to the word itself without thinking too much about what it means.

[Realityhack]

14. the last couple of paragraphs stink. eom.

[ZombieHorde]

15. last couple of paragraphs

Dawkins cites the suicide bombers as a current example of how belief in a better life after death can encourage people to hurt themselves and others in anticipation of other-worldly glory.

I think Dawkins goes too far. After all, religion is a source of comfort and inspiration for many people. Many, if not most, atheists feel some people truly need religion to help them navigate the maze of life. And that’s OK. There has to be some middle ground between believing that religion is the root of much evil and believing only religious people can lead moral lives.

In the end, we should accept without prejudice the fact that many good and competent people find themselves unable to believe in God. This won’t happen until we realize that religion is not necessarily connected to moral or ethical behavior.

-----------

Which part offends your olfactories?

[Realityhack]

17. well...

first of it takes on a much more editiorial tone which I didn't like too much but I also didn't like this:
"many good and competent people find themselves unable to believe in God."
bad wording in my opinion. And I see no backup anywhere for his opinion that:
"Many, if not most, atheists feel..." It may be true but I do not believe it follows from the rest of the article.

Just my opinion. I definitely don't like the unable to believe part.

[ZombieHorde]

18. editiorial tone

first of it takes on a much more editiorial tone

This article did appear on the opinion page, so an editorial tone is to be expected.

"many good and competent people find themselves unable to believe in God."

I guess that it does sound like a disability. Now that you point it out, this quote makes me giggle.

"Many, if not most, atheists feel..." It may be true but I do not believe it follows from the rest of the article.

I believe that the author was trying to smooth atheist/theist relations with some of this article. If that is their goal, then I agree with it.

[Realityhack]

19. Ok.

I understand that the editorial tone was to be expected, but it was surprisingly absent/low for most of the article so I thought the last few paragraphs seemed almost out of place.
Your giggle = my comment

I think largely we agree, I just disagree with his tone a bit more.

[New Dawn]

22. Hatred of atheists is a remnant of McCarthyism

In fact, "under God" was added to the pledge of allegiance in the 1950s during the McCarthyist repression.

[Chovexani]

26. It's ridiculous bullshit typical of this ignorant country

People have some really fucked up ideas about atheists, and I don't know where they get them from other than churches. The thing is, it's so pervasive that even people who don't particularly go to church or consider themselves organized religionists will spout this shit. Honestly, I blame the media. When was the last time you saw an atheist portrayed as anything other than an angry crackpot or an emotionally screwed up malcontent?

Then again, this is the same country that won't allow marriage based on something as trivial as the genitalia of the participants. And thinks Witches really light things on fire with our minds like on Charmed or something. This is a deeply stupid country.

[MindPilot]

28. "Considering the small number of admitted atheists"

The number of non-believers in the US is around 12-15% sometimes going as high as 20% depending on whose poll you read. IIRC the number of African Americans is about 14%.

Atheists are also unique in being victims of institutionalized discrimination in that there are at least seven states' constitutions which specifically prohibit Atheists from holding public office or serving on juries.

I'm very happy that the "is America ready for a Black or Female president?" question is actually about to be answered, but us non-believers are still at the back of the bus.

[varkam]

30. I imagine that we will be for some time.

As another OP in R/T points out, Americans are dumber than a box of rocks when it comes to religion. Most Christians have never even read the entire bible, let alone think seriously about it's metaphysical and philosophical implications. I forget who said it, but in a strange twist of fate atheists seem to take religion more seriously than do it's adherents.

Until that changes, we'll always be sitting at the back of the bus when it comes to things like being able to get elected.

[Goblinmonger]

31. Just for clarity

those constitutions that prohibit atheists would be ruled unconstitutional if ever enforced. The SCOTUS has made it clear that any such test is unconstitutional.

Of course, there is a clear "unwritten" test that anyone who is an open atheist will have a hell of a time getting elected because of that fact.

[MindPilot]

36. Yes, but...

that would depend upon the enforcement being done in such a way that would be blatant enough to have a case, a victim willing to spend probably the rest of their life embroiled in a discrimination suit that will bring them death threats, lawyers willing to take the case, and boatloads of money from someplace. Add then, the fact that THIS SCOTUS has made their willingness to narrow the scope of the interpretation of the Establishment Clause very clear, and even after all that, nothing in the outcome of such a case would actually result in an amendment to that state's constitution.

The fact is that the blatant institutionalized discrimination against non-believers is accepted and encouraged. If it were not, the legislators of those states would have already amended those articles.

[struggle4progress]

32. It's hard to know what to make of "52 percent of Americans said they would not vote for &c&c"

when about 50% of Americans don't vote under any circumstances anyway

Nor is it entirely clear what the poll question is testing, since a question phrased as a negative may get a different response than a question phrased as a positive: asking "Would you vote for someone who does NOT believe X?" may not get the same response as asking "Would you vote for someone who BELIEVES Y?" -- even if those who do not believe X are more or less the same people as those who believe Y. Candidates may face a similar hurdle: faced with the demand "Describe your religious beliefs," one could answer negatively I have no such beliefs: I am an atheist or one could describe how one has tried to follow particular positive ideals; a purely negative answer probably has a purely negative effect

A related issue is psychological: seeking elective office involves pragmatic skills, which include not only the candidate's ability to make people feel comfortable but also an ability to communicate a certain practicality. For this reason, certain issues really don't belong in campaigns. A person might, for example, be open-minded about the possibility of visits from extraterrestrials or the possibility of communicating with people at great distance by pure thought and still be a competent and practical person (though, frankly, I myself have a certain prejudice against both views) -- but the candidate who blabbers about such matters will merely convince the public that s/he is a fruitcake, whether or not that is actually true. As a voter, my view is that religion doesn't belong in campaigns at all: when a candidate makes much of his/her religious beliefs, I'm disinclined to vote for him/her because s/he is not discussing the public issues that s/he should be discussing -- and for exactly the same reason I'd be disinclined to vote for a candidate who made much noise about his/her lack of religious beliefs

[varkam]

33. Well...

As a voter, my view is that religion doesn't belong in campaigns at all: when a candidate makes much of his/her religious beliefs, I'm disinclined to vote for him/her because s/he is not discussing the public issues that s/he should be discussing -- and for exactly the same reason I'd be disinclined to vote for a candidate who made much noise about his/her lack of religious beliefs

I think a majority of Americans would (unfortunately) disagree with you. Bullshit issues (and religion is one of them) like which candidate would you most like to have a beer with seem to carry the day, whilst actual issues like education, corrections, health-care, etc seem to get swept under the table. I think that that has a lot to do with what we were discussing previously - the intellectually challenged state of the electorate.

[struggle4progress]

34. It's a safe bet that anyone who thinks a candidate regards him/her as "intellectually challenged,"

won't be voting for the candidate. So anyone, who really wants to promote atheists as candidates, might consider opposing the meme: "We're too smart to believe the crap the rest of you believe"

[MindPilot]

37. The current meme of pandering to the lowest common denominator

hasn't been working so well either.

I kind of like to think the person in the leadership position is there BECAUSE they are smarter than me.

[struggle4progress]

41. Some get elected by pandering; not all do; but none get elected by offending a majority

[trotsky]

35. Just compare it to the other numbers in the survey.

The percentage of Americans who vote has nothing to do with it, really. If that were a factor, it would affect all groups equally so the survey numbers would still tell the story.

[struggle4progress]

40. If one is discussing an allegation that half of America wouldn't vote for an atheist,

it certainly does matter whether the people who say that are voting or not: if most of them wouldn't vote anyway, then the fact that they say they wouldn't vote for an atheist is just meaningless smoke-blowing; on the other hand, if most of them are voting, then you really should be wondering why people who might vote for your candidates don't show at the polls. In either case, the question Are these people voting? seems to me entirely appropriate for a political message board

Second, I'm shocked! shocked! that in the two or more years that have elapsed since the survey was first reported in the news and discussed here in R/T, you still haven't bothered to find the article and actually read it. Anyone, who doesn't have subscription access to the April 2006 issue of American Sociological Review in which Edgell-Gerteis-Hartmann's "Atheists as Other &c&c" appeared (Vol 71: pp 211-234), should be easily able to locate the same pdf copy of the proof-pages which I found earlier today. Tables in the article show in some detail that different groups have different attitudes towards atheism: women and biblical literalists are rather more likely to be hostile, for example, while Democrats are much less likely to be hostile. So your assertion it would affect all groups equally is very unlikely to be true.

<edit: more precise reference>

[trotsky]

42. You simply don't understand.

You apparently are confused by what is being referred to as "groups." There are the groups TAKING the survey, and there are the groups REFERENCED in the survey. I'm referring to one, and you're equivocating into the other. Let me know when you've figured this out.

Ah, what's the point. Some "liberal" Christians have decided atheists have it just fine, that intolerance and prejudice against them is all in our heads. Or confined to some tiny negligible minority who somehow miraculously total almost 50% on a survey.

[Marrah_G]

38. I'll have to take your word for it. I've just never seen it here in New England.

As a Pagan I am left scratching my head a bit.

I don't want to get into a who is more persecuted argument, but I've just never seen Social Services called to a house because the parents don't believe in God..........

I would never think twice about saying "I don't believe in God", however I have to be extremely careful before letting people know I worship a God with Hoofs and Horns.............

[ZombieHorde]

39. That is a tricky one.

I would never think twice about saying "I don't believe in God", however I have to be extremely careful before letting people know I worship a God with Hoofs and Horns.............

I have a nice plaque of Baphomet in my house which gets a few looks when someone new comes over.

[HumanBeast]

43. Who's A True Christian?

Love your fellow neighbor? Ha!