Was it a good plan to make Messiah/Christ of the OT the name sake of

[heidler1]

Christianity or would it have been more worthy if the followers would have used the founder, Jesus and his name in some way?

The Messiah as for told was to end up ruling the whole world with the Jews in charge, which was supposed to create peace. Sounds like a very unlikely dream to me. Christ has war like over tones.

[saltpoint]

1. The messianic figure can have the sword or the palm frond.

If we go on the theory that Jesus of Galilee existed, we do so without evidence in the way we have evidence that Dwight Eisenshower existed.

So. If we go on the theory that there really was a Jesus, then the information we have on him suggests that he was steeped in the Laws of the Old Testament. It's hard to see Jesus himself as a founder of a new religion, as he seems to be a distinct product, if a particularly advanced one, of Old Testament reference and culture and learning.

When Rome moved from republic to empire life in many of its far provinces did not improve. Palestine was at constant odds with the local Roman authorities. Jesus is presented to us as someone incredibly intelligent, poetic, and perceptive, and evidently charismatic, brave, and welcoming -- just exactly the sort of person those Roman authorities didn't like gaining traction.

[aquart]

3. When a nation was conquered, one step in the process

was for the conqueror god to knock up a local girl who then gave birth to a hero. Leda and the Swan. Europa and the Bull, Danae and the Golden Shower, and so on. In fact, if you look at local rap sheets, Zeus/Jupiter was a much more likely suspect for Mary's surprise pregnancy than Jehovah. But, as usual, they blamed the Jews.

[saltpoint]

4. Rome found it convenient to blame the Jews. Agree with you, aquart,

and love the references to the pantheon. Those were images still pervasive in large swaths of the still-ancient world.

Joseph's Coat is likely a remnant of the ancient goddess religions. We sure don't hear much about that from Pat Robertson these days, do we.

[okasha]

5. Could you amplify that last statement, Crusoe?

Thanks.

[saltpoint]

7. okasha, I am just now returning to this thread.

Sorry to be so tardy.

Here are a couple things:


1. http://gallae.com/His2.html

We Are an Old People, We Are a New People
Part Two, Transsexual Priestesses, Sexuality and the Goddess
by Cathryn Platine

excerpt:

The invasion of Canaan by the bloodthirsty, patriarchal and fanatical followers of Yahweh, the people later known as the Israelites, took place around 1000 BCE. Yahweh's worshipers insisted he was a jealous god that would have no rivals. Unable to completely conquer the Canaanites, they lived in close proximity for a while. It's no wonder that the Israelite women were drawn to Athirat, now often called Asherah, whose followers believed in equality of the sexes. It is no wonder that the sexually repressed Israelite men would also want to participate in Her rites. For a time the religions mixed enough that Yahweh and Asherah were considered co-deities. The Levite priests of Yahweh were at their wits end, since even their wives often openly worshiped Asherah. That some of their "sons" became Qedshtu, can be decoded in the story of Joseph and his "coat of many colours". It is believed that Rachel, Joseph's mother, was a priestess of Asherah and the coat came from her. We've mentioned the colourful caftans with gold and silver threads that were the marks of the Qedshtu, both transsexual and non transsexual priestesses. Small wonder that Joseph's brothers, devotees of Yahweh, would react badly to their brother becoming a woman, a hierodule priestess of Asherah, for indeed this is what the story indicates.



2. Woman’s Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets / Barbara G. Walker

excerpt:

“The Old Testament Joseph earned his oneiromantic talent by incubation in a Pit. The “brothers” who put him there seem to have been fellow priests. He could interpret Pharoah’s dreams only after he had submitted to the ritual. Assyrian priests derived similar powers from a sojourn in the Pit. They then assumed the priestly coat of many colors, signifying communion with the Goddess under her oneiromantic name Nanshe, “Interpreter of Dreams.” It seems likely that Joseph’s coat of many colors would have been given him originally not before the initiation but afterward, by a “father” who was actually the high priest.


Another couple of outstanding books on the ancient goddess religions is:

Riane Eisler's THE CHALICE AND THE BLADE and
Nor Hall's THE MOON AND THE VIRGIN

[aquart]

9. You want a remnant? Have a hamentashen.

And think upon that little black triangle.

On edit: but my favorite is the mysterious "milk pail" in early Christian art. Astarte is typically depicted in art as offering her breasts. If you look at her name as an Egyptian pun rather a Syrian (Assyrian?)word (and realize that scribes back then used cross-language words and puns enough to drive translators insane, you might notice it could derive from Ast (seat, place, Isis) Artet (milk) Art (to flow). Place of milk. Milk pail.

[wpelb]

2. Meaning of Christ

"Christ" (Greek) or "Messiah" (Hebrew) means "anointed." At least in Old Testament thought, the Anointed One (Messiah/Christ) would be a political leader, as suggested in heidler's post.

The first followers of Jesus called their movement "The Way," or something equally innocuous. Their opponents called them "Christians," meaning that the label was originally one of derision or contempt. As time went on, however, the followers (and their followers) took the name as a badge of honor, and thus the religion got the name it has now.

[heidler1]

6. IMO The greatest justification for accepting Christianity is Peace promoting ways of Jesus,

but the Messiah thing with it's promise of ruling the world seems to have taken over the political goals of the U.S. by using the Christian voting power to over influence the Government plus a President who's willing to play along for the voting support he gets for doing it. The GOP is in lock step.

First off I doubt that we can take over the world and it would not lead to peace either. To believe this is what some God wants is foolishly unworkable. The way the four Gospels tell it, Jesus tried to play the Messiah part to a tee. The way that the Jews tell it, Jesus did not live up to the for told Messiah prediction.

To me, too many people got suckered into believing that war solves problems.
Even WW2 required many follow up actions that were put in place to prevent the need for war. Who hates the UN to this day because they won't do exactly what some people want.

[pingzing58]

13. Nazoreans came before Christians or anointed ones.

[Meshuga]

8. The idea of messiah in Judaism

was supposed to save the Jews from oppressors and not put the Jews in charge of world domination. At least I hope the OP is not suggesting that. He was supposed to solve problems for the Jews in desperate times. Christianity transformed the idea to a universal messiah who would save all of humanity.

The messianic idea also changed withing Judaism where liberal movements reject a personal messiah and the more orthodox sects see the messiah as a victorious leader who will bring peace and not a single nation will consider waging war and no nation will rule over any other. He would bring a world where there will be no racism or other forms of oppression, ever again. Which, like you said, sounds like a very unlikely dream.

But it is not a Jewish domination scheme.

[heidler1]

10. I'm more interested in how this Messiah thing effects current Christians, however:

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah
This is where my view of Messiah came from. There are many other ways to look at what it means, but what worries me is the way this idea of a crusade like war to stop terrorizm/Muslim at all costs even if it bankrupts our country or causes another world war. See bold text below.

View in Judaism
Main article: Jewish Messiah

In The Tanakh
The concept of the messiah is neither common nor unified in the Tanakh. The term is used in the Hebrew Bible to describe Israelite priests, prophets, and kings who were anointed with oil in consecration to their respective offices. For example, Cyrus the Great, the king of Persia, is referred to as "God's anointed" (Messiah) in the Bible.

The Tanakh contains a number (the number is debated) of prophecies concerning a future descendant of King David who will be anointed as the Jewish people's new leader (moshiach).

Christians believe that Daniel was a prophet and gave an indication of when the Messiah, the prince “mashiyach nagiyd,” would come.(Daniel 9:25-26) Daniel's prophecies refer to him as a descendant of King David who will rebuild the nation of Israel, destroy the wicked, and ultimately judge the whole world. Jews hold that the mashiach nagid mentioned in Daniel was Cyrus, king of Persia.

This subject is covered in more detail in the article on Jewish eschatology.

The Hebrew word for messiah translates to "anointed". <3> Thus, to reformed Jews there have been many messiahs — all the anointed kings and priests including David, Solomon and Aaron. When speaking of the Messiah of the future, modern Jews speak of two potential messiahs. Moshiach ben Yossef (Messiah son of Joseph) and Moshiach ben David (Messiah son of David)<4> The Hebrew ben can mean either son or descendant. In this sense it can also mean "in the manner of," i.e., there will be a "suffering servant" messiah in the manner of Joseph son of Israel/Jacob and a different messiah in the manner of King David.

A common modern rabbinic interpretation is that there is a potential messiah in every generation. The Talmud which often uses stories to make a moral point (aggadah) tells the tale of a highly respected rabbi who found the Messiah at the gates of Rome and asked him "When will you finally come?" He was quite surprised when he was told, "Today." Overjoyed and full of anticipation, the man waited all day. The next day he returned, disappointed and puzzled, and asked, "You said messiah would come 'today' but he didn't come! What happened?" The Messiah replied, "Scripture says, 'Today, if you will but hearken to His voice.' " (Psalm 95:7)

Orthodox Judaism believes in a unique future physical messiah who will usher in the messianic age of war before peace to the world.

Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism teach both the belief in a messiah or messiahs, or that there will be a time of peace, etc., but that it will be the result of tikkun olam ("repair of the world") through human efforts toward social justice, not the actions of one man.

"Choice is the underlying reason the Reform Movement gave up the need for and belief in a single messiah who would one day bring judgment, and perhaps salvation, to the world. The fact that God imbues us with free choice mitigates the need for a messianic figure."<5>

[Meshuga]

11. I understand your concern

Which I share with you. Especially of some small groups of haredim who promote violence for the sake of religious ideology. It is scary and it is a problem.

But my other concern is with language such as "the Jews in charge" of the world. :scared: I know you mean nothing by it but someone could get the wrong idea given the way such phrase is used by some groups. :-)

A belief and the idea of a personal messiah bringing about peace does not mean that other nations would have to submit to Jewish law/Judaism or that Jews want to run the world.

Jewish eschatology has changed and evolved based on so many influences experienced by Jewish communities living under Christian, Islamic, and Zoroastrian rule, by the haskalah, etc. So the nature of a "messianic age" varies but while one group believes in a personal messiah and a different group rejects the idea, there is always the same drive to achieve this "messianic era" which is supposed to bring peace to the world. The catch is that it can only be brought about with deeds.

[heidler1]

12. I admire the Jews, they had the good judgment to not support Bush 2 both times

They appear to be more accepting of the need for the wealthy to pay a higher tax rate than the poor with out crabbing about it, and they tend to be among the wealthy. They believe in higher education and tend toward charity for the unfortunate. At the same time I believe they are tweaking our countries best interest a bit too much in the Mid-East which causes hate of the US in the Muslim world. I suspect that both current wars were partly caused by our politicians kissing up to Israel.

[sakabatou]

14. Well.. most anyway.