Catholics Dig Up Dead To Staunch Attendance Losses

[DeSwiss]

Popular Italian Catholic saint exhumed 40 years on

Reuters
By Philip Pullella
Mon Mar 3, 4:16 PM ET

ROME (Reuters) - The body of the mystic monk Padre Pio, one of the Roman Catholic world's most revered saints who died 40 years ago, has been exhumed to be prepared for display to his many devotees. The body of the Capuchin friar, who was said to have had the stigmata -- the wounds of Christ's crucifixion -- on his hands and feet -- is to be conserved and put in a part-glass coffin for at least several months from April 24.

A Church statement said the body was in "fair condition," particularly the hands, which Archbishop Domenico D'Ambrosio, who witnessed the exhumation in the southern Italian town where Pio died, said "looked like they had just undergone a manicure." A spokesman for the monastery at San Giovanni Rotondo said he believed morticians would be able to conserve the face of the bearded monk well enough for it to be recognizable. The body, which had been buried under marble in a crypt, was exhumed during a three-hour service that ended after midnight.

A Catholic magazine once found that far more Italian Catholics prayed to Padre Pio than to any other icon of the faith, including the Virgin Mary or Jesus. Some 7 million people visit his tomb every year. There are some 3,000 "Padre Pio Prayer Groups" around the world, with a membership of around 3 million.The friar, born Francesco Forgione, died in 1968 aged 81. Among the stories that surround him is one that he wrestled with the devil in his monastery cell. Padre Pio is also said to have predicted future events, to have been seen in two places at once, and to have been able to tell people their sins before they confessed them to him.

Pope John Paul II made him a saint in 2002 at a ceremony that drew one of the biggest crowds ever to the Vatican after the Church said it had found evidence that the miraculous cure of a sick woman was due to the dead monk's intercession. But Padre Pio was dogged during his life and even after his death by accusations that he was a fraud. A new book last year suggested he was a self-harming man who may have used carbolic acid to create wounds in his hands mimicking those of Christ when he was nailed to the cross.

Church officials have repeatedly denied that he was a fake.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080303/od_nm/italy_saint_dc">LINK

- Well, it looks like the Catholics are reaching for their "A" material now. Survey after survey shows that they're losing their flocks to all those "off-the-shelf" religions, or worse, "the unaffiliated." But people are finally being repulsed by their pedophillac, Mobbed-up or embezzler priests, so they've been forced to go into their "Amageddon Bag 'O Tricks," where they seek to entertain, mesmerize and/or frighten people back into the fold.

These are some really, really sick people.....
========================================================================
DeSwiss

[Manifestor_of_Light]

1. The word is "stanch", not "staunch".

Other than that minor correction, I agree with you.

They're taking after the politicians (Like Lyndon Johnson) who get dead people to vote!!

[DeSwiss]

3. Maybe that's the "new" way to spell it....

....but I'm old school. And that's the way the Marm taught us to spell it in the one-room log cabin school house...

Staunch:

Verb 1. staunch - stop the flow of a liquid; "staunch the blood flow"; "stem the tide" stanch, stem, halt

check - arrest the motion (of something) abruptly; "He checked the flow of water by shutting off the main valve"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/staunch
========================================================================
DeSwiss

[Historic NY]

2. The Republicans have been trying to dig up Ronnie.....

for some time.

[DeSwiss]

4. I know, I know....

- He actually looks a lot better these days....

[Demeter]

5. When All You Have Are Lemons----

When all you have are dead saints---

truly a flawed solution to the problem.

Of course, growing some new saints is very difficult when you are mired in the criminality of the leadership.

[DeSwiss]

30. Growing some new saints is very difficult when you are mired in the criminality...

...ain't it the truth!

Of course they could take lessons from the Bush Administration on that. And that fact is in and of itself mind-boggling, that Bush could teach anyone... anything.

[Demeter]

31. You Mean Fraud?

Yes, Bush is the FraudMaster. But the Popes were first. I doubt the Vatican needs any lessons in fraudulence.

[eilen]

6. I know a lady in my community

that was helped by Padre Pio, actually, her husband was. A lady who had use or possession for a short time of his glove, brought it to her and a scent of roses was noticed and it became very strong. Her husband was suffering with cancer and the glove helped him.
A heads up to the mods, I have permssion from the auther (see the footer at the end) to use this in its entirety.


Our Christmas Miracle

Christmas 2000

Let me tell you about the snowy Christmas Day that we were blessed by a healing visit from a true Christmas Angel and the miracle that she blessed us with. We now know that miracles do happen and that if you are open to receiving, they can come at any time! I give you a little background, so you can understand the blessing we received that day! Dave was recently diagnosed with Stage 4 lung and bone cancer. Radiation 5 days a week and once a week Chemotherapy treatments had been leaving him quite drained.

The Doctors have not been able to tell Dave how much time he had left, so we are looking at an optimistic ten year plan, yet at the same time taking care of his affairs. Many people have been offering us their healing advice. We have gotten suggestions ranging from jumping up and down on a trampoline to this very healing Essiac Tea! Because the cancer in the spinal column has deteriorated Dave’s top three discs, we have decided not to go the trampoline route! Due to a near-death experience a number of years ago, Dave has a good connection to Spirit and has been able to sift through all the well meaning suggestions and take what works best for his healing.

Now back to the story. Because both radiation and chemotherapy treatments deplete the white blood cells that help fight infection, if Dave gets sick, he wouldn’t have the ability to fight off the infection. It would be silly to die of pneumonia while healing his cancer! We all know that not only is Christmas a time of sharing love, it is also known as a time of sharing germs (especially from the wonderfully loving children in the family). Now don’t get me wrong, I love the little ones, yet we decided that Christmas with the family was not in our best interest this year. I knew that I probably could of gone myself, but I really didn’t want to leave Dave alone for Christmas Day. As the 6 hour round trip and few hour visit would take most the day, I made plans to go down the day after Christmas. Most of the family would still be there, but all the extra visitors would not. This was the first Christmas in my 39 years that I had missed!

Now family guilt, self inflicted or not, is one of the worst types. I called a number of times through the day and with all the "We miss you!" and "We are running behind schedule, you always keep us on track!", the guilt kept piling on! About 5pm, Christmas night, the phone rang. Now, I get a lot of clients calling for appointments, so on days I am not working, I usually screen my calls. For some unknown reason, this time I just automatically picked up the phone.

"Hi Cindy" said the unidentified voice. As she kept talking I recognized the English accent as this very sweet massage therapist that specializes in Tai Massage. "Have you ever heard of Padre Pio?" I told her that I had visited Padre Pio’s when I made a trip to Italy. I knew that Padre Pio was born in the late 1800's and was the only 20th century person that had received the stigmata, the wounds that Christ had experience on the cross. He lived until the 1960's. Padre Pio was known for his compassion and healing works. He also was known to bi-locate (be in two places at once). It is documented where during the second world war, the air force was going to accidentally bomb an area that was occupied by allies. The fighter pilots reported a monk appearing in the air, in front of the plane, motioning for them to go back. They were so scared that they did go back and the disaster was averted! She then asked me if I had heard about the healing miracles that happened around a glove of Padre Pio’s. This I was unaware of. She offered to put another woman on the phone to tell me about it.

The woman had a very sweet and calming voice. It turns out that she is a local television personality, known for her beauty inside and out. She started to tell me about Padre Pio’s glove. It seems when the priest that used to be a custodian of Padre Pio in Italy returned to his parish in Brooklyn, New York, he was given two of the gloves that Padre Pio had worn to keep the blood from the Stigmata wounds from dripping on the floor. These gloves were considered a sacred object and known to have healing properties. There were multiple stories of how the glove had healed the parishioners of this Brooklyn church. One thing that helps support this claim is the uncanny and beautiful rose scent that emanates from the glove. It grows stronger and weaker, yet is always present.

She continued to tell me that the Priest kept one glove for himself and gave one to his sister. The sister felt that it really should be available for all to benefit from. She figured that the parking lot attendant knew everyone from the parish, so he would be the best guardian for the glove. The glove shares a box with a sheet that came from Padre Pio’s bed, a book that people write to Padre Pio in and one of those famous double image pictures of Padre Pio that changes as you tilt the picture from side to side! The Parking attendant’s little booth used to be a shrine to Frank Sinatra, but now Frank shares his glory with Padre Pio! The Attendant gives the Box full of healing goodies to who ever needs it. There is a waiting list which the woman on the other end of the phone had some how gotten on and so now, on Christmas eve, she had received the glove for two whole days! Our English friend had told her about Dave’s cancer and she had called to see if Dave would like to touch the miraculous glove.

Well, Dave was tired from a visit earlier in the day and when I mentioned that, the woman kindly offered to come to us. Now, for those of you that don’t know where we live, it is known as Windy Hill! Our place used to be a cross country ski resort on top of a high hill that is often buffeted with lake effect snow. We were currently getting hit with a snow storm. The land lord was out of town so the drive hadn’t been plowed. She still was willing to make the trip! We gave her directions and, an hour and a half later, via cell phone, we guided her into our hard to find driveway!

The stranger arrived, covered with snow and bearing a canvas tote. We sat in our living room and she pulled out a wooden box with a little picture of Padre Pio on the top. She gently opened it and took out the picture, a little book and then gently brought out the glove. At first I was surprised. It was a little tiny brown glove with no fingers in it. It looked like a glove you would see on a homeless person. The funny thing to me was that it was so simple. You would think it would be ornate or at least a little bigger! Padre Pio was a large man. I remembered seeing his slippers when saw I his monk cell in Italy. They were so big!

The little brown glove had a simple metal cross gently sown onto the top side. Later, when I turned it over, I saw that someone had sown a tiny piece of cloth with a little" x" in the place that must of been where the hand wound from the stigmata was. The amazing thing to us was the aroma that came from it. Anyone that smelled this rose scent could tell you that it’s like no other rose smell you had ever smelled. You couldn’t recreate it even with the best of oils or perfume. The sheet from his bed also had that scent. The sheet was in a little plastic bag, but the glove was naked except for the cross sown to it.

Dave put the glove in his hand and you could just feel the calm that came over him. This is how he explained it to me. "At first, I just sensed a type of love similar to what I feel when I touch my near death. When I touched the glove I was feeling with my heart and not my mind. I could feel my heart opening up and feeling that light and love. I could feel both Spirit and human emotion because it was vast amounts of unconditional love. It is like going back into the light a little bit, not all the way. In order to experience the near death you have to accept that light back. And I have been having trouble keeping my heart open and working with my light and love because of the physical fatigue and drug induced emotions. But as I stroked the glove it felt like the some of the barriers were just melting away and the light in my heart was just able to open and shine as bright as ever. Well, I could just say that my spirit was singing. Spirit gets in this joyous frame of (not mind but) Spirit. When Spirit is joyous, it feels like a song in your heart, and it interacts with your human emotions. It just brings tears to the corners of the eyes. It gets you a little choked up. You can feel it emanate through out your whole body. It isn’t just your heart that expands, it expands through out your entire body physically."

As our new friend told Dave the glove’s story and how she ended up with it, he sat and stroked the sacred glove as it lay in his right hand. Later he told me he could actually feel the glove, which is it’s own little miracle as he has permanent nerve damage in that hand and hasn’t felt any sensation with it for over six months! She had told of how Padre Pio was able to bring his compassion and insight into the confessional and would help people to know what it is that they really want to release. Later Dave told me, "A funny thing was that it was almost like I was giving a little confession, when I was talking to her, about my near death, cancer and what it all was like. She had told us about when he would give confessionals from his heart. I felt compelled to talk about the near death, to give confession of it. I didn’t realize it till later."

He handed me the glove and I could immediately feel the energy coming from the center of it. I felt calm and at peace. I knew this was real. I handed it back to Dave and then took the piece of sheet in the little bag. Again, I was taken back by the undescribably intense rose scent growing in the room as she and Dave talked about everything from how his near death experience is helping him deal with a terminal disease to the wonderful experiences she has had while the glove has been with her. She said she felt like a Christmas Angel. We told her that she is definitely our Christmas Angel! The rose scent kept growing stronger and stronger and was starting to fill the room. It was accompanied by a pervading sense of peace and love.

At one point our Christmas Angel stopped the conversation and said, "I have had this glove for two days and the rose scent has grown stronger and weaker depending on who was holding it, but I have never smelled it this strong!" She was amazed. The smell had filled the whole room by now and so had the sense of peace and love!

Together we shared stories, feelings, hot tea and ginger bread cookies as if we were old friends. An hour and half later, our Christmas Angel was calling the next person she was going to share the glove with to let them know she was on her way! We wondered if she had been able to spend any holiday time with her family, and with the number of people she had visited, we doubted she had.

The miracle continues. After she was well on her way to share the healing glove with the next blessed person, we could still smell the rose and feel the peace and love

Dave told me that when we went to bed that he could still smell the roses. I told him that I couldn’t smell them, yet when I reached over to touch his hand, the minute I made contact, I could smell the roses too! I slept through the rest of the miracle, here is how Dave explained it to me the next day. "I could smell the roses as we went to bed. It just made me go into a really nice calm peaceful sleep. It helped my body to relax and drift off to sleep which is a lot closer to normal than in a long time. I don’t just drop off to sleep that easily lately. I used to be able to just go to sleep right away, now I have to sit. That night I went right to sleep and it reminded me of when we used to do a nice pipe ceremony. (A Native American tradition of giving thanks and offering prayer) It was very comforting. The smell of the roses and the glove just comforted me. I was able to get a restful sleep."

He continued, "At two o’clock I awoke and the smell of roses was just like it was every where. I just started to cry. I could feel my heart fully open and I could feel my light and my spirit shining as bright as in my near death. So, I got up and meditated and just enjoyed taking that energy in. It has helped me since to keep my heart more open when I am feeling the physical and drug related difficulties that are associated with the therapies that I am on. That is how it is helping me now."

As we talked about our Christmas miracle, we realized that part of the miracle was that I was even home to get the call! If I had followed my guilt (Dave was feeling a little guilty too) and went to my family’s on Christmas Day after all, we would of missed the phone call and our Christmas miracle all together! As it was, I went down the day after Christmas and had a wonderful visit with my family and two friends! The kids were downstairs for most of the visit (thank you Kay and Gigi) and Dave got to have some quiet time alone to take in all the love, peace and light offered from the previous day!

We also talked about our Christmas miracle acting as a sign to let us know we are right where we need to be. We feel that Dave’s cancer has brought about a situation that is allowing us to come back to our spiritual center. We are allowing ourselves to enjoy every day, communicate our love more frequently and sincerely and to accept all the gifts from not only God but also all of our friends and family. We are adjusting our priorities and are hopeful that Dave will receive the gift of full remission. We recognize our Christmas miracle as a sign that miracles do happen and that people like our Christmas Angel are around to bring miracles to us and everyone else on a daily basis. We are reminded that Angels don’t always have wings, sometimes they appear in a snow covered coat and scarf!

Epilogue:

The next day I was telling one of my clients about our Christmas miracle. She was instantly reminded that someone had given her a medallion of Padre Pio’s about three months ago for her daughter who has neurological impairments. She said that she had been carrying this medallion around in her purse and never thought to have her daughter hold it like Dave held the glove. She asked me to hold on while she went and got the medallion. She hadn’t taken it out of the box. I felt like I was getting to experience the blessing of last night over again! She came back to the phone and sounded like she was in shock. She had opened the case and what she smelt ran shivers up and down both our spine. Roses, she smelt roses. Her daughter was being fussy in the background and my client decided to put the medallion in her daughter’s hand. Instantly the girl calmed down and started her version of talking. My client and I sat, in two different states, in silence. I felt like the Christmas miracle was being passed on. My client said to me that she had realized, as she was getting the medallion out of her purse, that it must go back to the woman who originally gave the medallion to her. It turns out that the woman had been diagnosed with cancer. My client realized that the medallion didn’t need to be hoarded, it needed to be shared. She was going to return the medallion in the next few days. The miracle was being passed on. My client was truly demonstrating the true spirit of Christmas.

A second part two:
As of April of last year,2001 ( Dave was diagnosed November 27,2000) Dave is in remission. What the nurse had told us seemed to be a shrinkage of the Tumor was really full remission!! The Doctors didn’t believe it, so they waited until July to make it official! As of January 2003, he is still in remission! We feel very blessed by God and Padre Pio and were excited to hear that in June 2002, Padre Pio was canonized by the Catholic Church as a Saint! It is now Christmas Season 2003 and Dave is still in remission!



You have permission to reprint what you have just read. Use it in your ezine, at your website or in your newsletter. The only requirement is including the following footer with links...
Article by Cindy Griffith visit www.psychicsupport.com for more original content like this. Reprint permission granted with this footer included.
Copyright © 1999 . All rights reserved.
Revised: December 17, 2003 .

[DeSwiss]

26. I have little doubt that true believers of religion....

....will very often attribute to divine intervention those things which defy explanation. According to your post, the gentleman in question was also under a doctor's care and receiving cancer treatment at the time of his remission. No matter how hopeless the doctor's may have believed the case to be. But this fact seems to have gotten lost as a possible variable for the remission of his tumor.

And then there's what's called "spontaneous remission." Doctor's don't even like to discuss this because they can't explain it. But it happens. Even to non-believers. And given that a cancerous tumor is in fact one's own cells gone berserk, it stands to reason that the same system which causes cancer, can "un-cause" it as well. Science simply hasn't figured it out yet.

Why does it happen? How does it happen? No one knows that answer. But to lay such a remission at the feet of religion as its trophy, is what it has relied upon people doing from its very existence. From its earliest beginnings religion was the elixir, the potion that calmed the fears. It started out telling everyone that the calamities in life were the work of bored gods who delighted in causing humans misery. So we sacrificed things to them that were valuable and precious to us, like children, virgins, goats and lambs. We carried totems and beads, crosses and such. Pieces of the wood from the cross, pieces of cloth from the burial shroud. And bones. Bones and bones and more bones. And whole bodies of the "saints." We really haven’t changed all that much from prehistoric times when you really think about it.

Religion has always claimed the role and the right to provided answers to people who had none -- or who had the "wrong answers." But as science began discovering that what was thought to be "god's will" wasn't, religion then tried to co-opt science and make it say what they wanted it to say. And when that didn't work, they sought to control or dismiss its message and findings. And this they still do.

In the end, I'm reminded of a verse from Luke in which Jesus is purported to have said: "Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God."

Maybe they should leave the dead buried and try some of that preaching about love and compassion they're supposed to be so big on.......

For a start - FYI:

Spontaneous remission of anti-Ma associated paraneoplastic ...
spontaneous tumor remission, par-. ticularly since paraneoplastic anti-. bodies are
known to bind to tumor. cells. Moreover, patients with histo- ...
http://www.springerlink.com/index/739144qw8p8l2l34.pdf

Spontaneous Remissions
A spontaneous remission is the disappearance of cancer without any immediate
.... The patient's tumor went into permanent remission within a few weeks. ...
http://chetday.com/spontaneousremissions.htm - Cached

Repression of the enzyme lactate dehydrogenase and the spontaneous ...
and the remission of cancer. Cancer Biotherapy &. Radiopharmaceuticals 1999;
14(4): 297–298. 6. Niakan B. Steady tumor growth and the spontaneous ...
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0306987700912271

IONS - Research: Spontaneous Remission - Frequently Asked Questions
The term "spontaneous" as it relates to remission or regression is used when a
patient shows a significantly measurable reduction in tumor size, ...
http://www.noetic.org/research/sr/faqs.html - Cached

Remission of Cancer
In medical terminology, spontaneous remission of cancer refers to ... How rare
are spontaneous remissions when defined as tumor regression without ...
http://www.majidali.com/remissio.htm - Cached

Case report
In our group, one case had the spontaneous. tumor remission after her delivery
and the other were. passing through the menopause. Thus, we infer that the ...
http://www.cmj.org/Periodical/PdfList.asp?id=LW20071120524432905294 - Cached

Spontaneous Remission of Metastases of Cancer of the Uterine Cervix
Spontaneous remission (SR) is the complete or incomplete .... remission of tumor
activity. Recalcification of the bone metastases was ...
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowPDF&ProduktNr=0&Ausgabe=23177...

A New Hypothesis on Spontaneous Remission of Cancer - Second Opinions
In medical terminology, spontaneous remission of cancer refers to the ....
He developed severe anorexia, vomiting and a high fever and his tumor began to ...
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/thuo-hypothesis.html - Cached

Search For Spontaneous Remission References And Cancer
Hercbergs A; Spontaneous remission of cancer--a thyroid hormone dependent .....
Tumor tissue samples collected at onset and also at relapse for the same ...
http://www.karlloren.com/biopsy/p36.htm - Cached

Paraneoplastic Disorders of the Central Nervous System
... these patients developed PCD while undergoing cancer therapy or during tumor
remission. ... and none of the patients had spontaneous tumor regression. ...
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/497403_4
========================================================================
DeSwiss

- And welcome to DU!!!

[Gman]

7. Why must you thoroughly insult the Catholics here at DU

with your own personal rant in a manner that means you really don't give a damn what anyone else thinks except you? And you say the most hateful thing you can think of at the time.

You posted this in Religion/Theology on purpose for maximum effect. Why must you do this? What drives you to post crap like this about something that is important to a great many people? Why didn't you just post in GD or LBN then add your hateful comments? What's wrong with you? You sound more like John Hagee than anything else.

[DeSwiss]

8. I'll share a little known secret with you....

...the little "people button" with the red "X" -- its called IGNORE. Feel free to use it.

- I know I am.....

[Gman]

9. Why won't you answer my question?

Why is it easier to click "ignore" than to answer? You thought you were big enough to post this, but then you hide?

[Goblinmonger]

10. If this had not been posted here

but elsewhere on DU, I 100% guarantee you it would have ended up here. OK, maybe not if it were in the Atheist group as the only exception.

So, just so I get this straight, the Catholic Church is not to be criticized on DU. What other religions are off limits. Obviously Mormans and Scientologists and Right Wing Fundamentalist Christians are OK. So who else can we talk about or is it just the holy trinity listed above.

OOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRR, how about you get off your high horse and realize that if an organization does something fucking idiotic, those that point out the idiocy aren't the idiots.

[Gman]

11. You're another rude SOB that wondered in here

aren't you?

[Goblinmonger]

12. Wondered in here?

Whatever. Been in R/T for quite a while and don't really remember you, so you may want to think about that Hector Projector.

Rude? Pot, meet kettle.

Would Jesus call me a "rude SOB" or would he agree that propping up a rotting corpse is a LITTLE over the top for a religion in his name? If he ever existed, of course.

[beam me up scottie]

14. Hello Fellow Asshole.

Has The Posse changed the secret handshake since I left or am I still in the loop? :D


ps: missed ya! :hug:

[Goblinmonger]

16. You are still in the loop

It has been kind of a down cycle lately, but it looks like the influx of whiners is on the rise again.

[Gman]

19. I think Jesus would agree on the "rude SOB"

yes, He definitely would agree.

[Goblinmonger]

20. You are missing a couple things.

1. You have not addressed the fact that DU rules demand this OP be in R/T.
2. Which religions, in addition to Mormanism, Scientology, and RW Fundies can be criticized in here? Or are you saying that this can only be an echo chamber--since you are such a long-standing member of R/T and would be intimately in tune with what this should be.

[Book Lover]

21. Amazing how Jesus would say exactly what is useful to you

on edit: I haven't seen you in the Catholic group either. Do you know about it?

[Goblinmonger]

18. Though this is looking like a hit and run posting,

assuming you haven't run away with your tail between your legs, I wonder why you did not address the DU rules that say this HAS to be posted in R/T? Or do you just chastise others for not answering your questions but you are free to do as you choose?

[beam me up scottie]

13. Sorry to ruin your own personal rant, but there is nothing wrong with DeSwiss.

His posts are far from hateful. In fact, they're anything but; he is one of the most upbeat people here.

You do realize that threads about religion are SUPPOSED to be posted in this forum, right?

And that by posting it here, he not only abides by DU policy, he also pisses off far fewer people than if he had done it in GD.

Imho, both here and in the "real" world, the worst criticisms of church hierarchy come from catholics who wish they could stay with their church but want the criminals deposed. Many of my catholic friends refuse to support Vatican policies.

If you really want to address insults to catholics, I suggest you aim at the Palace instead of DeSwiss, 'cuz those guys are the real experts when it comes to playing lay catholics for fools.

And before you ask, yeah, I'm another rude asshole, but I didn't just wander in here. Hell, I could find this place blindfolded, all I have to do is follow the sound of whining. ;)

[Goblinmonger]

15. ....

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

17. !

[knitter4democracy]

22. How is this anything new?

We have saints' relics under every altar in the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches. If the RCC says miracles happened after people prayed and asked for his help (and the RCC is quite strict about their definition of that, actually), then why not stick to tradition and revere the saint?

Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it's a bad or weird thing. It sounds like the Vatican is finally listening to the people about this guy, which is usually how a saint gets beatified anyway.

[moggie]

25. Revering is one thing

I'd have thought it perfectly possible to revere someone without digging up their corpse and waving it around, but then I have an imagination.

As for beatification and canonization, JP2 streamlined the process considerably: for example, he abolished the position of "devil's advocate", whose job was to look for contrary evidence. As a result, more people were beatified under his watch than the total under all popes since the 16th century, and canonizations were hugely increased. I don't think Ratzi has done anything to reverse this: it's good for business.

[knitter4democracy]

32. It still takes years, though.

As for the digging up thing, that's tradition. Saints weren't buried under altars at their deaths very often, traditionally. They were buried normally at first. After miracles started to happen, then they were dug up and re-interred (usually after processions or whatever) in a church. Often, parts were taken for other churches' altars, even. It's a weird practice in today's culture, but the church is two thousand years old and has a lot of traditions from before modern times.

[DeSwiss]

27. Saints' relics under altars....

...is one thing. Digging them out of their burial chambers for public display I think is crass and about as low as one can go.

I also find it ironic that those who have appointed themselves as the defenders of life to the point of injecting themselves into the secular debate over stem cells, seem to have no problem with such ghoulish behavior in order to try and raise their popularity among their followers. The man died in his 80s, and I would think he's due for rest. I suppose if they had the body of Jesus they'd cart him out each Christmas and Easter as well. Maybe he could do groups and conventions.

But you're right about one thing, it doesn't make sense to me and I do think its both bad and weird that people find it ho-hum to go around digging up bodies to make a point. Back by popular demand, indeed.

- But I'm entitled to my opinion, as you are entitled to yours. And in my opinion, this stinks.....

on edit: spelling

[knitter4democracy]

33. It's not back, though. My point is that they've never stopped.

The process is old but pretty much unchanged. A good Christian lives and dies and is buried like normal. People who knew that person to be a good Christian pray and ask that person, now in Heaven (according to our belief), for help with something. If miracles start happening, more and more people ask that person for help. Eventually, the Vatican adds that person to their list of saints to investigate. Eventually, they get to that person on the list and send out investigators to see if the miracles are real. They have a strict definition of that (like healing doesn't count if the medical treatment you receive could've done it on it's own--so curing your cancer if you're getting chemo doesn't count), and it takes years to do the research. Once they have enough of a case, then they start beatification and eventually canonization proceedings. Part of that is digging the person up, since tradition says that saints don't decompose like others do.

It may seem odd or weird or gross in today's society with today's conceptions of death and dying, but the Church is 2000 years old and has traditions from long before modern times. They're just following tradition for them.

[beam me up scottie]

23. So what would this guy look like now?

Not to be macabre or anything but wouldn't he still smell kinda funky?

[DeSwiss]

28. Hmmm....

...well, I know that when a hospital gives out reports of someone being in "fair condition" (as they've referred to his body's condition here), that usually means that they're out of danger of dying and on the mend. Obviously that's not the same thing here.

But at least we do know that he was well groomed when he died and his manicure has held up over time. Which I understand Yahweh will be checking for on Judgment Day.

- So a word to the wise.....

[pingzing58]

24. Having a saint under the altar in your Church was popular in medieval Italy good for the economy.

Saint's bodies would be stolen to put under their altars to make their city visited by pilgrims. Like the Cathedral of Cologne Germany who has the heads of the Three Kings (wise men from the bible mentioned in the gospel of Luke). I don't know whose heads they are but they are not the heads of the biblical wise men.

[DeSwiss]

29. You make a key point....

From the article:

"Some 7 million people visit his tomb every year. There are some 3,000 "Padre Pio Prayer Groups" around the world, with a membership of around 3 million.

So apparently the "economic" impact 'ol Padre Pio can make is not lost on the Vatican.

- And they're bringing back exorcisms too. Now that's a REAL money-maker....