Suppose that we're heading into an era of nuclear war AND nuclear terrorism.

[Boojatta]

If nuclear physics could not have been developed without algebra, then would Islam be partly responsible for these hypothetical horrors to come?

[moggie]

1. Suppose that one can't develop nuclear weapons if one is illiterate

Then would Sesame Street be partly responsible for nuclear war?

[Boojatta]

2. Are you suggesting that the explanatory link from algebra to Islam is no stronger

than the explanatory link from literacy to Sesame Street?

Of course, there were literate people making weapons for governments long before there was TV. It's not hard to imagine a government acquiring very dangerous weapons while using threats and force to try to lower the literacy rate of its citizens.

[moggie]

5. No, I'm just reminding you that Bert is evil

[Meshuga]

3. Perhaps algebra is the root of all evil. n/t

[Boojatta]

6. I don't think that algebra is the root of any evils.

However, knowledge of algebra might empower some people who would otherwise be less dangerous.

[Meshuga]

7. How can you blame Islam if Algebra is not part of the tenets of Islam?

Islam doesn't teach Algebra as part of religious teaching. At least not as far as I know.

[Boojatta]

9. I think that I can link to threads right here in Religion/Theology on DU...

that argue that Islam deserves credit for the existence of algebra. I presume that this is based the following assumptions:

1. Islam is to some extent responsible for the existence of algebra as we know it today or for the fact that people know algebra; and
2. Algebra is beneficial.

Of course, algebra is a tool. Whether or not its overall effect is going to prove to be beneficial depends on how it is used. If (and it is just a hypothetical) people in future conclude that human knowledge of algebra has been more harmful than beneficial, then some people might try to show that Islam is not responsible for the existence of algebra or that Islam is not responsible for the fact that people know algebra. However, if they are simply trying to find a pretext to either give credit to Islam or to avoid giving blame to Islam, then they are not seeking the truth.

[Meshuga]

10. Algebra is not part of Islam

Algebra is a branch of mathematics. And if this branch of mathematics came about as a contribution from some medieval muslims then I say good for them. But it cannot be attributed to Islam or be considered as part of Islam.

Regardless, you seem to be trying to add moral responsibility to Algebra (and stretching it to nuclear weapons) creating a pointless thread with a "should relatives of airplane crash victims file a lawsuit against the Wright Brothers estate?" type of question which is just silly and not likely to produce serious replies.

[cosmik debris]

16. Algebra predates Islam by centuries

The first extant work which approaches to a treatise on algebra is by Diophantus (q.v.), an Alexandrian mathematician, who flourished about A.D. 350.

http://historymedren.about.com/od/aentries/a/11_algebra_2.htm

That's 200 yrs before the birth of Mohamed.

[Meshuga]

18. I did see that when I looked up Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi

And I saw in the wiki article that he is not considered the only "father of algebra". Diophantus of Alexandria is also considered the "father of algebra" like you said. Thanks for the link!

[Silent3]

11. Or perhaps the square root of all evil.

:evilgrin:

[Meshuga]

20. LOL

I think that is more accurate. :-)

[edhopper]

4. *

I bought a cupcake with green icing today for St Paddy's Day. It was good.

[rug]

8. If the Arabs did not invent zero, would we have Bush as president?

[Evoman]

12. Fuck it...I say we blame the first person who came up with numbers to count their pots.

Fucking Sumerian bastards probably.

[Random_Australian]

13. Yup, those shifty gluemongering bastards were probably the ones.

I say we nuke'em!

Note: If you want to argue that we can't, like many pro-numeral heathens have before, ("but they lived thousands of years ago" sound familiar?) please use proper Boojatta scripture and not numbers in your proof.

[edhopper]

14. Cuneiform

is the work of the Devil.

[Random_Australian]

22. Yeah - if they weren't hiding something, they'd write in english like normal people.

A secret plot to import Cattle of Mass Destruction, I bet.

[hunter]

15. "A Canticle for Leibowitz" is a good exploration of this...

http://books.google.com/books?id=k53eZ2ARZPwC&dq=%22a+canticle+for+leibowitz%22

"...there was still the serpent whispering: For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods."

[TechBear_Seattle]

17. False dilemma

It presupposes that, without Islam, algebra would never have been developed. In fact, the techniques and concepts of algebra were discovered independently in different parts of the world; we have it as a concept of Muslim mathematicians only because that is how it came to the attention of Christian mathematicians in the west. It could very easily have been a Chinese, Indian or Aztec idea.

[Boojatta]

19. "It presupposes that, without Islam, algebra would never have been developed."

Are you sure? For example, isn't it possible that, without Islam, people would have developed algebra after there were political institutions, laws, and traditions in place that made wars between nations a rarity on this planet, rather than an ongoing reality?

Suppose the following. Person P is on an airplane that will soon take off. P's spouse calls with a phony emergency, but P is fooled and gets off the plane. The plane crashes and there are no survivors. P survives because P wasn't on the airplane. P's spouse did not in any way contribute to the crash. P's spouse had no fact-based evidence that there would be a crash. P's spouse simply had a feeling that P was in danger.

Before we can claim that P's spouse saved P's life, do we need proof that P would not have survived the crash? After all, it's possible that a single person might survive a crash that kills all of the other people who were on the plane.

[TechBear_Seattle]

21. Algebra pre-dates Islam

Algebra as received by the Christian west was codified in the 9th century CE. The Wikipedia says that the "algebra" comes from Arabic Al-Kitāb al-mukhtasar fī hīsāb al-ğabr wa’l-muqābala, "The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing", written by Persian mathematician Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī. Merriam-Webster gives the meaning of al-ğabr as "the reduction."

However, there are Chinese mathematical essays giving examples of algebra and even integral calculus dating back more than hundred years earlier. In addition, there are works by Muslim and Hindu mathematicians in India around this same time which outlined the principles of algebra (keep in mind that decimal theory was a Hindu invention.) There is evidence that a primitive form of algebra was used by several Meso-American cultures including the Toltec and Mayans, and the ancient Egyptians had the Pythagorean Theorem and other algebraic concepts, even though they did not have a systematized theory of algebra.

Yes, without Islam, algebra would still have existed. By changing very small things, the Chinese could have developed the calculus six hundred years before Newton and Liebnitz; the technique of using variables might be known by a Sanskrit term rather than Arabic.

[lips]

23. /turbulent non-sense ahead

Numbers are why we expect the year 2012 is the teh climax of reality. yea o nay? excellence.

Is it better if we just give these people (Arabs, Persians, The Lone Fisher at the southern tip of the S. American continent, monks melting cave snow, etc.) a greater farthing of respect and quit shitting on their ways of life for the purposes of bringing fruition to the destruction of the planet?

I think the moment for the logic of appreciation has passed for the time being.

And nucular physics originates from BushCo.'s eye mind.
/non-sense

[Realityhack]

24. Is there a particular reason for your choice of false targets?

If you are trying to understand some retarded completely inane philosophical 'moral point' regarding unforgeable unintended negative consequences why not pick a better example? Why pick Islam as your false target?

(I say false target because as others have pointed out Islam is not responsible for algebra)

Could it be that you are more than a bit biased against Islam?

If not what exactly are you trying to discuss? Why are you trying to link Islam with nuclear terror?

In short... as usual WTF is your point/question?

[Boojatta]

25. Defend Islam if you believe it needs you to defend it.

Or propose a purified Islam that refrains from claiming that miracles have happened. You could get a million followers donating money that you could use for philanthropy.

[Realityhack]

26. WTF are you babling about now?

How about you do two things

1. Admit you made a mistake

2. Let us in on WTF you want to discuss

[Boojatta]

27. I'm much more interested in what is wrong than who is wrong.

Do you think that observation of a potential error is enough to conclude that there definitely is an error? For example, when people observed that questions about infinitesimals were not given coherent answers, would they have been justified in concluding that there can never be any coherent concept of infinitesimals and that all references to infinitesimals in calculus need to be eliminated?

"2. Let us in on..."
Who does "us" refer to?

[Realityhack]

28. Wow

your brain works in some alien way that I completely don't understand.

You: Could Islam be blamed for nuclear war (because of algebra)
Several other people: Islam didn't come up with algebra.
Me: why did you chose Islam? seeing as they where not responsible for algebra. What is your point?
You: Defend Islam if you think it needs it, or provide a purified for... (complete non sequitur)
ME: How about if you admit your mistake (regarding Islam and algebra) and let us know what you are trying to discuss.
You: Do you think observation of a potential error... (complete non sequitur)
You: who does 'we' refer to.


OMFG WTF

We refers to me and anyone else who doesn't know exactly what the hell point you are trying to discuss in this thread. And the operational deffinition of 'we' in this context is a complete red herring as it does not change the question in any way if you substitute 'me'. You are playing silly word games rather than making a point.

WHAT IS IT YOU WHERE TRYING TO PROMPT DISCUSSION ON WITH YOUR OP? How hard can that possibly be to answer?

---
As to your question
"Do you think that observation of a potential error is enough to conclude that there definitely is an error?"
No. No rational person thinks that. Please let me know what your point regarding that statement is.

[Boojatta]

29. "ME: How about if you admit your mistake"

Can you quote a statement I asserted in this thread? Can you prove that the quoted statement is false?

[Realityhack]

30. Oh for fucks sake.

"If nuclear physics could not have been developed without algebra, then would Islam be partly responsible for these hypothetical horrors to come?"

See above where people pointed out that algebra is not the result of Islam. Then think about admitting that you made a mistake.

[tinrobot]

31. Did Islam create algebra or Arabic individuals?

I don't see any reference to quadratic equations in the Koran.