Happy Good Friday!

[Zebedeo]

Today is the commemoration of the most momentous day in history. When God Himself took on the burden of our sins, and atoned for them. May God be praised!

[hifalutin]

1. Amen

and amen.
He died to save us all.
Happy Easter

[Zebedeo]

6. Amen, brother.

He is Risen indeed.

[knitter4democracy]

2. I'll have to wait a month, but happy Western Good Friday to you.

:hug:

[Zebedeo]

7. Thank you.

Which branch of Orthodox are you? I had a Greek landlady and friend once, and I enjoyed learning from her about the Greek Orthodox Church.

[knitter4democracy]

11. Russian Orthodox now.

When we converted, the closest church was a Greek one, so we were in the Greek church for six years. Then, we moved to St. Elias Orthodox Church, which is under the Russian Patriarch.

There are very small differences between Orthodox jurisdictions. The Greek church uses NT Greek and has one set of tones (for singing), and the Russian church uses Old Church Slavonic and has another set of tones, and that's about it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

3. Just came from a solemn Good Friday liturgy

Unadorned altar, only unaccompanied singing, semi-darkness, choir wearing purple cassocks.

[Zebedeo]

5. That sounds like a moving atmosphere

for your Good Friday service. We had some inspired solo performances at our church this evening, including a beautiful soprano operatic solo with all the lights turned off to open the service. We also had a responsive reading where the entire congregation shouted "Crucify Him!" over and over. That was heart-wrenching for me. I pray for His merciful forgiveness.

[Sanctified]

4. Good Friday was yesterday for me but let me give a big Happy Good Friday to everyone in the West.

Tomorrow (which will be Easter Sunday here in Japan) I am going to spend the day with my family soaking in a hot springs. This will be great because we will really have some quiet time to sit back and reflect on what it means to be a Christian and how important it is that we do not forget the importance of Jesus and his teachings in our lives.

[Zebedeo]

8. Well, it's Easter now for you.

Happy Easter! May you enjoy the celebration of the Resurrection of the Lord. May His teachings reside in our hearts and our minds and may we do His work here on Earth.

[SidDithers]

9. No, thank you...nt

Sid

[uberllama42]

10. Have you ever seen George Carlin's monologue about Jesus buffs?

I was looking for it on YouTube yesterday but I couldn't find it. In short, he describes the Good Friday/Easter story the way a news reporter would tell a story about "UFO buffs." He makes a good case for UFOs being more plausible than resurrection. Pretty damn funny.

ETA: I found a transcript:

As evidence of the above premise, I offer one version of a typical television news story heard each year on the final Friday of Lent:

"Today is Good Friday, observed by Christians worldwide as a day that commemorates the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, whose death redeemed the sins of mankind."

Here is the way it should be written:

"Today is Good Friday, observed worldwide by Jesus buffs as the day on which the popular, bearded cultural figure, sometimes referred to as The Messiah, was allegedly crucified and according to legend died for mankind's so-called sins. Today kicks off a 'holy' weekend that culminates on Easter Sunday, when, it is widely believed, this dead 'savior' who also, by the way, claimed to be the son of a sky-dwelling, invisible being known as God mysteriously 'rose from the dead.'

"According to the legend, by volunteering to be killed and actually going through with it, Jesus saved every person who has ever lived and every person who ever will live from an eternity of suffering in a fiery region popularly known as hell, providing so the story goes that the person to be 'saved' firmly believes this rather fanciful tale."

That would be an example of unbiased news reporting. Don't wait around for it to happen. The aliens will land first.


http://www.xanga.com/real_churchofchrist

[knitter4democracy]

12. Sounds like a mild version of what's often posted here.

This is the Western church's holiest of times. Can you please wait until after Easter to start in on how we all believe in fairy tales and are all stupid and blind and whatever else? Thanks.

[More Than A Feeling]

13. What an odd request...

People who don't buy "the Western church's" beliefs are supposed to use them as a basis for determining when they should and should not give their opinions on said beliefs? If they did that, wouldn't consistency require them to use those beliefs to determine their other actions, too?

The whole point of not being in a church is not caring what that church thinks. That includes determinations of "holiness," wouldn't you agree?

[knitter4democracy]

16. Would you do this with any religion?

I'm not saying you can't have your beliefs/opinions. I'm just saying, maybe putting something so cynical and blatantly anti-Christian on a thread started to wish all the Christians happy Easter wasn't the nicest thing to do.

So, are you going to the Happy Purim threads and posting nastiness there? The ones for Eid? I hardly ever see aggressive or nasty posts on threads for other faiths.

[More Than A Feeling]

18. I don't think I do it at all, but its important to me to defend

the rights and abilities of others to do so, regardless of which religion it relates to.

[knitter4democracy]

19. It's not that people don't have the right.

It's about mutual respect. The vast majority of Christians here are respectful of the other faiths and non-faith of people here.

Christianity is constantly attacked here, both the faith itself and its followers. That's fine. People have that right, and in such a predominantly Christian culture, having a place where they can vent and be themselves with impunity is a real boon. Still, it's not like the Christians here go out of their way to be nasty to non-believers (always excepting a couple of posters, and they're just as annoying to me as to everyone else), so why do those of non-faith and other faiths go out of their way to be rude and disrespectful to us?

[Realityhack]

24. You are asking for undue respect.

You want respect based on something being religious. I reject your claim that religion is somehow special. I will not stop criticizing republicans just because it's their caucus and they have firmly held beliefs and I shouldn't be mean during their moment to shine. why should your religious beliefs be special?
religion for some reason must be 'respected' (always or during it's 'special times' - same argument either way). Thats BS not afforded to other topics. I do not give religion a pass. Your imaginary holly times are not holly. They are fictitiously holly.

[knitter4democracy]

25. No, I'm asking for respect for the people who post here.

I don't care what people believe or don't believe in. Posting something nasty just to tick them off isn't respectful.

Look, let's say Dawkins died (he hasn't yet, thank goodness). Let's say the atheists here started a thread about how much they respected him and his work and how they'd miss him. Would you be okay if I came on that thread and posted links to Dawkins bashing sites and said, hey, it's my right? Just because he's dead I don't have to give him or you guys a pass, yadda yadda. No, that would be mean and disrespectful. Instead, I'd post something about how sorry I am he's gone and how he'd be missed, and that would be it.

Oh, and I don't worship "holly," btw. What's fictitious holly? Is that like planting silk flowers or something. ;)

[Realityhack]

32. Actualy I am not shure that I would have a problem with that n/t

[Realityhack]

14. No

I don't care if people don't like pictures of Mohamed and I don't care if you don't like the timing of criticism of your beliefs. Feel free to ignore it but when such beliefs are most on display is a perfectly appropriate time to comment on them.

[knitter4democracy]

17. I disagree.

It's not that I mind criticism, since it's posted constantly here and not just in the R/T forum. It just seems a bit gratuitous on the most holy day for Christians. You're not going to convince anyone you're right during the most powerful time of the year.

[Realityhack]

23. so?

who said I was trying to convince devout Christians who see this time as super holly?

I just disagree with following a religions rules or requests for when and how it can be criticized. Easter is a great time to discuss easter an religions that include it.

You seem to think that peoples personal distaste for hearing things at particular times should somehow limit our saying what we believe. I think thats garbage. I will not stop saying what I usually say because it's one of your many holly times of the year.

[knitter4democracy]

26. That wasn't criticism, though. It was a silly and tasteless joke.

If you want to post criticism of Easter, fine. It's the R/T forum. That's cool and completely expected. Coming on a thread for Christians to wish each other happy and blessed Easter and posting a tasteless joke isn't criticism. It's just tasteless and nasty.

[trotsky]

29. Christians have their own protected group in which they can wish each other whatever they want.

And you will see not a single negative comment.

In fact, posting a specifically Christian celebratory message in an open religion/theology forum could be seen as unwelcome proselytizing. In addition to atheists and agnostics, there are people here from other faiths who don't celebrate Easter.

I'm afraid any attempt to squelch discussion, even if you find it "tasteless and nasty" in the timing, is going to be fruitless in an open forum. And as you can see, it actually kept the discussion going.

[knitter4democracy]

30. I hadn't thought of proselytizing. That's a good point.

Then, post something about that. That's a very good point, one that should be explored. Is a Christian wishing the other Christians a happy Easter actually secretly proselytizing, even if they don't think they are, simply because of the nature of this forum? I'm not sure, but it's an interesting viewpoint.

[John Gauger]

20. No.

Outlandish, illogical ideas that are claimed without any evidence aren't deserving of any respect, not now or at any other time. Do you really expect us to allow you special treatment because you or anyone else has a peculiar fetish for this time of year? You really expect to come here spouting your nonsensical beliefs without any kind of objection or comment from those that think about things a little more rationally? I think you should know better by now.

I reject your very concept of Easter as a holy time. The idea that this time of the year is special is part and parcel of the illogical, nonsensical beliefs espoused by Western Christians. To suspend our criticisms of these beliefs because these beliefs say so is utterly nonsensical. With that logic we would never say anything at any time of the year, because that would be disrespectful.

"We all believe in fairy tales?" Am I being asked to show special respect for Eastern Christians as well? Am I currently unallowed to disparage Eastern beliefs? It's not their holiday. How about Muslims? Would it be out of line on this day to say that Sharia law is positively barbaric?

No, I will not be silenced due to your squeamishness.

[knitter4democracy]

27. I'm not saying you should be silent.

I am saying there are times and ways to post things that aren't so deliberately nasty or tasteless.

You think I believe in fairy tales. Fine. I get it. I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian, so I take Easter very seriously. You aren't, so you don't. I get it. Coming onto a thread for Christians in the R/T forum and pissing all over it is just plain nasty, though.

Let's say that someone started a Pi Day celebration thread about the beauty of math and those of non-faith took it over, celebrating math and science and how much man's accomplished. Would it be okay for some Christian to get on there and post some tasteless joke about mathematicians burning in hell? No way. Posting real criticism (I can't think of any, but let's say there is some) I could see, but a tasteless joke? People would be all over that and telling the Christian to leave the thread and then attacking that person for believing in fairy tales, as you call it, and on and on.

I'm not asking for anything special. Posting real criticism is fine and expected. Posting tasteless and over-used jokes just shows the poster to be angry and nasty, and I would hope that's not how the poster really is.

[John Gauger]

36. I certainly wouldn't like that.

I would find it tasteless and stupid. I daresay I would engage this fellow and challenge his views based on their merits. I can't honestly say I would be threatened by this hypothetical joker, because the idea of hell is purely silly. But I can tell you one thing I would not do: I would not ask him to censor himself. He has a right to his opinion and he has a right to express it wherever he pleases. He is within his constitutional rights, and so long as he is not breaking the rules he may post freely in this forum. He has a right to his speech; I do not have a right to respect or tact or lack of offense, no matter how utterly fatuous this theoretical yokel is. Make no mistake - I take very seriously cries of "You can't say that here." It's censorship and it's bullshit.

You fail to understand what the point of Carlin's joke is. This is because the original poster left out quite a deal of context. The point is that there is an appalling disparity between the way UFO believers are treated in the media and the way Christians are treated. I don't have time but I'll transcribe the rest later. But even without all that, how is that not real criticism? Claims of Christ's resurrection are just as outlandish and unsupported as claims of alien visitation. In fact, as Carlin shows, they are far more so. And yet they are treated as kooks and cranks in the media. These UFO types believe their stories every bit as much as and with the same emotional investment that you believe the whole Christ pageant. Whatever level you think that is, don't you think that they deserve the same level of respect as you and yours? Nothing that the poster included was out of line - the Resurrection pageant is a rather fanciful tale that is espoused without any evidence and that ties into a larger, equally outlandish drama of a man who died to remove so-called sins and an invisible, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, supernatural being. In what way is that not a real criticism?

Now if I was in the habit of casting mean-spirited aspersions against other posters, I could easily say that you are a bully who hopes to regulate the speech and views of others. I could further say that you have a persecution complex and that you object loudly and indignantly when reasonable criticisms are leveled by those who simply have a different sense of humor than you do, and that you attempt to obfusticate honest debate with a fearful political correctness. But if I did that would be fucking stupid, because I would be making wildly inflammatory accusations against your person and your whole life based on one single solitary piece of evidence. There is no way I could make blanket statement like that about you from just one little thing I saw you wrote that I could pick some things out which I didn't like. I don't like the arguments you've presented, but that tells me precious little about who you are. I happen to know UberLlama personally, and I can tell you that you are in no position to make accusations against his good character.

Lastly, show me where I said you believe in fairy tales.

[knitter4democracy]

37. I get the joke. I'm not stupid, thanks.

I find it interesting everyone assumes I didn't get it. I got it--it wasn't particularly funny. It's the same old, same old I see posted here pretty much every day of the week.

Maybe you didn't use the term "fairy tales," but it's used here pretty commonly to refer to anyone and everyone who has a belief system. In fact, there's a whole thread here that has that title right now. It's a common slam to believers--compare us to children who still believe in fairy tales because only when you grow up and become enlightened can you see all of faith as stupid as it supposedly is. It gets a bit tiring, frankly. I hate it when I see Christians slam atheists by calling them "fundamentalists" (what a stupid use of the term, not to mention totally insulting), I hate it when I see Christians post stuff that's offensive and insulting, but I also don't like it when I see agnostics and atheists infantilize us and call us stupid.

I get it. You think everyone should be able to post anything and everything at any time. I happen to disagree. I think that deliberately posting inflaming material or annoying jokes is counterproductive for good debate. I do think everyone here deserves respect until they show themselves to be a troll. Every single poster is a real person, and I try (don't always do it well, but I do try) to remember that when I post and write things so that I don't offend. Obviously, I have offended people, but that's when I try to find out how it happened and how not to do it again. I don't come here to blatantly offend a bunch of people and get off on it--that's what trolls do. Surely DUers can do better than that.

One thing I find very interesting about this forum: it's called the Religion/Theology forum, and yet, very little religion or theology is discussed here. Philosophy, yes. History of faiths, yes. Actual religion? Not so much. The OP of the "Why I'm still Catholic" was actually told to just move it to the Catholic/Orthodox group because, apparently, discussing religion on the Religion/Theology forum is bad. Why is that? Why is it that the most active posters here are atheists? I mean, sexist bigots don't post on the Women's Rights forum, and capitalism lovers don't post on the Poverty forum, so why do those of non-faith, who don't believe in either Religion or Theology, dominate the R/T forum? I find that a wee bit odd. I'm not saying they should silence themselves (I don't know how often I can reiterate that) by any means, but why are there so many religion-bashing posts in the R/T forum? I've seen many posts referring to how this seems to be a safe place for those of non-faith, which makes sense, considering the US is not a safe place for an atheist and is getting worse, but why here? Just to get the satisfaction of pissing off a Christian? Odd.

Am I easily offended? Nope. I've known easily offended Christians, and they need to get a life. I don't think I'm being persecuted (at least, not until someone throws me to the lions or chops off my head), and I love a good debate. I just didn't think a "Happy Easter" thread started by a Christian to the other Christians on the board was the place to post a rehashed joke, but it's not like I was offended. I used to teach high school, and after that, it takes a lot to really get to me.

[SidDithers]

22. No, if you want blind respect for Christian beliefs...

post your prayers and blessings in the Christian group.

Sid

[knitter4democracy]

28. Blind respect?

That's a new term I haven't seen.

So, does that mean people on this board of non-faith shouldn't be respected, either? I mean, it's not like some here haven't been nasty or almost troll-like in how they attack the few Christians here. So, should I take the actions of a few here and extrapolate that to mean that every single atheist and every single agnostic here should never get anything resembling respect from me? That's just plain ridiculous.

[SidDithers]

31. Respect is earned...

I may grow to respect you as a poster over a period of time, but the idea that a set of beliefs should automatically be respected doesn't fly in this forum.

If you want confrontation-free dialogue, post your Christian prayers and blessings in the Christian group. In R/T, there are no sacred cows, or time-outs. Any request to stifle discussion, whether temporary or permanent, will usually be met with a firm but polite (sometimes not-so-polite) "No".

Sid

[knitter4democracy]

34. Where did I say I wanted to stifle discussion?

Discussion is wonderful. Nasty attacks just for the fun of it? No. Come on, we're all better than that.

[uberllama42]

33. I'm sorry you were offended by the joke

But I'm also sorry you missed Carlin's point. By taking offense at the comparison, you are implying that the ideas of UFO believers are inferior to those of the Christian faith. Notwithstanding Carlin's well-known position on religious belief presented in other monologues, all he is saying here is that Christians benefit from a culture that gives privilege their ideas while deriding less popular ideas of equal merit. Your objection demonstrates that beautifully.

It didn't occur to me that some people might be offended at the joke. If I had intended to offend people, I would have posted a reply to Zebedeo or one of the other Christians in this thread rather than Sid, and that post would have been far nastier than what I posted. There are plenty of Carlin monologues I could have used which are not ready for daytime TV like "They Came From Out of the Sky" is.

As has been said in other replies above, this is a public forum and all ideas are up for debate here. Posters here have to expect treatment much more malicious than a particularly tepid George Carlin bit. I wouldn't object if you went into the science forum on 3/14 and started derogating Carl Sagan, because I don't think my ideas are sacrosanct. I not only tolerate but expect critical comment on the ideas I espouse and the people I respect. That's part of the dialog in a public forum.

[knitter4democracy]

35. It's not that I didn't get the joke.

I got it. I just didn't think this thread was the best place for it.

Look, I totally get that, like it or not, the US has a Christian-based culture so Christianity gets a pass 99% of the time. I'm not okay with that, either, frankly. I think it's good for us to question and debate, but I also think there's a time and a place for most anything.

If someone started a thread on how someone big in the atheist rights community died, I wouldn't post a joke there. I'd respect the feelings of the posters and post something on how sorry I was that s/he died and that I hoped the community could use that person's strength to carry on. I wouldn't go in there, find a nasty Christian post and respond to it with a silly or tasteless joke about how "stupid" atheists are (which I don't believe, but there are a couple of Christian posters here who seem to). It's not the time or place.

[John Gauger]

21. Seriously, suppose I'm in Roswell.

Am I expected not to argue with the true believers because this is a "special place" for them and that would be disrespectful? They're just as wrong regardless of where they are, and regardless of what day it is.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. Going to Easter Vigil tonight

:-)