Corpus Christi - or why I remain a Catholic.

[pinto]

Even while a million gazillion self-help books get sold, religion continues to fall out of favor, save for the regrettable extremist factions. I find that odd.

I'm a Catholic. Yes, it's a dated, ritualistic, sexist sort of thing. Eh. What isn't? Ritual is basic to most of our lives, secular and religious. Sex is a given. And history, dated as it may be, remains. And even in that, is there no value there?

I think there is. Dogma aside, Catholicism has meant more to me than making Mass on Sunday or not. It has been a framework in much of my life. Social as well as spiritual, of the body as well as the soul. It has provided me some guidelines for conduct I still strive to maintain. Do unto others comes to mind. As does what happens to the least of us. Remember the Sabbath may mean no more than some time to stop and take a breather. It's not rocket science. And it's not make believe. It's very much about being human, as far as I can figure.

I remain specifically a Catholic because I like the basic format of the Mass. The last dinner meeting, the shared bread and wine and the very common human hope - remember me. Jesus was a special guy to have been remembered this long, yet I have seen the same sentiment in others as they took their last lap here.

And that was probably the Rabbi's lasting lesson.

[patrice]

1. The Mass is perfect.

The Church, on the other hand . . . .

Appears to have become too enamored of the idea of deposing Roe v. Wade. I think the result of that, magnified by other social factors, is Bush's War.

[pinto]

3. Yeah, I abhor the politicization of the church. And vica versa.

[patrice]

6. I still consider myself Catholic, though there are those who say I'm not. nt

[SharonAnn]

7. The Church, on the other hand, is too enamored of subjugating women.

In many ways:
Cannot become a priest
Cannot use birth control
Can't have abortion

And many, many more subtle things.

As a woman, I find that they really don't want me. They want a subject, and that's not who I am.

[patrice]

8. True.

I read once what the official justification for the opposition to ordaining women is and it amounted to this: "There have been no women priests, therefore, there should be no women priests."

They're afraid of women.

[Realityhack]

10. They are afraid of change.

Women priests are just one of those changes.
I think there is some fear of women in power for whatever reason but I think their greater issue is change itself. Any significant change challenges their fundamental basis of power.

[theredpen]

11. Some of the most celebrated women in history are Catholic women

[John Gauger]

15. Two things:

1) Like who? I could go on about claims and evidence, but I'm sure you've heard it all before and understand the nature of my objection.

2) So? What bearing does that have on the previous statement that the Catholic Church does not treat women well? If anything, that casts the Church in a worse light, because so many of the women it deals with are deserving of more than the average amount of respect. (Of course, just because somebody is popular doesn't mean that he or she is actually deserving of that respect, but that's a separate matter.)

[theredpen]

18. Joan of Arc

Joan of Arc was put in charge of an army and made a Saint.

[struggle4progress]

19. (1) In charge of army (2a) Won (2b) Lost (3) Burned as transvestite (4) Sainthood

(1) and (2a) of course are really great!

(2b) and (3) maybe not so great ...

(4) certainly a positive development but the intermission lasted several hundred years

[theredpen]

20. (3) AGAINST the orders of the Pope

(4) Sometimes takes a while. That's the way it is.

[struggle4progress]

27. I am not expert here, but the only Papal intervention of which I am now aware

is that her sentence was overturned in Rome twenty years after the English burned her

Whatever the subsequent history, Joan, after all the intervening centuries, remains a fresh and authentic personality: I find her explanation of her almost immediate retraction of her recantation, on which she insisted, despite clearly understanding it meant she would burn, quite inspiring

[Book Lover]

33. While I freely grant that the Church gave me many things that made me strong,

the Church screwed me up in some fundamental ways that I also cannot deny. Being a complete, happy, and fulfilled woman in the catholic church is nigh impossible. It just doesn't work for the majority of women.

[Dorian Gray]

34. Ahem...

I am quite a happy and fulfilled woman, and an active member of the Catholic Church. I don't think it is impossible, though I can see why some may have not wanted to stay within the church.

[JerseygirlCT]

26. Yes. Which is why this former RC is now an Episcopalian

All the mass, none of the misogyny.

[theredpen]

2. Let the Catholic bashing commence

You might want to repost this in the Catholic/Orthodox Group where it won't get crapped on.

[pinto]

4. Didn't even realize there was a Catholic/Orthodox Group....duh.

I'm fine with posting this here, but I'll check out the group. Thanks.

[MercutioATC]

5. Hey, whatever works for you.

I'm a happy atheist, but if you find comfort in the ritual, who's to question it?

(not meant to be snide in the least...I believe people should be where they're happy)

[Realityhack]

9. Found you post a bit confusing.

"Even while a million gazillion self-help books get sold, religion continues to fall out of favor, save for the regrettable extremist factions. I find that odd."
In what way is it odd?

"I'm a Catholic. Yes, it's a dated, ritualistic, sexist sort of thing. Eh. What isn't? Ritual is basic to most of our lives, secular and religious. Sex is a given. And history, dated as it may be, remains. And even in that, is there no value there?"
1. what do you mean by 'sex is a given'? Are you trying to imply that sexism is inevitable so we should just excuse it? I assume not, but I can not decode what it is you are trying to say.
2. You lost me with the last two sentences. History remains? I should think so. and the last one is a complete mystery to me as to what you meant.

"Dogma aside, Catholicism has meant more to me than making Mass on Sunday or not. It has been a framework in much of my life. Social as well as spiritual, of the body as well as the soul. It has provided me some guidelines for conduct I still strive to maintain. Do unto others comes to mind. As does what happens to the least of us. Remember the Sabbath may mean no more than some time to stop and take a breather. It's not rocket science. And it's not make believe. It's very much about being human, as far as I can figure."
Those guidelines aren't even unique to being religious, never mind specifically Catholic. As such the do not seem to support your central thesis.

"I remain specifically a Catholic because I like the basic format of the Mass..."
Interesting reason. I do not see how this keeps you Catholic in the face of all the reasons not to be, but fair enough... you like the mass.

"Jesus was a special guy to have been remembered this long"
Does not follow.

"yet I have seen the same sentiment in others as they took their last lap here."
sorry but you lost me there. What do you mean?

[Fenris]

12. Good for you, man.

I never felt like I fit into Catholicism, which is probably why I became a devout Anglican/Episcopalian. You have to go with what works for you. :hi:

[struggle4progress]

13. I was never Catholic: I have been Lutheran, except when I have been atheist,

but for quite a while I did go to Catholic masses regularly

Frankly, from certain priests I have heard some of the best homilies I have heard: in fact, it was something like Liberation Theology, preached by some Catholics, that brought me back to the church

I went to those masses for years saying to myself something like well, I do not believe it as the fundamentalists believe it; perhaps for them I will always be an atheist; but I hope for mercy and truth and justice and the feeding of the hungry and the seeing of the blind; and most such hopes are illogical or impossible; so how can I proceed, if I confine myself only to what I might rationally hope for, since that is so limited and so convinced myself that I believed it as well as I was able, according to my understanding

[John Gauger]

16. So, basically,

you just decided to reject reality because you didn't like it? I guess it's good that you can so frankly admit that, but don't you see a problem there?

[struggle4progress]

17. Hmmm. (1) Do I like "reality"? Well, as far as I can grasp it, I have mixed feelings:

some aspects I find wonderful and inspiring; others, I find dreadful and unacceptable. (2) Do I deliberately reject "reality"? No, I think we may have a substantial moral obligation to be "realistic". (3) Could there ever be any reason to be foolishly non-realistic in certain circumstances? Yes, I think that, in certain situations, we may have a moral obligation to attempt to accomplish things which every logical analysis suggests are at best unlikely and perhaps even utterly impossible

Now, it's your turn! So, basically, you just decided that whenever somebody says something you don't understand, you should set out to insult them and mischaracterize what they say, because it makes you uncomfortable and you don't like that? Maybe it's good to frankly admit that, but can't you think of a better way to proceed?

[John Gauger]

25. What did I accuse you of saying that you didn't say?

I felt I understood what you were saying just fine. Now, please forgive me if I'm wrong, I had no intention to malign or insult you, I just feel the need to object when somebody says that they reject reality because they don't like it, which I think is the only fair interpretation of what you said. I have read it a second time, but it still says what it said before. You said you want to believe in things even though they are contrary to reason. What else could that possibly mean? And you just said it again - you said we have a moral obligation to attempt to do things that we know are impossible. If that's not rejecting reality, I don't know what is. And further, like what? In what endeavors are we obligated to pretend we are going to succeed when we know we are doomed to failure.

[struggle4progress]

28. I do not say one must pretend one is succeeding when failing: I say that

there conditions can be so unacceptable that one has a moral obligation to attempt to change them, even if there is no prospect of succeeding

[emilyg]

14. I leave the Church periodically

and always go back.

[varkam]

21. I have to admit...

that I've said on more than one occasion if I were a Christian I'd rather be Catholic than anything else. I've always found the services beautiful.

Alas, I just can't believe in the whole "god" thing. :hi:

[More Than A Feeling]

23. I've been wanting to make a post in a/a or here about atheist flavors.

I heard a suggestion that atheists of different religious backgrounds have different "flavors" of atheism, if you will. Meaning that there is a Jewish-flavored atheism, a Catholic atheism, a Protestant atheism and so on...what do you think?

[varkam]

24. Makes sense to me.

Religion has a cultural influence aside from a theological one - so it would make sense if we all had different bents. Me? I'm actually probably more of a buddha-flavored atheist than anything else :D

[Book Lover]

32. As a former catholic, I completely agree

I went from being a catholic atheist to a pagan atheist. The gods I don't believe in are the old ones.

[More Than A Feeling]

22. What would you be if you did decide to stop identifying with Catholicism?

[hifalutin]

29. I have decided that

I am a Christian, period.
Decided not affiliate myself with organized religion.

[More Than A Feeling]

31. Christianity is an organized religion.

Surrendering denominational affiliation can't change that.

[knitter4democracy]

30. I became Orthodox because of the liturgy.

I found that, as an evangelical Christian in search of a better version of the faith, I need the icons, the incense, the candles, and the singing. I need all of that to stay grounded. It's not for everyone, but I understand why you're Catholic. :hug:

[Meshuga]

35. You were born into it and it is part of your culture

It is part of who you are. And if you feel that it helped turn you into a good and decent human being then why change what works for you, right? :-)

[pinto]

36. Thanks for your posts all. I've been offline for a bit, just reading this.

:hi: