Can you describe an event that cannot occur?

[Boojatta]

Poll question: Can you describe an event that cannot occur?

[applegrove]

1. Obama/Hillary or Hillary/Obama ticket.

[mike_c]

2. that's a hell of a question to pose just before I go into a faculty meeting!

:rofl:

I'm probably not going to get any further work done today. IMO, the question boils down to "can we describe an event with a probability of zero?" The first step is determining what kind of event has p = 0.

Now I've got to run to the meeting....

[Boojatta]

4. Not every set of measure zero is an empty set.

If you use a frequency approach to probability, then it is relevant to observe that the limit of a fraction may approach zero even though the numerator is not zero.

[mike_c]

11. that is exactly the problem....

"Impossible" events can be of at least two kinds-- improbable events with p -> 0 and REALLY impossible events with p = 0. The former are just matters of conditional probability (I think), i.e. under the posited conditions, p -> 0 and there is some small but positive probability of occurrance. The second kind are impossible under all conditions.

My head hurts now.

[Boojatta]

12. I don't think you've got that right.

With the frequency approach, probability is defined as a limit. Thus, p = 0 means that the limit of the fraction is zero. That a sequence converges to zero doesn't tell us that all terms in the sequence are zero.

In other words, p = 0 is simply not a sufficiently demanding condition to ensure impossibility. However, if you use some approach other than the frequency approach, it might be sufficiently demanding, but you would need to explain why you think that it's sufficiently demanding.

[MilesColtrane]

3. I defer to the great philosopher Steven Martin who said...

"It's impossible...to stick a Cadillac up your nose, it's just impossible."

[damntexdem]

9. Could you please describe that in detail?

[MilesColtrane]

19. Yeah...just as soon as I find my fake arrow through the head appliance...

[Deep13]

5. Yes.

[havocmom]

6. Fantasy & Sci Fi writers do it all the time

As do most politicians and teenagers.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

7. Me voting Republican

Can NOT occur.

[damntexdem]

8. Providing such a description cannot occur.

So it would look like this ... I would write a short statement to the effect that it could not occur.

[edhopper]

10. Can you describe

a poll that should not be posted?

[Az]

13. Someone memorizing Pi to the final digit

Simple refutation of the premise.

[Boojatta]

14. You could have voted for this option...

"Yes, but the description will have to be internally inconsistent."

Given some basic axioms of mathematics, one can show that there is no final digit in pi. Of course, there's also no final digit in 1/7, so you could have chosen a simpler example.

I extract from your post a good point. It's not logic alone that the description must be consistent with. The description must be consistent with basic axioms. Some people claim that it's possible to derive basic mathematical axioms from logic alone, but that is itself a controversial claim and shouldn't be simply presumed without explanation.

[Az]

15. There are other problems as well

The human brain does not have the capacity to memorize Pi. A brain the size of the universe would not have the capacity to memorize such a number.

[Boojatta]

16. It requires some time and energy to retrieve memories.

In some cases, it is more efficient to compute information than to retrieve it from memory.

Now, I gather that your point is that there are restricted amounts of resources available to do things. However, these restrictions on resources don't necessarily restrict what can be done unless there are restrictions on the processes that are used to do things.

For example, if I can wave a magic wand and instantly convert some volume of milk into cheese, then you might say, "Okay, I'm impressed, but you can't wave that wand and produce a trillion pounds of cheese because there's not enough milk." Well, that would be silly because if you know nothing about how the wand works, then how do you know that the milk is essential?

[Az]

17. Is your original question relating to reality?

Or is fantasy within the parameters? If fantasy is an option then there is nothing I can think that would refute the issue. I can define Pi as 3 and memorize that if we throw reality out the window.

[Boojatta]

18. There have been times when...

the vast majority of informed thinkers would have classified a description of people making a trip to the moon and back as "fantasy."

The original question is about reality, but it's not restricted as to when or where the events may occur.

[cyborg_jim]

21. There is a final digit in 1/7.

If you do not limit yourself to base 10 representations of it.

Rational numbers have finite expressions. Irrational numbers do not. So PI is a more appropriate number than 1/7.

[Jim__]

22. "It's not logic alone that the description must be consistent with."

According to Wittgenstein's Tractatus, the logical constraint is the strongest constraint that exists:

3.032
To present in language anything which "contradicts logic" is as impossible as in geometry to present by its co-ordinates a figure which contradicts the laws of space; or to give the co-ordinates of a point which does not exist.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3.0321
We could present spatially an atomic fact which contradicted the laws of physics, but not one which contradicted the laws of geometry.

3.0321 implies that we can describe an event that can't happen, if the reason it can't happen is based on physics. But, according to 3.032, we can't describe an event that is not logically consistent.

To accept these propositions, you have to accept Wittgenstein's assertions about what language has "sense" and what is nonsense. For instance, I can claim I drew a 4-sided triangle. But according to Wittgenstein this is nonsense. Based on your question, I havent fully described the event.

But, I could say I picked up a large rock and threw it into space. It's physically impossible, but fully described.

[Deep13]

20. Dribbling a football. nt

[TechBear_Seattle]

23. When pigs fly, trees walk and Democrats aknowledge they blew an election all on their own

What do I win?

[varkam]

24. Well, what is an event that cannot occur?

The only things that I can think of that absolutely cannot occur are ones that involve logical contradictions, such as stating that a bachelor is married.