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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 05:08 PM
Original message
The problem with rearing children on religion
There have been more than a few studies which strongly correlate presenting children with too many logically inconsistent paradigms and the development of mental disease. Furthermore, logic is LEARNED more than it is innate. You can permanently stunt reason by raising someone on a diet of 1+1 = 542,000.

The brain wires itself based on what you feed it in terms of information. It is doing so every milisecond of every day, but this is especially important during childhood. An important part of learning, especially during childhood, is culling. Your brain culls connections and even neurons that are out of synch with their associated neurons... another way of saying if you have a neuron that says 1+1=542,000 while the rest are saying 1+1=2, your brain may well kill the wonky one because it's afraid that it might be defective. It's a much more complicated process than that of course but you get the idea. People who develop schizophrenia are almost always genetically predisposed to it. But being predisposed doesn't mean that you will get it! So very much of it has to do with upbringing, and then stressful triggers.

But Schizophrenia (though quite common) is certainly not the only way that you can express an illogical improperly wired brain. Schizotypal disorders involve many of the same symptoms of Schizophrenia. Below is a link to I believe the first study linking parenting styles to the development of Schizophrenia. There have been many conducted since then.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9A02E6DD1238F932A25751C1A962948260

Thats a good primer on the studies.. that was one of the first. There are many more that basically boil down to a "no brainer": You can miswire a brain by feeding it things that don't make sense. Shocking I know :eyes: Kinda helps explain the Middle Ages a little doesn't it?

Here's some signs of schizophrenia -

------------------------
Delusions
A delusion is a firmly-held idea that a person has despite clear and obvious evidence that it isn’t true. Delusions are extremely common in schizophrenia, occurring in more than 90% of patients. Often, these delusions involve illogical or bizarre ideas or fantasies. Common schizophrenic delusions include:

Delusions of persecution — Belief that others, often a vague “they,” are out to get him or her. These persecutory delusions often involve bizarre ideas and plots (e.g. “Martians are trying to poison me with radioactive particles delivered through my tap water”).

Delusions of reference — A neutral environmental event is believed to have a special and personal meaning. For example, a person with schizophrenia might believe a billboard or a person on TV is sending a message meant specifically for them.

Delusions of grandeur — Belief that one is a famous or important figure, such as Jesus Christ or Napolean. Alternately, delusions of grandeur may involve the belief that one has unusual powers that no one else has (e.g. the ability to fly).

Delusions of control — Belief that one’s thoughts or actions are being controlled by outside, alien forces. Common delusions of control include thought broadcasting (“My private thoughts are being transmitted to others”), thought insertion (“Someone is planting thoughts in my head”), and thought withdrawal (“The CIA is robbing me of my thoughts.”).

Common signs of disorganized speech in schizophrenia include:

Loose associations — Rapidly shifting from topic to topic, with no connection between one thought and the next.
Neologisms — Made-up words or phrases that only have meaning to the patient.
Perseveration — Repetition of words and statements; saying the same thing over and over.
Clang — Meaningless use of rhyming words (“I said the bread and read the shed and fed Ned at the head.").
---------------------
http://www.helpguide.org/mental/schizophrenia_symptom.htm

Any of this sound familiar?



Personally i think that there is much that is of cultural and personal value in religion, but one has to be careful. Hallucinogenic drugs can also be useful as part of religious services, or for even personal development. But I am FIRMLY of the belief that you have to seperate fantasy/parable land from what we can test and prove.

You can't teach children simultaneously that gravity is immutable and that people can levitate if they believe enough in their invisible friends. You cannot wire a brain in two directions at the same time!!!!! To do so makes crazy people! 1+1=2 dammit! Believe in god all you want but for the love of the children help them understand that there is a difference between faith and reality. By definition they are two seperate things!
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east texas lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Indeed, even one's faith is not another's absolute.
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes this is another problem with faith
Most religions teach at least some form of intollerance.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Lol
Then the level of faith on DU must be quite high, because I've never seen such an intolerant lot when it comes to discussions of religion. Including calling people mentally ill and dangerous as parents.
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I'm not calling anyone a "dangerous parent"
But it is dangerous to the mind to be forced to reconcile the irreconcilable. Did you read the article above? Would you like more?
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. More of what? Opinion pieces
which are little more than "You believes? You's be crazzy!" type crap dressed up in psycho-babble designed to peg one's opponents as deviant? No, thank you. It's frightfully cheap, gimmicky sophism.

As for reconciling the irreconcilable, paradox is part of human thought whether it is natural or philosophical in nature. Things must be fitted together. You don't think there are such things in science? Was it dangerous for minds to marry Newtonian physics and special relativity?

Isn't the entire journey of life full of instances wherein we encounter new phenomena and data that have to be reconciled, one way or another, with our worldview? It isn't "dangerous." It's called growth, and I would hate to live without it.
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Ok so you didn't read it. Don't take my words as fact
My words are opinions, but the article which describes a very well known study which has been very well replicated is worth reading. I'm not trying to say that everyone who believes is crazy, simply pointing out a connection between two things:

1) The well established findings on the development of schizophrenia and schizotypal disorders and their connections with an illogical upbringing.
2) The fact that religion is inherently illogical... hence the words "believe" and "faith".

And if it's so easy to reconcile, explain to me then why there are so many fundies who can't understand science while floating people and zombies are so very "real". Explain to me how people can argue that "I know I'm right because god speaks to me." Explain to me how people can think that sending someone a 20 dollar bill will buy them a ticket to heaven?

Come on please refute my arguments and the research behind it with LOGIC and REASON rather than a couple of offhand smears.

Things that do fit together are meant to be fitted together. Things that contradict each other are meant for one of them to prevail.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. This makes me wonder what those kids from that cult...
...who know what these kids have been taught, and how long it will take to free their brains of the lies.

Thank you for posting.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Uh, several recent studies suggest schizophrenics are MORE logical than most people
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. You're using logic! Witch! Witch! (or Wizard! Wizard!) n/t
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
32. Tell that to my friend who's child is hospitalized...
after THREE failed exorcisms.

:crazy:

Wonder WHY he thinks a demon is inhabiting him?

:crazy:
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bonzotex Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. funny, Thank You!
Edited on Thu May-08-08 05:55 PM by bonzotex
As a sick personal pastime, I listen to a lot of Militia/Patriot/911-truther type radio. I hadn't really thought of these folks as schizophrenic -- deluded surely, but not pathologically sick. They do, however; exhibit, at least mildly, all the signs you list of schizophrenia.

I do think you can teach stupidity. Actually training people to think illogically. I can't think of any better tool than religion to break down the initial cognitive barriers between observed reality and a self-perpetuating delusional fantasy world.

I heard once that atheism is a "condom for the mind". You can stick your brain in nasty places and pull it out un-diseased. As an atheist that makes sense to me, but there's really not a requirement to be atheist. It works just as well to say, "logic is a condom for the mind".

One of my pet peeves of education is most students will never take a logic class in high school. Even most Universities treat it as an elective.
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Beregond2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yes,
there is definitely a problem in this country that derives from these issues. As you rightly point out, people need to be taught exactly what reason is and how it functions, and what qualifies as logical and what doesn't. Without that skill, how can democracy survive?

A lot of this stems from the separation of religion and science that happened in the so-called "Age of Reason." Because western religion was unwilling to adapt to the new findings of science, a truce was declared. Science was allowed free reign in the natural sciences, while moral philosophy and metaphysics were left to religion. This had the result of creating a schizophrenic split in both society at large and within individuals. Religion no longer owed any allegiance to reason, and science had no ethical or moral constraints placed upon it.

The powerful strain of anti-intellectualism in America ultimately derives from the distrust of reason engendered by religions that see their truth as being threatened by logic and evidence. The truth is, any valid religion must conform to the dictates of reason, and any valid science must serve the spiritual needs of mankind. This split has been disastrous.

BUT...it is ending. Modern physics is coming to conclusions that are anything but threatening to spirituality, if people only knew it. The question is whether there is enough time left for this new paradigm to take hold, whether people on both sides of the divide can overcome their prejudices enough to see that the quest for truth is one. There is no longer any need to say: "I can only allow logic and evidence to sway me up to a point. Anything beyond that would destroy my faith." Or: "I can't follow that line of reasoning, or look at that evidence. It might lead me to something resembling religion, and that's not science."

I used to wonder why logic was not taught in our public schools, but that is why: it would lead children to question what they hear in church, and the fundamentalist mentality can never allow that. But a functioning democracy MUST have a citizenry capable of weighing evidence and analyzing arguements, or it is just another form of tyranny.
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. A very good historical view of the schism
I wonder in the future if people will use these physics findings to justify their own religious beliefs (picking and choosing as suits their religion) or if it will spawn the development of new philosophies to come to grips with reality.

"The powerful strain of anti-intellectualism in America ultimately derives from the distrust of reason engendered by religions that see their truth as being threatened by logic and evidence. The truth is, any valid religion must conform to the dictates of reason, and any valid science must serve the spiritual needs of mankind. This split has been disastrous."

Yes that's exactly the problem right there. And they're slowly eroding these seperations in our schools. When we have kids I'll throw a holy shit fit and start whipping out lawyers if any teacher so much as mentions ID.

Now of course I'm going to explain the whole thing to my kids anyways, and they will go to a reform synagogue. I was raised Jewish but it was always explained to me that the Torah was allegory and metaphor as much as it was a sacred document. I could choose for myself whether or not I wanted to believe in God, and that pursuing knowledge is a form of worship. But my parents always stressed that religion = philosophy and science = science. You don't have to reconcile the two anymore than you have to reconcile the movie 2001 A Space Odyssey with riding the school bus. I think that's why I'm not religious or crazy hahaha.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
41. My favorite first book as a child was Bible stories... and I was an atheist.
The rabbi who Bar Mitzvahed me told me I didn't have to believe in god. I don't think he did either. BTW, there are many secular synagogues in the US.

My reading tastes evolved into a love for science fiction and fantasy. I don't read much fiction anymore as I find books on science, math, and politics and history astounding enough. As for religion -- I'll attend any observance where the food is good.

--IMM

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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
44. I may be misreading your post...
"...any valid science must serve the spiritual needs of mankind."
Are you serious or am I missing something?
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. the problem is that kids grow up believing the religious myths and fairy tales are true nt
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
42. I don't think that's necessarily so.
Edited on Sat May-10-08 01:43 PM by IMModerate
All the kids on my block had religious training, yet it was our consensus that god was made up. I remember us discussing it. As I recall, none of the adults professed atheism, but there was a culture of scientific inquiry.

--IMM
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
9. Hah. Religion forced me the other way.
It lit the fires of rationality in me. I think it's worked the same way for my kids -- it has turned them into anti-authoritarian skeptics and heretics.

It's sort of like this guy I know who grew up in a fundamentalist authoritarian household -- but then he discovered women, good beer, and paleontology in college and took off like a damned rocket, bringing home a PhD celebrating Evolution and a wife who totally intimidated his parents with her Science, her Philosophy, and many sketchbooks full of nudes.

I attend Mass on Sunday, and it's probably an irrational thing to do, but of all the damned irrational things we do (for example, worshiping personal automobiles...) that's among the least of them, and besides it is a way of fostering community that's not quite so damned fucking deranged as American Football, Fox News, and Light Beer.
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. It all depends on how it's presented I think
Such as the myth of Santa Claus is probably not driving any kids crazy, but it's presented with a different veracity and doesn't attempt to describe the entire universe.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. "the myth of Santa Claus is probably not driving any kids crazy"
But we admit that it's a lie before the kids even hit double digits.

Surely that helps.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. And Santa doesn't send people to "burn in hell"
...at least he never threatened ME....
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. And I agree with this last sentence
"I attend Mass on Sunday, and it's probably an irrational thing to do, but of all the damned irrational things we do (for example, worshiping personal automobiles...) that's among the least of them, and besides it is a way of fostering community that's not quite so damned fucking deranged as American Football, Fox News, and Light Beer."

But it all depends on how you do it I think :P When you take it on a par with Football, it's not so threatening to mental health hah.
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libodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. I worked for 2 years
at the State Mental Hospital and for a couple of years in a private institution. I know what you are talking about. Some of my sickest patients' delusional ideation revolved around religious themes. One young woman would pace the halls yelling, "I AM the bride of Jesus!"..."My NAME is NOT Larine!" I worked with a young mother of 3 little kids who thought one of the male attendants was Jesus. Another girl, who also had a sister there, came from a single mother who let her lovers use the kids. Her foster family was nutso religious and she turned out more Schizophrenic and troubled than the little sister who was disabled with fetal alcohol syndrome. I don't remember the men as well for some reason.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. If it's not religion, it's something else.
Little green men, secret government programs, etc., etc.

There are all sorts of frameworks people suffering these kinds of mental illnesses latch onto.

People of a scientific, rather than a religious bent, tend to go chasing after Nikola Tesla and such, creating bizarre scientific theories and attributing their own odd behavior to forces other people do not comprehend.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. They get no real cover in those other "groups".
Religious groups reinforce the pathology.
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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
17. Thanks for this
This really resonated with me: "You can't teach children simultaneously that gravity is immutable and that people can levitate if they believe enough in their invisible friends. You cannot wire a brain in two directions at the same time!!!!! To do so makes crazy people!"



Because actually, yeah, you can. The mind plays a game known as cognitive dissonance in order to be able to hold the competing ideas in the same mind. All humans do this to some extent or another (perhaps how much we do it...or rather refuse to do it... is a function of how sane we are).


Apparently, it stopped working for me at around 35 years of age. If I had not then gotten myself out of the cult that is Jehovah's Witnesses, I think cognitive dissonance may very well have ended up killing me.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
20. I was raised as a preacher's kid, and my parents were always quite clear
on the difference between reality and fantasy.

I probably got more "magical thinking" input from television than I did from religious influences.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. hate for you to not have any replies at all.
;-)
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
21. wow- 20 responses and not one priest joke in response to that subject line...?
what's going on...?
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Well, spoony showed up early in the thread...
to remind everyone just how intolerant and anti-religion DU'ers really are.

So that kinda takes the wind out of the priests-fucking-little-boys sails.

Sid
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-08-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Oh yeah?
I'm intolerant of Christians who get in my face and want to "save" me, because they are intolerant of my beliefs.

I get along fine with Christians who mind their own business and don't give me commercials for Jeebus. In fact, I have told Christians before that I appreciate that their faith gives them a value system that works for them, but that they also respect my right to believe in something else.

See?




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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. It's like he has radar for any post even the least bit critical of Christianity.
Eerie, isn't it?
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. He must be...
omnipotent!

What?

It could be true....!
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. You can join your fellow apostates
downthread a bit.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #31
45. Apostate though I may be...
I'm not nearly in the same league as you and Evoman.

I'll gladly laugh from the sidelines, tho :hi:

Sid
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Why did the priest go to the clothings sale?
Because he heard little boys pants were half off.

There you go. Adapted from a classic Michael Jackson joke.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Knock Knock
Who's there?

Little Boy Blue?

Little Boy Blue who?

His priest.




Also adapted from a Michael Jackson joke.

Next?
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. What do priests consider a "Perfect Ten"?
Two five year olds.

Another MJ joke, adapted.

Challenge?
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. How do you know when a priest is having a party?
There are a bunch of tricycles in front of the rectory.

Ball's in your court, so to speak.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Q: Have you heard about the Vatican's New Book?
It is called, "The In's and Out's of Child Rearing"
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Why did the priest google Boyz-2-Men?
Edited on Fri May-09-08 01:55 PM by Goblinmonger
He thought it was a delivery service.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. What's a priests favourite part of a hockey game?
Edited on Fri May-09-08 02:37 PM by Evoman
A. Before the First Period
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Why was the priest at KMart?
He heard that boy's pants were half off.
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-10-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. You totally lose....that was too much like my first one. I will finish with the worst priest joke.
Ever.

What is the difference between a Priest and acne?

Acne waits until you're 13 before it comes on your face.
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crawfish Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-09-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
38. I'd be more likely to buy that...
If I didn't know so many non-Christians who had the same problems. I think most people have trouble with rational, logical thinking; it's just that the religious are such a large overall percentage it seems otherwise.
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