Why Bother to Pray?

[Midwest_Doc]

The Bible says: “I the LORD do not change." - Malachi 3:6
"Father of the heavenly lights does not change like shifting shadows.” - James 1:17
“God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind." - Numbers 23:19

What is the value of praying for anything if the decision has already been made, and is not subject to change?

[jwirr]

1. I am assuming that we are not praying for God to be different. It is

a personal statement not a statement regarding the world in general.

[BlooInBloo]

2. The mixture of religion and rationality is a neverending source of amusement....

The only real option is to do what Kant did, the Simpsons presentation being: Prayer has no place in school, just like facts have no place within organized religion.

[papau]

3. Free will means "the decision" is not already made - and even if it is, one thanks God for what

little one has - indeed for life itself.

[uberllama42]

6. So God doesn't actually know what will happen beforehand?

I thought God was supposed to be omniscient. Oops.

[Occam Bandage]

7. The Bible is very clear that God knows exactly what will happen beforehand. Isaiah 46:10.

I am God--and there is none like me--declaring the end from the beginning.

The notion of free will is not necessarily incompatible with the notion of omniscience. God, existing outside of the confines of space-time, may be aware of all your actions from birth to death. However, that does not necessarily mean that God has in any way influenced or decided those actions.

[Occam Bandage]

4. Jesus agrees, and specifically addressed that in Matthew 6:5-9.

(NKJV)

And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.


Prayer for Jesus is more about establishing a personal, loving, and subservient relationship with God; his prayer is more a reminder of the power of God, the necessity of forgiveness, and the faith that God will provide. There is no point in asking for anything in particular, according to Jesus, since God is already aware of what you need and what you want.

[Dorian Gray]

5. Prayer doesn't have to be

about "getting something." (Petitionary.)

It can be meditative and thankful, instead. Contemplative.

[patriotvoice]

9. Exactly.

I cannot stomach petition prayer, especially from Christians: Occam Bandage pointed out Matthew 6:5-9, which states precisely that God knows our needs and that we will not be heard "for our many words." If our children are dying, God knows we need comfort, solace, and to grieve. We should be praying Thanks for all the good times; indeed, thanks for the time at all.

[varkam]

10. Seconded. eom

[anonymous171]

8. Personal Relationship with God. nt

[knitter4democracy]

11. Even if it doesn't change, we do.

I find prayer to be a time of finding out what I'm really upset about underneath it all and a way to bring peace to the situation, not of asking a big sky daddy for presents.

[PassingFair]

12. Magical powers!

A woman at work told me that she
was responsible for her friend
getting a job....

because she PRAYED for her to
find one!!

SUPER POWERS!!!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. Prayer isn't about making God your personal errand boy

It's about tapping into a source of spiritual strength. The great mystics agree on that.

[rug]

14. Foreknowledge is not predestination.

[cyborg_jim]

15. It is if you created the thing you know about

[rug]

16. If you created it, it's in the past not the future.

Past knowledge is neither foreknowledge nor predestination.

[cyborg_jim]

17. Huh?

If I create something it's in the past? What, so if I create a painting it disappears into a puff of backwards-time never to be seen in the future?

When something is created we generally expect it to have a future existence. Yes?

[rug]

18. That's true but just because you created it doesn't mean you had to create it in the first place.

The fact that it does exist - and will exist - doesn't mean it had to exist.

[cyborg_jim]

19. I don't really see how that is relevant at all

[Occam Bandage]

20. Not necessarily.

Suppose God exists outside the universe. He therefore exists outside of time as well as space. Give him no other 'powers,' save the ability to see all dimensions. Does that immediately invalidate free will? I would say no. You can still act freely; I would think your will should not be impacted in any way whatsoever by an observer that is not in the universe.

Now then consider that God would be able to, at once, see the whole sum of the universe across all dimensions--including time. He therefore is able to know exactly what you have done before and after you have done it, because the concept of "before" and "after" do not apply to God, as those are terms that are entirely bound by our universe. Discussing whether God is aware of your actions before or after you act makes no more sense than discussing whether God is "above" or "below" you when you act.

[cyborg_jim]

21. This is not in respect to what I said.

There is no act of creation. The divine observer has no ability to dictate anything that occurs.

[Occam Bandage]

22. Sure it is. It in no meaningful way alters the situation

if the divine observer was also the first cause of this particular universe, nor does it alter the situation if He meddled with the universe from time to time (excepting of course those who were subjected to the meddling).

I find the notion of a meddling God to be theologically inconsistent with perfection (a mechanic whose engine would only run if he held the air intake filter in place with one hand and plugged a leaky fuel line with another wouldn't be considered a very good mechanic) but since many people believe in divine intervention, I figured I'd add it to the mix.

[cyborg_jim]

23. The "first mover" renders god an impotent button pusher.

"Please press any key to begin universe".

[Occam Bandage]

25. Impotent? I'd disagree on several counts.

Claiming a God as first cause does not preclude that same God from later meddling with His creation. If it isn't right (say, if it is simply impossible to get the desired outcome without adjusting things here and there), there's no reason to think a prime creator God couldn't adjust His creation.

Moreover, it is hardly "impotent" for that God to encode everything He wants in His universe within that first singularity. A good designer is an elegant one.

[cyborg_jim]

26. Thank you

Moreover, it is hardly "impotent" for that God to encode everything He wants in His universe within that first singularity.

You seem to know a lot about what this god wants.

[Igel]

24. Here's a logical distinction.

Big traits and small decisions; strategy and tactics.

Moses asked God not to destroy the children of Israel, interceding on behalf of them. Quote Numbers, you really have to quote that, too.

In the NT and much of traditional Xianity, Jesus intercedes. What is "intercession", if not preventing a punishment or harsh treatment that was going to follow as a matter of course? It's getting the Father to change his mind--not about what he is, or what is right, but about when to stop being patient. Nothing crucial, nothing strategic involved.

In both cases there's a tension between mercy/forgiveness and righteousness; both are good, and where to draw the line is sometimes negotiable. Otherwise, why pray for those that hate you, why pray for forgiveness, why would Jesus ask the Father to forgive his executioners if he was already going to do these things just as a matter of course?

Many don't like Paul, but the idea of petitioning God repeats there: You have not, because you don't ask. I know that my kid will want lunch, I even know what he'll want; but often I wait for him to ask (and require that he not chant, "Food! food! food!" or say, "I'm thirsty!"). Part is just my being lazy; part is also a desire for him to be grateful, part is wanting him to actually take charge of making sure that he gets what he needs, and much is wanting him to not assume that everybody will always satisfy his needs just because he has them.