People burned to death by God

[Ian David]

People burned to death by God

In a previous post, I asked the question: Is it wrong to burn people to death? From the comments, it is clear that the answer depends upon whether you are a Bible-believer or not. So far no believer has answered the question, whereas every non-believer has answered clearly: It is wrong always and everywhere to burn to death anyone for any reason.

Of course there is a reason believers refuse the answer the question: God likes burning people to death. He sees nothing wrong with it. In fact, he does it himself sometimes. Here are a few examples from the Bible.

1. Aaron's sons were caught burning incense without a license, so God burned them to death. (Aaron, the lousy father that he was, just watched and said nothing.)

And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. Leviticus 10:1-2

2. The Israelites complained (the Bible doesn't say about what) and God heard it (he had his hearing aid on), so he burned them to death. (What else would any self-respecting God do?).

And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp." Numbers 11:1

More:
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2008/05/people-god-burned-to-death-in-bible.html

[loveable liberal]

1. It occurred to me that you need nerve's and a brain to feel pain...

so how is it again that being sent to hell is a painful experience? Oh and burning people is bad.

[roguevalley]

28. IMHO, the Bible reflects the attempt of people 2000 years ago to

explain the events that they encountered in their lives. Since people were ruled by their devotion to such belief systems, more so and more intensely then than now and had no science to give an alternative explanation, they used their own language to tell the tale. Given that, I would say it was never good, never allowed. I don't believe that the Bible people and their tribal god, YHWH, express the will of the creator that I believe exists in love. I believe they express the will of a culture and viewpoint that is no longer valid.

Burning people was wrong in the past and its wrong now. All souls deserve peace and respect. Even the fuckers. ;) I am not ruled by the belief system about the God that I love as espoused in 2400 BC.

[Occam Bandage]

2. A rather unconvincing line of attack, I'm afraid.

Most mainstream Christians see the Old Testament as a mixture of historical metaphor, allegory, and morality play. They'll simply take that as evidence of the harsh, rugged mindset that early Hebrews possessed.

Fundamentalist Christians believe that God's mercy and love for those who accept him are only matched by the ferocity of his punishment of those who reject him. They'd simply nod and go, yeah, don't fuck with God.

[Ian David]

3. That's what Revelation is for? n/t

[Ian David]

4. Let's start with the first book of the new testament... Matthew....

Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12 http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/3.html#10

Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19 http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/7.html#19

Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/13.html#41

Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/18.html#8

Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/25.html#41



And that's just the punishments dealing with burning and fire.

Need I continue to the book or Mark?

Sure, why not...

# Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12

# Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave. 5:12-13

# Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11

# Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) 7:9-10

# If you're ashamed of Jesus, he'll be ashamed of you. (And you'll go straight to hell.) 8:38

# Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. 9:43-49

# Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don't will be damned. 16:16

More:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/cr_list.html

[Occam Bandage]

6. Yep. Fundamentalists see a God with both infinite mercy and punishment.

Mainstreamers see in the warnings of Jesus perhaps allegory, perhaps understood dramatic reference (translated earnestly by those of foreign cultures), perhaps warning to the simpler people of the first century AD (depending on whether they believe in continuous revelation or not), or perhaps they believe that Hell is necessary for righteousness to exist.

Either way, it's just not really a convincing gap in the theology.

[knitter4democracy]

13. The fire refers to hell, though.

Not to man's judgement of other men, capital punishment, which is what your OP seems to refer to instead.

[Smarmie Doofus]

7. Curious though, that the Christian scriptures carry no account....

>>>>Most mainstream Christians see the Old Testament as a mixture of historical metaphor, allegory, and morality play. They'll simply take that as evidence of the harsh, rugged mindset that early Hebrews possessed.>>>


... far as I know anyway... of Jesus *explicitly* condemning burning to death and repudiating the "allegorical" OT God who countenances... indeed, *revels* in..... same.

Correct me if I'm wrong. ( I don't want to be burned for theological error.)

[Ian David]

8. You mean Jesus never personally set anyone on fire? Just supposedly delegated it the next generation

[Smarmie Doofus]

16. No, you misunderstand. I was questioning the veneration...

.... and in fact, WORSHIP, of the historical Jesus by the mainline Christian churches when there exists no record in the Christian scriptures of Jesus explicity REJECTING death by fire as prescribed in the OT.

Someone worthy of such veneration and worship would surely have spoken out against this sort of barbarism. Yet nothing of the sort is recorded in the NT .

[Occam Bandage]

18. But you see, Jesus never explicitly rejected Old Testament law, except when demonstrating

that it was contradictory, superfluous, or unnecessary. Jesus claimed that anyone who looked at another with anger was guilty of murder in his heart, and that anyone who sentenced another to death for sin was a hypocrite before God. Speaking out against a particular punishment would have been both redundant and unnecessarily inflammatory, if you'll forgive the pun.

[Smarmie Doofus]

24. Why, on Earth, not?

>>>But you see, Jesus never explicitly rejected Old Testament law, except when demonstrating
that it was contradictory, superfluous, or unnecessary. >>>>

[Ian David]

21. I don't find either god nor Jesus worthy of worship, even if all written about them were true. n/t

[Smarmie Doofus]

25. Interesting. I don't believe/disbelieve in god.... as one can't know what one can't know.

Therefore the idea of 'worship' is a non-starter for me, anyway.

Jesus... the Jesus that is handed down thru the Christian scriptures and therefore may be be something different entirely from the historical Jesus ( and probably IS).... may arguably be worthy of worthy of respect,veneration and emulation.

He's unworthy of *worship* because we don't profitably relate to other humans with "worship".

[Ian David]

26. "He's unworthy of *worship* because we don't profitably relate to other humans with "worship"."

Don't tell that to my wife.

[The Night Owl]

30. I find Jesus Christ to be unworthy of worship precisely because of what is written about him. {EOM}

[Manifestor_of_Light]

5. Don't forget John Calvin's festive 1553 barbecue.

John Calvin lured Michael Servetus to Geneva in 1553 and burned him at the stake because he was anti-infant baptism, anti-Trinitarian and did not believe in original sin. Michael Servetus is considered to be the first Unitarian and many Unitarian churches have rooms or groups named after him.


Servetus was a doctor and was the first doctor to describe the oxygenation of blood through the lungs, in 1533.

Servetus had John Calvin, Martin Luther and the Catholic Inquisition all hunting him. His last words were "O Jesus Son of the Living God, have pity on me!".

[struggle4progress]

17. Perhaps that fact merely means certain self-righteous jackasses were in control

in Geneva at the time

[On the Road]

9. The Answer Depends Not Necessarily on Whether You are a Bible Believer

but on whether you are God.

[Meshuga]

10. Like Lewis Black says

God mellowed out a little bit after having a kid. :-)

[Dorian Gray]

11. Never hear that Lewis Blackism

before, but it's really funny!

[Meshuga]

14. It is paraphrased...

from his HBO special. :-) It can be found somewhere in this 11 minute clip:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3200622655219535736&q=lewis+black+judaism&ei=BsFZSM3lGYyArgK19Zz2Dg&hl=en

[knitter4democracy]

12. I'm against capital punishment, and it's because of my Christian faith.

I look to the Two Greatest Commandments: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. When Jesus was asked who is our neighbor, He responded with the parable of the Good Samaritan (and Samaritans were reviled and hated even more than the Romans by most Jews in that time).

He told us to visit those who are sick or in prison, He told us to "judge not, lest so shall ye be judged," and, in the Seven Woes, made it quite clear just how much He hated religious hypocrisy, especially when it hurt others.

Capital punishment goes against mercy, which is what we're supposed to do as Christians and what we're supposed to pray for ourselves. Just as Christians fought to get rid of slavery, even though there are many pro-slavery verses in the Bible and even an entire epistle written to a slave in the NT, I agree with the Christians fighting to get rid of capital punishment.

[heidler1]

20. I'm against capital punishment because as a Atheist I believe that I am Earth bound.

There being no Heaven nor Hell, but just this life here on Earth, so we should try to make this life as great as possible for everyone thus making it great for our selves.

[knitter4democracy]

22. That makes a lot of sense.

That's my dad's position, though he makes exceptions for really horrible criminals, and I just can't, personally. Even still, I like your reasoning--it makes a lot of sense. :)

[heidler1]

23. Part of my thinking on this is yes some people deserve to die, but

when society puts some one to death more often than not all we prove is that we approve of killing to solve problems. So then the individual is more apt to like wise kill to solve his/her problems, too. Another problem with killing is induced hate to the sympathizers. So the feud goes on and on.

[MedleyMisty]

27. I'm an atheist, and I'm against it because it's wrong

When I read threads about it on here, the hatred and the vengeance and the dehumanization give me chills.

It's just always seemed fairly obvious to me that taking the life of another living being for no purpose and in a painful way is wrong - I can understand the food chain. And as far as the position of humans on the food chain is concerned, I'm okay with swiftly and painlessly killing a member of another species, paying respect to its life and thanking it for giving it up for you, and using all of the bits.

But causing so much psychological pain and sometimes physical pain to another human and his or her family and friends....it's just wrong.

I was so confused when I got online and began reading debates about stuff like this - like I never knew that it was an either/or thing for so many people and that they couldn't feel empathy and compassion for both the victim and the criminal - and really I don't think they can feel empathy and compassion at all because what they say they feel for the victims is so saccharine and American pie and flag waving and this is what the TV told me to say. It seems like it's just a sugary front for where the real emotion and feeling is - in devising horrible tortures for the criminals, in wishing them torment in hell, in eagerly anticipating their deaths.

My misanthropy has been growing ever since I first got net access and started reading what was really behind other people's eyes - I find myself beginning to dehumanize others because I can't see anything human about them.

[The Night Owl]

29. The Christian concept of eternal punishment in the afterlife precludes Christians from...

...claiming that their God is merciful. Only a maleficent God would allow punishment to go on for eternity.

[struggle4progress]

15. If you are concerned about people being burned, there are many

many modern instances to which you can devote your energies, as you can easily verify:

http://images.google.com/images?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&q=burned%20Iraqi&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

[Occam Bandage]

19. No, we'd much rather just feign outrage over allegory.