Are the tenets of Christianity abusive to children, and adults? Discuss.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

“I am now convinced that children should not be subjected to the frightfulness of the Christian religion . . . If the concept of a father who plots to have his own son put to death is presented to children as beautiful and as worthy of society's admiration, what types of human behavior can be presented to them as reprehensible?”

—Ruth Hurmence Green,
Preface of Born Again Skeptic's Guide to the Bible

I think Christianity is abusive to EVERYONE because we are all told we are worthless because we are human due to Original Sin. I think Original Sin is a con job. I left Christianity because I developed too much self-respect to take all that tearing down seriously. It really tears down a lot of people and causes them to suffer from guilt for things they did not do.

I am not perfect. I think most of us do the best we can. Humans are asking questions and figuring out how to deal with life. We don't need some preacher telling us that God the Cop is watching us and judging us for being human.


That said, I celebrate a secular Christmas because I enjoy it.

[Common Sense Party]

1. Not everybody views Original Sin in the same way.

I disagree that "most of us do the best we can." I think many of us live far, far below our potential.

Some are able to make great strides toward reaching that potential without religion. Great for them. Some of us are, perhaps, weaker and we NEED the help we get from a higher power.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

3. Being told you are worthless and sinful without JC doesn't help you dream.

That sort of blanket criticism does not help anyone reach their potential.

The whole religious dynamic where the minister tells you what to think, and tells you whether you are a good person or not, is disempowering. The idea that we have to submit to a mean, angry, judgmental god is disempowering.

I don't give away my personal power to ANY authority figure.

[Common Sense Party]

4. You're making a mistake by believing that ALL Christian

denominations/churches/practitioners espouse exactly the same beliefs that you have apparently run into.

But you are free to make broad, blanket assumptions if you like.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

7. Do not ALL Christians believe in Original Sin, may I ask?

Do not All Christians believe in Original Sin?

If one does not believe that humans are inherently sinful because of Eve's fall in the Garden of Eden, then one does not need the substitutionary atonement of the death of Jesus.

Is that not correct?

Original Sin is the starting premise of Christianity. If you are not inherently sinful because you are human, then you don't need the substitutionary atonement of Jesus.

To me it's a fake premise which posits the necessity for becoming a Christian and accepting Jesus to remove your "sin".

It's like telling everyone that they need to go buy a green shirt because only people who have a green shirt will get into Heaven.

[earthlover]

28. I know you may find this hard to fit into your preconceived notion....

but there are Christians who don't even believe in original sin as you conceive it to be!

And...guess what!....a lot of Christians no longer think eating shellfish is an abomination! I know you will find this hard to believe too! And not every Christian is a polygamist, sexist, or believes a woman is to be subservient to her husband.

There are some Christians who believe that Jesus wanted to teach us to become more like god. As in ye as as god. To uplift our potential, be more of what we can be.

But if you wish to believe all Christians believe the same thing, consider you are acting like those who think all non-Christians or non-believers believe the same thing.

Seems to me thinking in broad strokes is fallacious. And dangerous.

[DailyGrind51]

40. Thank you!

Strange, but I always thought that those who stereotyped others' beliefs were bigots, didn't you?

[skepticscott]

52. Bad analogy

since eating shellfish is not fundamental to anyone's concept of Christianity, while the role of Jesus in saving the world from sin kind of is. And for those cherry-picking Christians who don't believe in original sin or the salvation from it given by Jesus' death and resurrection, or in anything from the Bible except what makes them feel warm and fuzzy, on what rational basis do they decide what parts are historically, factually true, or the real words of God/Jesus, and what parts aren't? And if you can just arbitrarily decide all that for yourselves, why do you even need to call it a religion?

[Lost-in-FL]

82. ...

:thumbsup:

[Goblinmonger]

88. So give me a mainstream western Christian sect

other than Church of Christ (which I would argue is not a mainstream sect) that doesn't believe in original sin. Luther, Calvin, Wesley all belived in and taught the nasty, dirty nature of original sin. OK, the Mormons don't buy it, but many here on DU will tell me they aren't even Christian. I understand fully that Eastern Orthodoxy doesn't teach that, but they certainly aren't the mainstream Christian religion in the US.

[JerseygirlCT]

90. Yes

well said.

[Deep13]

114. The central doctrine of Christianity...

...is that we are born damned and that only JC's intervention and blood sacrifice prevents that from happening. I'm sorry if that does not fit into your preconceived notion of what Christianity is. I know a lot of people have convinced themselves that it means something else. Nevertheless, the orthodox view which is followed by nearly all modern churches is what I described. Believers who disagree only do so because there is no danger of inquisators knocking on their door at 3:00 a.m.

[knitter4democracy]

51. Nope. Not all of us believe in the Western version of the concept.

We Eastern Orthodox have a different version of that particular bit of theology. We believe that humans are born good and only sin because it's so easy to do in this fallen Creation.

[davidinalameda]

59. I don't believe in original sin

baptism in my church is a sign of the child or the adult becoming a member of the community

but yes, we are all sinners

are sinners evil horrible people that are going to burn in the fires of hell-I'm sure some of them are but guess what-God didn't make us perfect and I believe that God doesn't expect us to be perfect

[Lydia Leftcoast]

63. I've always seen Original Sin as the theological version of the statement

"Nobody's perfect." We do things we know we shouldn't do, and we fail to do things that we know we should do.

I'm 58 years old and have never met a perfect person. Have you?

[Silent3]

48. "I don't give away my personal power to ANY authority figure."

I'm no big fan of religion, and can even agree to a limited extent with your OP, but you sound way too hung up on the "personal power" thing.

As a social creature, and as, I would presume, a person who believes in a democratic form of government, you have to yield some power to others. I have no patience for limitations of person power based on invisible sky daddies, but your tone suggests to me that you view any encroachment on your "personal power" as an evil attempt to undermine to repress you that must be resisted.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

118. There is a difference between following the laws and social norms.

We all have to follow the laws to live together. I understand that quite well. I have a Doctor of Jurisprudence degree (standard law degree).

I don't have to hang out with people whose personal philosophy I disagree with.

And I know about simple manners and politeness.

That is different from religious beliefs and control by appeals to authority (God or ministers).

[davidinalameda]

58. I've never heard my minister say anyone was worthless and sinful

maybe you're listening to the wrong preachers

[ZombieHorde]

5. Although I have a distaste for common sense, I like your post.

Disclaimer: I am really drunk.

[ananda]

2. No. People are.

nt

[Manifestor_of_Light]

11. It's the people, and not the words they utter?

I don't think you can separate the people from the words they utter, whether they help people or hurt them.


Check this out:
www.wordscanheal.org


A website for people who want to repair the world (Tikkun Olam in Hebrew.)

[Sanctified]

6. Not exactly sure how many Christians suffer with guilt from Original Sin.

I think most Christians actually suffer from the guilt of the sins they have personally committed, I certainly don't stress over Original Sin, I do try to keep from sinning though.

[Oak2004]

8. The problem with generalizing about everything that calls itself Christian is that Christianity

is not one thing. It has enormous theological diversity. Such generalizations remind me of a lot of arguments against "religion" and for "atheism". I smile, because I often agree with every last point made-- and I'm no an atheist. Whoever constructed the argument didn't grasp the depth and breadth of the class of ideas they took aim at.

Some interpretations of Christianity are indeed abusive. Those abusive forms are altogether too common. But do you grasp that not all Christianity is literal? Do you know that not all persons who identify as Christians believe in a supernatural Jesus? Do you know at least one interpretation of "original sin" reads it as the approximate equivalent of the "ignorance" of Buddhism, and not the atavistic "sins of the fathers" crap? Do you grasp that Do you grasp that modern Christianity at its best is an intellectually sophisticated, multilayered, nuanced way of seeing and interpreting and making the most of our existence?

I'm not a Christian. But I do know there's much to the better forms of Christianity.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

9. Every church I have ever gone to subscribes to the standard tenets.

Original Sin, substitutionary atonement, the holy trinity.


I'm talking about what you hear in a normal church, not esoteric forms that are better suited for the academic types. Even if they don't believe in the rapture or the apocalypse, or that the bible is literal, the mainstream churches believe in the above three, as explained in The Apostles' Creed.

[eShirl]

24. "what you hear in a normal church, not esoteric forms that are better suited for the academic types"

Wow.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

60. Why are you shocked?

I mean the doctrines people hear in church. The mainstream Protestant and Catholic stuff.

Not the stuff Elaine Pagels writes about, which is linguistic and historical study. I took two religion courses in college from a professor (D.Div. from Princeton) who taught us about such things as J,E,D and P sources and textual analysis.

[Sandrine for you]

106. The doctrine people hear in church change because we

decide that religion should not take a big part of our life and our society.

I come from a country were not so long ago the priest where telling to woman that they must have sexual relation with their husband or burn in hell.

[JerseygirlCT]

91. What is it you're calling a "normal church"? nt

[Ghost Dog]

10. I don't recall finding the 'original sin' nor the 'son-killing'

nor plenty of other 'wrathful, vengeful father' stuff in the (essentially Christian) New Testament (Gospels); these, I think, are from the (essentially Talmudic) Old Testament.

[Sandrine for you]

107. Yes and my school teach me that "son-illing" stuf, just 20 years ago

[BeatleBoot]

12. The Green Quote is So Very Shallow.

Whether one is a Christian or not, the quote is so simplistic.

Can we make further simplistic interpretations of other religions?

Let's!

Why would the supreme being Krishna speak with Arjuna before the Kurukshetra war in the Bhagavad Gita?

Doesn't war go against all that is peace?

Look, bub, I ain't no expert in any religion, but the quote you posted doesn't do the philosophy any justice from the get-go.

Religion is deeper than that and it transcends reason.

And I just made a statement rooted in reason.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

13. Willingness to kill your son Isaac is worthy of praise?

Abraham is praised because he will do what God tells him to do, even if God tells him to murder his only son.

Now that is scary. Very scary.

That story tells me that obedience to God is more important than not murdering your own child.

That is sick. That is the kind of unquestioning obedience to authority that is fascism. See the Stanley Milgram experiments on obedience to authority.


And there are some pretty mean things in the New Testament too. Jesus was not always a nice guy. "I come not in peace but with a sword. I have come to set the daughter in law against the mother in law....."??????

Just a few examples from The Gospel According to John:

# As an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), God had his own son tortured and killed. 3:16

# People are damned or saved depending only on what they believe. 3:18, 36

# The "wrath of God" is on all unbelievers. 3:36

# Jesus believes people are crippled by God as a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." 5:14

# Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. 15:6

# Jesus says we must eat his flesh and drink his blood if we want to have eternal life. This idea was just too gross for "many of his disciples" and "walked no more with him." 6:53-66


:wtf:

I think anybody who wants to use the NT as a guide to living their life, should read The Sermon on the Mount and "The greatest of the commandments" and ignore the rest of it.


The Koran has a lot of violent passages that predict death to unbelievers.

I do not like the Abrahamic religions. They are entirely too primitive for the 21st century. I see no reason why we should venerate the people who are itinerant goatherders of 2,000 years ago who knew nothing of technology or science. They thought mental illness was caused by demons. They thought the earth was flat. They thought many things that science has shown are wrong. We have a much better understanding of human nature now. And there are plenty of other systems of morality that are better and don't have conflicts.

[BeatleBoot]

14. It's a Good Thing

That the big guy/gal gave us all a brain to use.

Otherwise, we might go through life taking everything literally.

I love my brain.

I use it.

It's a good thing.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

15. Yes indeed.

I use mine to discriminate between ideas and practices that will help me understand other people, understand my place in the world, understand what I should be doing in this life that is the best for me and for others.


That's why I'm a secular humanist. I like to do things on a rational basis, not because "God said so".

[BeatleBoot]

16. Fantastic!

Now use your head and be more tolerant of those who don't think like you do.

It's the first step towards understanding.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

17. I've tried to be tolerant of them.

Now I just avoid them, because we cannot have discussions about religion.

[merwin]

20. "we cannot have discussions", or "I cannot have discussions".

By the way you phrase your comments and posts, you seem to be coming off as aggressive. And your "I've tried to be tolerant of them" statement strikes me as very ignorant, broad brushed, bigoted statement.

For example... take two very different radio hosts on Air America. There's Randi Rhodes, who when approached with an angry right wing fanatic is always on the offensive, looks for fights, and often speaks without hearing the other side out (don't get me wrong, I love her, but she does have some issues with that). Then there's Thom Hartmann, who can get the same kind of hostile right wing fanatic to actually talk rationally and have a civil discussion about their viewpoints... and even maybe come to the conclusion to agree to disagree.

If you start an intellectual discussion with a closed mind and a set conclusion, you will gain nothing and come out ultimately frustrated.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

25. I've had these discussions.

They invite me to their church, and then look stunned when I refuse to go.

I just say "No I'm not interested".

One woman asked me to go to her church. I told her I was a Unitarian and explained that Unitarians discuss ideas from all moral systems and religions, and they can disagree.
Then she asked me again.
I stood there, saying nothing. She seemed to be stunned.


Or they tell me to believe, regardless of whether I believe in their faith or not. They act like I am insulting them by politely disagreeing with them.


Most of them (not all) will not have a discussion. They just can't imagine anyone believing something other than what they do.

[merwin]

18. One can embrace both. They are not mutually exclusive.

I am a Christian, and do things on a rational basis as well, not because "God said so". Much of the stories in the Bible are meant to be teaching tools, not to be taken literally. With reason, those aren't too hard to pick out.

A Christian can also believe in both evolution and divine creation. Is it so hard to believe that God created evolution? Maybe 7 days doesn't actually mean 7 days. The whole creation thing in Genesis isn't very heavy on the specifics and details, leaving us to use reasoning.

Maybe you should open your mind to the fact that not every Christian is a mindless robot who wants a theocracy.

[skepticscott]

54. Oh?

And what exactly are your criteria for deciding which parts of the Bible are factually and historically true? What are your criteria for deciding whether God really said something that the Bible records him as having said or whether someone just made it up later, and if he did say it, whether he was just kidding or whether we should take it seriously? And if it's true that, "With reason, those aren't too hard to pick out", are the people who have been disagreeing about such things for centuries devoid of reason and rationality, compared to you, who finds it all simple and obvious?

[nomorenomore08]

21. "I have come to set the daughter in law against the mother in law."

I don't think you need J.C.'s help for that one...

:hide:

[struggle4progress]

115. Like the other fundamentalists, you demand others interpret the texts as you do. But why?

You are free to ignore the texts if you dislike them but this is not enough for you: you insist others must read into the texts the same meanings you read into them, so that you can insist they must dislike the texts based on your reading of the texts

You claim, for example, that John 3:16 tell us "G-d had his own son tortured and killed" but the text actually says nothing about killing or torture

Here is a nice quote from John: And the Light still shines in the darkness; and the darkness has never understood it

[Silent3]

47. "Religion is deeper than that and it transcends reason."

I'd rather say that religion is more baroque, inconsistent, and often self-contradictory than the OP's take on Christianity, rather than say the problem is a matter of religion being "deeper". I'd also rather say that religion evades or often runs contrary to reason than say that it "transcends" reason.

[silverojo]

19. I ditched Christianity a long time ago

I'm much happier now as a Wiccan solitary practitioner. None of that original sin, God portrayed as a stern monster, no "homosexuality is a sin"...and women have equal status to men.

Refreshing, isn't it?

[nomorenomore08]

22. Depends on what brand of Christianity, but as a general statement I can agree with it.

In fact, I would argue that the "kinder, gentler" modern forms of Christianity (i.e. moderate and liberal denominations) so despised by fundamentalists, have that aspect precise *because* their members are more secular, and therefore less dogmatic. So I don't think everyone in the world has to be a "secular humanist," as you label yourself, but having a higher proportion of such people would certainly help.

[mr blur]

23. Abusive, deluded AND insulting.

What can be gained from subjecting anyone to a degrading and desperate fantasy? If humanity is doomed it's religion that will do it - and we'll deserve everything we get for going along with such drivel.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

26. I refuse to be degraded.

I have more self esteem than that.

I don't need some preacher telling me what to think.

[DainBramaged]

27. I think attacking religion is abusive. It's the PERSON that is abusive not religion

When will you people get it.


Oh and if you think "the preacher" is wrong, GET OUT OF THE PEW and go to another church. Oh wait, you don't go to church, this is just another hatred of religion thread.

[Fumesucker]

29. True to a point, but it religion which gives the abuse cover...

If Rick Warren were not a well known minister he would never be invited on the inaugural stage, it is the veneer of religion on his shopworn bigotry which gives him cover for his bigoted positions.

Respect is not something automatically deserved by anything, including religions, it must be earned.

We give far too much automatic respect in America to religious positions which have done anything but earn respect.

The problem with according scripture and those who follow it automatic respect is that scripture is the perfect Rorschach test, what you bring to scripture you almost always take away. If you are a kind and gentle person you will find scripture to reinforce those feelings in your heart, conversely if you are an angry and vengeful person you will find scripture to support those feelings too.

God said Abraham kill me a son
Abe said man you must be putting me on
God said no
Abe said what
God said you can do what you want Abe but
next time you see me coming man you better run
Abe said where you want this killing done?
God said out on Highwy sixty one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8siLZ4zNbY

Fumesucker, who lives entirely too damn close to Hwy 61

[DainBramaged]

31. This thread isn't about Rick Warren, this is about religion in general

Those of us with half a brain realize that after 2008 years, religion as proscribed in the Bible is not perfect, and it is simply a guidebook with some great stories that teaches us that we are imperfect, and that we can never achieve perfection, but should try to live our lives in His image as best we can and work to help not harm. Those who blame religion for all of the problems we face forget that we live among men, not Gods. Regarding respect to religious position, do as so many of us who have been there do, find a place where YOU the person are respected for whom you are, not for the religion you practice. The United Church of Christ is not typical of your Rorschach test, but that's OK, Rick Warren has become the face of religion here at DU, and so many who claim to be intelligent can't see past his bullshit and blame Religion and not the man.

[Fumesucker]

33. Warren is an example of religious positions being automatically accorded respect..

I'm illustrating a general principle with a specific example.

Without his religion Warren would be powerless rather than powerful.

And then I used another specific example taken straight from scripture although Bobby Dylan embellished it a touch.

If anyone but God had told Abraham to kill his son, Abe would have told them to get off, not carted his son to Hwy 61.

It may not be the fault of religion itself but it certainly is a flaw in those who follow religions that leads them to accord respect to positions that have not earned respect merely because scripture is used to support those positions.

Edited for speling.

[DainBramaged]

35. Again, Rick Warren, Rick Warren, Rick Warren.

Religion or the practice of religion doesn't begin and end with Rick Warren. But here on DU, Rick Warren is the face of religion, and who is giving him respect? Not here. Not even among his Fundofascist followers because he is speaking at "The One's" inaugural.

I have to go to work. I am tired of the bashing of religion on DU. I take it personally, more so than the attacks on my Union. Because religion on DU is a scapegoat, nothing more.

[Fumesucker]

37. Try being an atheist in the South if you think being religious on DU is tough..

To feel the same way the money in your pocket would have to say "There Is No God" and there could be no openly religious politicians.

[Ex Lurker]

32. If it wasn't for religion, they'd find some other excuse

people are the problem. I'm non religious, but religion, and Christianity in particular, gets treated like a pinata around here, and it's a little tiresome.

[Fumesucker]

39. My point being though..

That prejudice by the religious based on their interpretation of religion is accorded special automatic respect in American society.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

64. Maoist China was more puritanical than any contemporary Western society

:shrug:

[Common Sense Party]

44. Good post....except

They will NEVER get it. No point in asking "when".

[skepticscott]

53. People come and go

but for some reason, religion has continued in the same vein of hatred, conflict, bigotry and violence all through its history, no matter who's in charge and who's part of the flock. Strange, that.

[varkam]

62. So it's better if we attack people instead of ideas?

And since one does a person have to be a member of that group in order to criticize what that group does? I guess you can't be critical of the KKK.

Oh wait, this is just another "Halp! I'm being persecuted because someone posted a message to a forum that I chose to read!" post.

[izzie]

30. I think the Church father's needed that part of it.

After all they did control our world for many years that way.

[madrchsod]

34. no---- christ would or is appalled by what is done in his name

it is man who have bastardize christ`s teaching to satisfy their perversities.

[DainBramaged]

36. Amen

[Deja Q]

42. Amen^2

[Lost-in-FL]

83. The problem is that...

christ didn't left any of his teachings in written form and someone (from the apostles to the human "copier machines of the era") could have contaminated christ's teachings with their own absurdity and entitlement to say things on behalf of someone who died thousands of years ago because it sounds convenient. What gets me about religion is how easy it is for people to put their own words in christ's mouth.

So, did god created us or we created god?

[Waiting For Everyman]

38. So it isn't abusive to call someone else's beliefs abusive?

That seems rather unenlightened to me.

[Deja Q]

41. No. People being bastards are abusive.

Hey, Charles Manson was an atheist hippie, people fell for his bogus message of loooooooooove and tollllllerance, and they got slaughtered too.

It's as much the deed as it is the word, if not more so.

Those CEOs who claim to be Christian - betcha they're not feeling guilt for their greed.

[moobu2]

55. Charles Manson was an atheist hippie?

Manson definitely had THEIST beliefs. He thought he was the second Jesus amongst other things. An atheist wouldn’t believe such silly shit or follow someone so obviously deranged.

He did have theist hippie followers who believed Manson was Jesus etc..I dont think Manson was a hippie.

[Berry Cool]

43. The problem is not religion per se. It never has been.

The problem is, and always has been, what some people do in the name of religion.

Too bad more people can't see that, and can't realize that bigotry against believers in any kind of faith or religion is just as offensive as any other type of bigotry.

Sadly, some people seem to take pride in being that kind of bigot.

[Jim__]

45. Ruth Hurmence Green committed suicide, proving her philosophy devalues human life.

Of course that claim (about Ruth Hurmence Green's philosophy) is nonsense. So is the claim: Christianity is abusive to EVERYONE because we are all told we are worthless because we are human due to Original Sin. No Christian will accept the premise that Christianity teaches that people are worthless. Christians can (and, unfortunately, some do) make the claim that atheism devalues human life. And, of course, atheists disagree with that claim. We should not characterize other people's beliefs. We should allow people to state their own beliefs.

We do not need more arguments that divide us. We really need to respect other people's beliefs and, in return, demand respect for our beliefs, as long as those beliefs do not cause the violation of other people's rights. Further, we need to recognize the goals that we all have in common and work together toward achieving those goals.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

46. I won't respect them if they won't respect me first.

They tell me I am worthless and sinful UNLESS I accept Jesus and his substitutionary atonement.

This is the FIRST PREMISE of Christianity -- Original Sin. If you don't have original sin you don't need to be "saved" by accepting Jesus as your savior. (Whatever that means)

The second premise is that they must go out and convert people, no matter how many people they alienate, and how obnoxious they are.

They tell me I am going to hell when I die, will suffer eternal torment, blah blah.

They are absolutely convinced that their religion, their particular church, is the ONLY true religion.

They tell me that I MUST believe the way they do. They are threatened by anyone or anything that is different from them.

I avoid them. They are living an obsolete phiolosophy that does not deal with the complexities of life in the 21st Century. It does not accept the findings of science.

They are insulting to my intelligence and my ability to decide morality for myself.

So I ignore them. Anyone who gets in my face and tells me I need to believe in their god or go to their church, OR ELSE, gets cut off and I never speak to them again.

I have been in quite a few houses of worship and only in Christian houses of worship am I told that I am worthless and sinful unless I accept J.C. Only in Christian houses of worship am I told that I am inherently BAD, just because I am human and draw breath.


Read John Bradshaw's "Healing The Shame That Binds You". He is a Ph.D. psychologist who was a priest for several years. He talks in this book about how obsessive religious belief, indeed any sort of obsessive behavior, whether shopping, sex, eating, drinking, working, is an attempt to escape from the crushing guilt and shame people feel about their normal desires and impulses.

[Dorian Gray]

66. Who are "THEY?"

Every single Christian you ever met? Because most people who are Christians that I know would just go about living their own lives, trying their hardest to be the best people they could be, and not really get in your face about your beliefs themselves.

I don't know what churches that you go to, but mine upholds the dignity of every single human life in spite of original sin. Sin is something that we human beings need to contend with, but the whole theology is based upon the fact that though we are prone to choose to sin, we are loved and each of our lives have extraordinary value.

[DeSwiss]

49. You're quite correct!!!

Original Sin = Religious BS

- K&R

[Manifestor_of_Light]

50. It's taken me years to distill their beliefs down to see how ridiculous they are.

Original Sin is a made up problem. It's made up by Christians to convince them that they need to be "saved" and accept Jesus (whatever that means -- I really don't know what salvation is.

It's like saying that everyone must buy a green shirt because the starting premise is that people who don't have green shirts go to hell.

Original Sin is a farce. It's a scam. It's a ruse. And it doesn't exist. It creates a problem where there was no problem before.

[Cetacea]

56. Shame is probably the most painful of emotional states.

Our culture is so enmeshed in it and it probably plays a much more prominent role in mental/emotional illness. I am convinced of it.
I wonder if your experience would be different if you were in say, Japan, where the people take extra care not to insult or bring shame upon others.

Thanks for bringing up Bradshaw. I'd forgotten about him and would probably find his writings very healing at the moment.

[davidinalameda]

57. loving your neighbor is abusive?

how so?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

61. we're not talking about "love thy neighbor".

We're talking about "You are sinful and will go to hell unless you accept Jesus as your savior because of original sin, because Eve was beguiled and ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge because of the serpent."

Not to mention the fact that WOMEN are blamed for most of the problems in the world, due to the fairy tale about Eve.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

65. So, you're more of a Biblical literalist than most mainstream Christians

:shrug:

[Dorian Gray]

67. It does seem that way

doesn't it? :)

[Goblinmonger]

89. No, most mainstream Christian religions

believe that Jesus is the only path to heaven. They may differ as to believe vs action, but step one is accepting Jesus as god.

[davidinalameda]

68. Jesus gave us two commandments

to love God and love your neighbor

what you're referring to is just crap thought up by men who wanted to keep power

but then, women have been second-class citizens throughout history

so you can't blame the Jews and the Christians for that

[Lydia Leftcoast]

69. And LESS second-class than in Buddhism or Hinduism or Islam

Buddhism has a benign reputation in the West, but in traditional Buddhist theology, women cannot attain enlightenment unless they are reborn as men first.

[davidinalameda]

70. you're exactly right

for all its warts, Christianity is the best

it's adapted the most over the centuries to be the most inclusive of all

that's not to say that there's still more work to be done

[Manifestor_of_Light]

71. ????? Are you kidding?

Not when women are not allowed to be ministers/priests in many denominations. Not when women must be subservient to their husbands.
Or when gay people are condemned by people who say "Oh we love them but we hate the sin".

Totally backwards thinking. Not suitable for our times.

Or what about the fact that the Holy Trinity is exclusively MALE? There are no women allowed as goddesses in the Abrahamic religions. The Catholics had to allow Mary to be venerated to replace the pagan goddess, so their religion would be accepted. Many other religions recognize a god and goddess, or multiple gods and goddesses, as expressing the balance of nature between male and female -- Hinduism, Wicca, Taoism, earth-centered religions.

I can think of several other religions that are far more inclusive of women.


From The Place of Women in Buddhism, by Swarna de Silva:

"The highest achievement of Buddhism, supreme enlightenment, is available to both men and women. This was stated categorically by the Buddha, well before there were any female Arahants, when he answered Ananda's question as to whether women could reach enlightenment in the affirmative. The point made here is so self- evident that it would not justify any more elaboration."



Maybe the Theravada buddhists (original) think that women are inferior; in Mahayana Buddhism (Chinese), Kwan Yin and the Taras are venerated as being enlightened women. Kwan Yin is held to be the highest example of selflessness, because supposedly Kwan Yin became enlightened and stayed behind on earth to help other beings reach Nirvana. That is why she is called the Bodhisattva of Compassion.


In the Bah'a'i faith, founded as an offshoot of Islam in 1817 by Baha'u'llah:

" No other world religion has been quite as explicit as the Baha'i faith in its support of the principle of the equality of men and women. Baha'is themselves proudly assert it as one of the distinguishing features of the new revelation. This equality does not refer solely to the spiritual plane, for Baha'i scriptures explicitly state that there should be "no difference in the education of male and female in order that womankind may develop equal capacity and importance with man in the social and economic equation." They further assert that "women will enter all the department of politics."



I found these quotes after a cursory search on the Internet.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

72. Guanyin (Avalokitesvara in Sanskrit) was a originally a male bodhisattva

based on one of the Buddha's disciples. In China, Avalokitesvara somehow became combined with the Chinese goddess of mercy, Guanyin, and was taken to Japan under the name of Kannon.

As I said above, you must be a refugee from a fundamentalist (or conservative Catholic or Mormon) upbringing if you think that all Christians forbid women from being in the clergy or say that women must be subservient or condemn gay people. None of these are true of the two denominations that I have belonged to.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

74. Reading Comprehension please.

I said "many Christian denominations".

I live where there are lots of right wing evangelical Christians.

The ones that have no women ministers that I can think of off the top of my head: Church of Christ (the ones who forbid music in their churches), Pentecostal, Assembly of God, Southern Baptist, Mormon, Catholic, Missionary Baptist, Nazarene.

Those also have no openly gay ministers. All those denominations put together have far more members than the liberal Protestant denominations who do allow women and gay ministers.
The Catholic and Mormon denominations are extremely large.

So you've been a member of TWO denominations. I've been to many denominations and know which ones I need to avoid.

I need to avoid everybody who is explicitly Christian, thus using the starting premise of original sin.

If you don't believe in original sin, then you don't need to be "saved" by the substitutionary atonement of Jesus. It's that simple.


That means I have to avoid every Christian denomination except for the Unitarian-Universalists, who have NO creedal test whatsoever. Because of that, you do not have to profess Christianity.

And many U-Us are quite explicitly NOT Christian.

Have I explained myself?? :banghead:

[davidinalameda]

73. the Trinity for the most part is sexless

the only member you can say is male is Jesus

God the Creator is sexless; the Holy Spirit is sexless

and if you go back and read my original post, I said that we as Christians still have work to do but we're still head and shoulders above other faiths

[Manifestor_of_Light]

75. It's 2/3rds male, the last I heard.

Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

And one third neuter.

No females anywhere.

[davidinalameda]

79. in the past, people used to picture a big guy with a long white beard sitting

on a throne since that was the easiest way to relate to a basically uneducated group of people a concept of the Creator

people today are a bit more sophisticated and can grasp the concept of a Creator that is all

[Manifestor_of_Light]

76. You people think all Christians are liberal Christians.

If all Christians were non-sexist and non-literalist and did not confront me, I would be fine with them.

I do know some Christians who do not try to convert me. But most of the ones I have run into are busy proselytizing. And those are the ones that I do not want to talk to.

BTW, I was raised as a Presbyterian and graduated from a very fine Presbyterian university. I got an excellent education there.

I'm talking about the ones that are NOT liberal. And there are lots of those around. Especially in a red state.

And you keep telling me that Christianity is not about a male Trinity, or original sin. Even Christians that are not literal, believe in original sin, the starting premise of Christianity.

If there was no original sin, then we would not need Jesus to "die for our sins". I have no idea what that means. That's a specific set-up that makes people "need" Jesus. Otherwise, Jesus would just be a great prophet and not "the Savior".


I can't stand up in church and recite the Nicene Creed or the Apostles' Creed.
I don't believe in it and I will not stand up and lie.

It's that simple.


:banghead:

[cosmik debris]

77. They would sure have trouble proving that.

With the surveys on creationism and the anti-gay assault of the last month.

Just my impression, but it appears that the VAST MAJORITY of christians are ultra conservative. And I've never seen a survey that shows a "liberal" majority.

[JerseygirlCT]

95. Did anyone here ask you to do so?

I doubt it.

I don't believe Jesus died for our sins at all. I believe Jesus, as the human incarnation of a loving God, chose to demonstrate the great lengths and depths of God's love by assuming humanity and all its pains - physical and emotional - and defeating death. It's a demonstration of love, not substitutionary atonement.

In fact, again, that theology - SA - is not universally accepted AT ALL.

[JerseygirlCT]

94. My last two priests have been women

My current priest is a woman.

Women are not excepted from those roles in many churches. Likewise, that whole "submission" crap is a creature largely of the fundamentalist churches - relative newcomers to Christianity, and definitely a minority.

And even in very traditional churches, the trinity was NOT seen as distinctly male - at all. Even when people persist for reasons of tradition in seeing God as male, the holy spirit has often been understood as female.

You're seeing all this from a very limited lens. There's a world of Christianity out there that has nothing to do with Assemblies of God or the Southern Baptist Convention...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

97. There are NO liberal churches around me.

You people sure like to try to convince me that there are Christian churches out there that don't start from original sin, substitutionary atonement and the 2/3rds male holy trinity.

Where I live there are Methodists and Baptists who are very conservative.

There are NO Congregationalists, Presbyterians or Anglicans. I have tried to tell several of these people in my very small town what a Unitarian is and I get a stare that looks like something a cow would give me. They do not comprehend what a Unitarian Universalist is.

I get very aggravated when the entire town's social life revolves around church and/or high school football. I don't have a social life because I refuse to go to their churches.

I have yet to go to ANY protestant church that does NOT subscribe to Original Sin or substitutionary atonement. All protestant churches I have been to, including the liberal ones, refer to the "father, son and holy ghost" or "father, son and holy spirit".

The churches I have been to, most of them, recite the Apostles' Creed.

I have never heard a Protestant minister say "You don't need to accept Jesus as your lord and savior. You can have eternal life and go to heaven without being saved by Jesus who died for your sins."

And I never heard a Protestant minister say "The holy trinity is without gender." It's always been "Father, son and holy ghost".

I have NEVER been to a Protestant church that states any of these doctrines you tell me about.


I can tell you the denominations I've either been a member of, or visited: Methodist, Presbyterian, United Church of Christ(Congregationalist), Unity, Missionary Baptist, Lutheran (Missouri Synod), Episcopalian.

I don't know what churches you are going to that don't believe in Original Sin or substitutionary atonement, or don't think the trinity is male.

It seems to me that the majority of Christians in this country are conservative -- the evangelical non-denominational megachurches, the Catholics, the Mormons -- all those have far more members than the liberal denominations that admit women to ordination.



2001 religious survay in the US conducted by the Graduate Center of the City University of New York:

Denominations that do NOT ordain women or gays:

Catholicism 50,873K
Baptist (they ordain some women but have commanded women to be obedient to their husbands--they are backpedaling) 33,830K
Non-denominational Christian 14,190K
Protestant (unspecified) 4,647K
Pent/Charismatic 4,407K
Mormon 2,787K
Church of Christ 2,503K
Nondenominational 2,489K
JWs 1,331K
Apostolic 254K
Fundamentalist 61K
Born Again 56K
Evangelical 1,032K
Church of God 944K
7th Day Adv 724K
Eatern Orthodox 645K
HOliness 569K
Nazarene 544K
Mennonite 346K

Total in denominations that do not ordain women or gays - 122,232K

==============
Denominations that ordain women:

Methodist, 14,150K
Lutheran 9,580K
Presby 5,596K
Episcopal 3,451K
Congregational/UCC 1,378K
Church of the Brethren 358K
Ass of God 1,106K
Disc of Christ 492K
Reformed 289K

Total in denominations that DO ordain women and/or gays - 36,400K


122,232K is MUCH BIGGER than 36,400K

I left out churches that are small or do not have an ordained ministry (Quakers, Christian Scientists). I left out the Unitarians and Universalists because they are not explicitly Christian anymore.

The first time I saw a female minister was in the late 1960s. The Episcopalians had a huge fight over ordaining women in the 1970s. So even the liberal denominations had very few women ministers until the 1990s or so.


I'm not going to church anyway. I have tried to be a liberal Christian and a conservative Christian and in neither type of church did I feel like I could believe what they wanted me to believe. I can't stand up in church and recite the apostles' creed and NOT feel like a liar and a fool.

[JerseygirlCT]

100. I think one of the problems here

is an expectation that "churches believe". People believe. Churches often have a theology that is the accepted one. But in many churches - particularly in the mainstream Protestant churches - individual conscience is far more important than any particularly held theology.

In my church, it's often referred to as "discernment", and seen as every bit as important as scripture and tradition. We are not asked to wholesale accept things such as SA. We are not asked to check our brains at the door. There is a huge variety of belief. We share common worship; no one is asked to profess to particulars or leave.

Yes, women in positions of leadership is a relatively new thing. Certainly. In the same way that most churches use a liturgy that continues to use gendered language instead of gender-neutral language - tradition. Comfort with the prayers and liturgy people were raised in. Because God is referred to as "he" does not mean that's an accepted or necessary piece of theology. The Jewish understanding of God - from which we Christians say we've come - is of no gender or both genders. God is above and beyond our human constraints.

I'm sorry you haven't found a place that's comfortable for you - it sounds as though you would like to have that. OTOH, obviously your own path doesn't require an official church, either... I do think religion, and churches, are there to serve people and to further their relationship with each other and with God - not a necessity, but a tool for people.

No one can make you believe anything you do not. And you should never feel browbeaten into accepting any belief that you simply do not accept. Absolutely, run like heck if you find yourself confronted with that!

But try not to paint the entire world of Christianity with the brush of your own experience. There is more out there than any one person's experience!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

101. I am well aware that not all Christians are dogmatic.

I was raised in a liberal denomination, Presbyterianism and have a B.A. from a very fine Presbyterian college.

I am WELL AWARE of liberal Christianity. I took religion courses from a brilliant professor with a Doctor of Divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary. He knew many ancient languages and is the most brilliant linguist I've ever met.

I am saying that in the conservative rural place where I now live, there are no liberal Christians and certainly not any Unitarians.

Don't you people know how to read?

I have a large electric coffeepot, so I think I have what I need to attempt to start a Unitarian Fellowship. The joke is that UUs worship the giver of life -- the coffeepot. :D
With my luck, in this part of the country, some rectum would probably tell me I am "Say-Tann-Ick" or something equally asinine.

I had rednecks driving by and yelling "Fuck Obama!" at my Obama sign in the yard. I wouldn't have been surprised if they had taken a potshot at it. Probably what stopped them was that I live on the main street of town.


The Jewish understanding of God is no genders or both genders? Really?
If that is true, why does every Jewish prayer book (Reform, Reconstructionist and Conservative) I have ever seen refers to god exclusively as "He" and "Father"?????

Where is this "understanding" found? In what books is that an official doctrine stated in the liturgy?

:banghead:

[JerseygirlCT]

103. Um, because we have one of those unfortunate languages where

you have to choose a gender... and in many cases, even in common speech, "he" is the default.

Because the descriptions used and written were written by men and in their minds, "he" was most certainly the default. The writers of the OT certainly would have had a bit of a time seeing the all-powerful as anything other than male.

But yes, God is not corporeal, and as such, doesn't have a gender.

[Lost-in-FL]

84. It is not best...

it was violently forced and used as an instrument of power very successfully, more than any other religion. That it why it still exists.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

98. the Jews, Christians and Muslims still like to oppress people.

the 3 Abrahamic religions are historically the biggest oppressors and killers of members of the other 2 Abrahamic religions -- the Crusades, the Holocaust(Hitler was a Catholic), the Inquisition, the Hashashin of Persia, the trials of Joan of Arc, Galileo Galilei, Giordano Bruno, the Salem Witch Trials, the Israeli-Palestinian continual wars, the assorted killing of anyone judged to be a heretic (John Calvin barbequing Michael Servetus, the first Unitarian), Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain expelling the Jews, etc.

[struggle4progress]

112. Your lack of interest in historical accuracy is rather depressing

Consider, for example, your claim Hitler was a Catholic

You don't provide any real evidence whatsoever that, between the Beer Hall Putsch and his suicide, the fellow ever regularly practiced as a Catholic, making confession and attending mass on days of obligation, for example -- and the reason you don't is simply that you can't, because such evidence doesn't exist -- though of course you'll make the claim without supporting evidence because you don't really care much about actual facts

[Manifestor_of_Light]

119. Oh I don't care about facts, do I???

You sure have fun insulting me, don't you????


From Wikipedia:

According to Steigmann-Gall, Hitler's reference to God as the "Lord of Creation" and the necessity of obeying "His will" along with several references to Jesus, reveals the infusion of Christianity into his thinking. Other sources also show Hitler's Christian thinking, according to Steigmann-Gall. He notes an unpublished manuscript where Hitler sketched out his world-view with similar Christian references, and he gives as an example a speech on April 1922 where Hitler said that Jesus was "the true God". Finally, Steigmann-Gall gives another example where in a private Nazi meeting Hitler again stated the centrality of Jesus' teachings to the Nazi movement.


Looks like a Christian to me, whether Protestant or Catholic.

[JerseygirlCT]

93. Yup.

If you keep your focus on those two commandments, everything else makes sense, including much of what the boys wrote!

[JerseygirlCT]

92. Really - do you have any understanding

that this idea is not a common one in modern day Christianity?

Favored by the newcomers to Christianity such as fundamentalists.

But not an idea that has much purchase in many other churches.

There is a depth and breadth to Christian theology that seems to be missing in your posts.

[TWiley]

81. How about a homosexual neighbor? Love him too?

My point is that loving your neighbor is something that is practiced more in the secular realm than in religious circles any more

[davidinalameda]

85. I am that gay neighbor

[TWiley]

86. My neighorbs are Ben and Martin.

Did you move in there too? It would be too cool if you really lived there.

[Meshuga]

78. No matter what you say, you enjoy a Christian holiday

Call it "secular Christmas" but Christmas is what it is: celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ just as described in the "abusive religion" that you find dangerous. Changing its nature to justify celebrating the holiday is merely masking the fact that at least one traditions of this religion has some influence in your life.

Even if it is just for Santa Claus, Christmas trees, presents, and other non-religious aspects, celebrating Christmas at any level probably make the the proponents of the religion happy since you at least enjoy part of it. Its popularity enables the marketing.

Perhaps you should try Festivus? Sorry for giving you such a hard time. Please try not to mind what this bitter Jew has to say. :-) I hope you had a nice Christmas.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

96. the Christians stole it from the pagan Solstice.

Most civilizations have had a Winter Solstice festival because people need it psychologically.

They need to socialize and light candles and share food because of the long winter nights.

The winter festivals of Mithra, Apollo, Solstice, Saturnalia were about celebrating in the winter.

Mithra and Apollo were said to have birthdays on Dec. 25th, the day the sun starts to go back north from its southernmost point at the solstice. Mithra and apollo were also allegedly miracle workers who were born of a virgin, etc., just like Jesus.

I once told a fundy Christian that he better not celebrate Christmas, because Christmas trees were a pagan symbol. I also told him that he better not celebrate Easter, because it was named after the goddess Ostara and easter eggs were a pagan symbol.



This is about Constantine convening the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, to form a unified religion to unite various Christ/Mithra/Apollo worshippers:

This new composite (federated) religion would become the official state (political) religion. It would be coequal and fused with the Mithraic religion {worship of God through the crucified, savior (Jesus) anointed (Christ), Son of God, Mithra}. It would also be fused with the official Roman derivation of the Mithraic religion, the Sol Invictus (Unconquered Sun) religion. This was the worship of God and the Emperor through Apollo and/or Mithra as the Savior Anointed (the Jesus Christ). Apollo and Mithra were symbolized as the Son of the Sun. The Sun was the visible sign of the invisible God. The soldiers and Greeks worshiped through the Persian name, Mithra, while the elite Romans worshiped through his Roman name, Apollo of Sol Invictus. Combined, this became the largest and most popular and powerful religion in the Roman world.

Sol Invictus was the religion that worshiped God and the Emperor through Apollo or Mithra. This savior God also carried the title of Savior Anointed (Jesus Christ transliterated into English). Constantine’s new religion would become the only religion the state would recognize. All other religions that refused to join would become outlawed, persecuted and eradicated - and it became so.

[Meshuga]

99. I agree and I am aware of it all but

It is a Christian tradition used to celebrate Jesus' birthday no matter what the origins may be. People celebrate "secular Christmas" because of influence from a society where the majority are Christians. You don't celebrate it because of paganism. You celebrate it because of the holiday season set by Christians. You can celebrate Yule, Festivus, nothing, or whatever you choose to make up. But you chose Christmas instead. So Christianity seems to have more influence in your life than Seinfeld, Paganism, and whatever else. :-)

[TWiley]

80. Contemporary Christianity is abusive to everyone and everything

Fundamantelism has become a scourge

[Crunchy Frog]

87. Depends on what you consider to be a tenet of Christianity. n/t

[Sandrine for you]

102. The bible should be in the same section than the PlayBoy : 18+

18+ Very violent content and abusive language.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

104. Atheist Bible Stickers

http://www.geocities.com/missus_gumby/tract.htm

Example:
This book contains X rated adult material including the words:

PISS foreskin whore dung breasts bastard circumcise concubine lust eunuch fornication

It is NOT suitable for children!


Another example:
This book has inspired:
Christian Suicide Cults, the Crusades,torture, mass overpopulation, cultural intolerance, ignorance of science, slavery and child sexual mutiliation

For over 2000 years
FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY READ SOMETHING ELSE

[Sandrine for you]

105. Great stickers !!!

[Sandrine for you]

108. And What the first thing you see when coming in a church:

An instrument of torture with a dying guy on it: Not fit for children!

But don't let children see a breast, no no, that's dangerous, maybe he will recall his first moments with his mother !

[COStorm]

117. ummm not mine

You won't find any of those things hanging above any LDS church building.

They creep me out and are really gross.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

109. kick

Shameless promotion department: Can I get 2 more recs??

Thank you.

[zonmoy]

110. To me you get a fundy christian like what I was raised in by

combining the worst traits of the Daleks and the Borg.

[Taverner]

111. Well I agree

And I'd love the child abuse that is early indoctrination to be ended

But who's going to bell that cat?

[Deep13]

113. I have to agree.

It is a sneeky, manipulative and just plain evil school of thought. It is not a question of a bad few corrupting the otherwise good message. It is corrupt ab initio for the very reasons the OP mentions. When the yardstick of decency is the god of Abraham, decent people who want to do the right thing act monstrously while being convinced they are right.

[cynatnite]

116. If you don't believe the way I do you're going to burn in hell for an eternity...

Yeah, that comes across as a little abusive and domineering.