I confronted our parish priest yesterday immediately after mass about his remarks about FOCA

[Gman]

This Sunday was the day they passed out the cards for the Freedom Of Choice Act to be sent to local congresscritters and senators. This is something the Catholic Conference of Bishops came up with and it's something they're supposed to be doing nationally. I have been anticipating this day, and when they didn't do it a few weeks ago when they did it nationally I figured, cool... they're gonna leave well enough alone. But, I breathed too soon.

Our priest has been here for less than a year and is the absolutely most conservative priest I have ever known. For the first time since like 1965, our church now has latin mass every day at 6:30 a.m. But that's no where near where it ends. At the retreat Saturday for kids that will make their confirmation in the spring, he was very upset. When he walked in he expected to find the kids all kneeling, praying and fasting and he made somewhat of a scene about the fact that they weren't. The kids were actually in groups making posters and working on their specific religion assignment along with other meditation and self-awareness stuff. The folks from the local Catholic university that put on the retreat told him what they were doing was perfectly acceptable. He didn't like it and left.

So then yesterday morning it happened. We teach the confirmation CCD class on Sunday mornings. My first sign of trouble was finding the FOCA cards in our basket to be passed out to our kids to fill out and turn back in. I refused to pass them out to our kids. My official reason was that when the church also passes out cards to be signed for the Employee Free Choice Act (union recognition) I'll consider it, but not before then. My secondary reason for not passing them out was because they were not printed by a union printer (no union bug) and I know the Catholic Church supports organized labor so it was obviously an oversight :sarcasm: Our religious education director who is an excellent Democrat laughed and said "Good! I don't blame you."

Then we go to mass. This worm of a Republican that I can't stand and who I've had heated words with in the past was making the announcement about the cards as we walked in. Fine, asshole.

Then we get to the priest's homily. He started out blasting Democrats and saying that we should all be ashamed that Obama was elected. And now the most evil legislation, legislation written by Satan himself, was about to be passed. That's when I got up and walked out. A good friend and good Democrat was sitting in the aisle seat towards the back. When I got to him I leaned over and whispered semi-loud that I'm too good a Democrat to sit here and listen to that. He laughed and said "Now calm down...!"

Just as I entered the foyer area at the rear of the church I heard over the speakers in the rear area our priest say, "Obama is very evil!" I said in a loud voice, "I can't believe he just said that!" (My wife was the lector for this mass and was sitting all the way up at the front of the church next to the alter. I was in the very rear. When I told here what I said out loud she said "I thought I heard your voice!" If she heard me all the way at the front, I know half the church heard me.))

People were in shock. We're not used to this crap. Among the things he said were that we should all be doing penance and fasting for "allowing" Obama to get elected. Anyone that supports Obama cannot be a Christian. The entire homily was a complete rant against Obama, Democrats and the FOCA.

So, right as his homily is ending, I go sit back down. Now for the rest of the mass I'm praying that I don't go ballistic because I am going to talk to the priest after Mass. I cannot and will not let it go. I'm praying for wisdom and guidance because I know Jesus was a Democrat and the first true liberal.

Now mass is over. My granddaughter and I leave the pew and as we get to the sacristy in the rear, My wife who lectored during mass is standing in the door kinda blocking it from me with a huge smile. She knows what I'm getting ready to do! I say, "Ummm... "excuse me"... She smiles and says, "Oh... did you want by?" "Yes!" "Honey, don't..." "It's Ok, I'll be cool." Then she tells me again to be calm. I promise I will.

I start out by saying "Father, there are some things you need to understand." I said, "First, President Obama is not evil. As a matter of fact, he is a very good man and a very good Christian. What you did not mention and you are completely overlooking is the fact that just this past week he made it possible for people who are about to lose their homes and be out on the street to stay in their homes. Before that he passed his stimulus bill that will keep millions of people working and able to support and provide for their families. He is already laying the groundwork for everyone to have health care. Health care for children, for the elderly, for everyone." I looked at him sternly and said, "Father, these are life issues too!"

He said (get this!), "Well. Hitler had a fine plan too. People lived well and everything was going well too. But he killed millions of people just like abortion." I said, "Yes, they were doing very well, that is until they started getting bombed." I said, "But you know what? I can make the argument that Bush was as evil and maybe even more evil than Hitler because of what he did in Iraq, not to mention other things he did. But Father, let me tell you something. There is now a rule in debate called Godwin's Law. Godwin's Law states that the first person in a debate to invoke Hitler or Nazi Germany loses the debate. So let's leave Hitler out of this." I told him that he needs to understand that the Church should be looking at ways to remove the root cause of abortion: desperation. I said women have an abortion when they are desperate. I said that no one wakes up one morning and says, "Gee, I think I'll go have an abortion today." I said that's ridiculous and it just does not happen. I told him I've known several women over the years that have had abortions and not one of them was happy about it and not one of them didn't have some regret. I told him that the way to fix abortion is to remove the desperation that leads to an abortion. I said that's what Obama's stimulus plan does. That's what Obama's mortgage plan does and that's what his health care plan does and that those ARE LIFE ISSUES TOO! I said, "I can guarantee you this: After the next 8 year, and I hope Obama will be there for 8 years, check the abortion rate now, and check it again in 8 years. You will find the abortion rate will have declined significantly because people will have hope. They'll be secure and they can take care of themselves and their families."

He tells me then that the FOCA was written by Satan himself. The conversation gets to a climax when he stops and says, "I don't care about the poor or the homeless or anything else like that. I only care about abortion and murdering babies!" I was floored. I said, "Father, I know you don't really mean that because you need to care." He didn't answer.

'Bout that time someone walked up to him and started talking to him. I said, "Father, I want to continue this conversation later. I don't think we're finished here." And I left. I don't know how many people outside the open door heard our conversation. My wife said later that people were in the parking lot in groups and everyone was royally pissed. She had several people say they had had it, and this was the last straw for them and that they would no longer attend our church.

The fact is, I really kind of like this priest. He's happy and friendly in a goofy and disarming way. I know he is a good person. He's intelligent and he is also very devout. I had heard almost from the day he got here that he was opinionated. No shit.

So we'll see where this goes. My wife intends to write a letter complaining to the chancery office. I thought to call them and complain too, but I feel I'd be going behind his back and over his head after we talked about this face to face. I'm not like that. I'd rather talk with him. If we reach an impasse then I'll consider what to do next. But this crap will not continue.

---------------

Please refrain from anti-Catholic remarks. And I am also well aware of the futility of arguing with fundies that are this nuts about it but I do it anyway. Maybe it's a character defect in me or something.

[liberalmuse]

1. Church's like this need their tax exempt status revoked.

Any church that tries to sway their congregation into voting one way or the other should be paying taxes, period.

[Gman]

5. On the way home, before I calmed down

I first told my wife I was going to call the chancery office and tell them that I would be collecting signatures on a petition and complaint to the IRS asking to revoke our church's non-profit status. Then I calmed down. Until he does something to me directly and personally I'll lay off. I think he's passionately misled but still a nice guy.

[TexasProgresive]

24. If the IRS acted it would be to at the diocese level

every parish in the diocese would lose their tax exempt status. We Catholics have a different financial structure then say, Southern Baptists. Great work though. When young Catholic women stop seeking abortion on a par with the national rate then maybe the Church can say something to the rest of the nation.

[Suich]

2. If his only issue is abortion,

he has no business being a parish priest, to say the least.

Ex-Catholic here.

[Hello_Kitty]

3. How can he not care about the poor and homeless?

He is the epitome of the "only care about life from conception to birth" mindset.

[Donnachaidh]

4. I just have one question for you to ask this priest

Is he AWARE of the fact that his mouth and his political speeches could cost his church their tax-free status? You may like him, but he really should be reported to the IRS. If he feels that he has a right to politicise his preaching, we should have the right to tax the bejesus out of him AND the church.

[Gman]

7. You know, right before the election

was the first time I walked out on a homily. There is another much younger resident priest who is just as conservative, but he is a smart-ass and I really don't like him. The Sunday before the election in November he was giving his sermon about how Catholics should consider moral issues before they decide who to vote for. He walked right up to and then backed off from specifically saying vote for McCain. At least he was smart enough to not cross that line.

I don't know how much merit a complaint would have given that there is not an election going on right now.

[Donnachaidh]

12. it doesn't really matter that there is no election now -- he's in violation

And of course I don't have the information in front of me. But other churches have been gone after because of politicizing there services, I would think that a comment to his higher-ups could get them to speak to him to *smarten up* and stop doing this during Mass.

As a former Catholic, I cannot remember ANY of the priests in my parish EVER talking of politics from the pulpit. they knew it was WRONG. Yes, they were anti-abortion, but they spoke of it in terms of the teachings of the Catholic Church -- not from a party perspective (which this guy sounds like).

You may very well like this guy. But what he is doing is dangerous to your parish. He's putting the parish in the crosshairs of the IRS - and for that reason ALONE his superiors need to know WHAT he is preaching, and how often. And they need to give HIM a reality check. And fast.

[Gman]

16. The only other time I remember any priest advocating anything remotely political

was here in South Texas back in the 60's when a local priest who was a real-life 60's radical preached a homily that everyone should be supporting Cesar Chavez and joining the march that afternoon. He went on at length about the plight of migrant farm workers. I remember my dad and all his buddies being livid.

[ZombieHorde]

31. Churches need to be taxed. nt

[RetiredTrotskyite]

43. That's A BIG 10-4 AMEN!!!

These fuckwits of whatever spiritual persuasion need to be called on their BS and if there is no satisfaction, then they and their church should have their tax-free status yanked.

[tsuki]

6. On another note, I noticed that with the assassination of Archbishop

Romero and the death of the Maryknoll nuns that was sanctioned by the Reagan administration (Haig) that the church took a right turn that continues to this day.

Abortion is a safe issue. Human rights, not so safe from the RW.

[Duer 157099]

8. "I know he is a good person."

Clearly you are mistaken about this.

A priest who openly, unabashedly admits that he does not care about the poor, is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT a good person, much less a good Christian or Catholic!

How can you say that?

He influences MANY MANY people who don't take the time to think about this issues like you do, so his influence is significant. He has multiple times more responsibility for his opinions than a lay person, so he is that much more culpable, the bar is set much higher for him. How can you say he is good? That just baffles me.

[nickinSTL]

9. your priest seriously needs to READ the bible.

I'm not a Christian, but I can respect Christians who actually understand the New Testament and the life of Jesus as portrayed in that text.

Jesus never said anything about abortion, but he talked at length about the poor.

No good Christian should ever be able to say what your priest did. He needs to be disciplined by the church hierarchy, in my opinion, although I suspect that with the current conservative leanings of the church, there's not much chance of that.

[JerseygirlCT]

30. I'd say about zero chance of that

Truly, it seems that the hierarchy would be in complete agreement with this priest. There is one issue, and one only, and anything else is of no matter.

[Lint Head]

10. I just received a call to answer an anti abortion survey.

I basically told them that all they cared about was saving fetuses and not about the criminal that murdered soldiers based on a lie to enrich Halliburton. I asked why they hate our soldiers. I asked why they didn't give a good S#*T about living breathing human beings. The same people that are against abortion have sentenced my 26 year old niece to death. She has cervical cancer and because she doesn't have health care she has to die. The same idiots that are anti abortion are against universal health care. Health care is a right.
:dem:

[Gman]

17. And these are Life issues too

they will have to recognize this and acknowledge it at some point in time. It is inevitable.

And, I'm so sorry to hear about your sister. Our prayers are with her. I lost an old friend that went all the way back to us being in Young Democrats in the 70's to breast cancer and the fact she had no insurance.

[barbtries]

46. she doesn't have to die

there are resources out there. medicaid, etc. i don't know what state you are in but there is help for her. google it.

[The Unknown Derelict]

11. Call in the exorcist...

Maybe he's possessed with the same demon that's hiding in Rush's pilonidal cavity. :sarcasm:

Seriously though, he should be reprimanded and or the church should be taxed. This is the exact reason I cannot identify with church organizations and their 'group think'.

[YDogg]

13. the guy sounds like an asshole.

sorry. I meant an evil asshole with a fucked up sense of right and wrong and no sense of proportion.

[Gman]

21. He's not evil and he's not an asshole

he's a nice guy with asshole tendencies.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. I have to agree that one-issue people are generally NOT nice people

Anyone who claims to be a servant of God and doesn't care about the poor and homeless isn't a nice guy with asshole tendencies. He's an asshole with a pleasant facade.

[Historic NY]

14. Send him an empty envelope for the collection basket....

or put a note in it each week.

[rug]

15. They have so miscalculated with this postcard bullshit.

When they did it a few weeks ago in my parish I learned about it between the 8:30 and 11:00 Mass when I was picking up my kids from Sunday school. The teachers were late because they interrupted the Mass after the homily to hand out and pick up these ridiculous postcards.

I emailed the priest that I wasn't going to the 11:00 Mass to attend a political rally. He sent me back a youtube link to an anti abortion film and told me to watch it instead if I wasn't going to Mass. He told me abortion is an intrinsic evil and requires action that is "deeply connected to life". I wrote back that sending a postcard to Arlen Specter hardly meets that description.

Unless the Church disengages from its focus on asking a government to enforce its theology by threat of prison it will lose any claim to any form of moral leadership.

[Gman]

20. I did write on the card that

I was a Democrat, not a Republican and put it in the collection basket.

[Gman]

25. Threat of prison? LOL!

I told a few of the people I talked to that considering how conservative these guys are that I was probably going to end up under house arrest just like Galileo. They want to take us back to the 1500's so why not.

[LiberalFighter]

18. Are there any stats on abortions during Reagan/Bush Admin, Clinton Admin and BushIdiot Admin?

I seem to recall abortions were reduced during Clinton. Maybe I am wrong.

[JerseygirlCT]

29. That's my recollection as well nt

[LiberalFighter]

32. You should ask "Why are you against Democratic Presidents when there are fewer abortions?"

[Why Syzygy]

35. They began to decline in 2000

And this ~
The sad irony is that the Bishops end up in cahoots with pro-life extremists who shun even those fighting to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies. Sebelius, for instance, while pro-choice, has achieved many of the goals the pro-life community supposedly endorses. While Governor she has focused on preventing unwanted pregnancy, resulting in a dramatic 10% decline in abortion rates during her time in office. (Genuine pro-lifers, those who actually seek to lower abortion rates, will find much in her record to commend.)
http://rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2009/03/03/the-majority-catholics-are-fake

But, since Catholic hardliners prohibit birth control, I'm sure there's little comfort there.

[Why Syzygy]

36. dupe

[LiberalFighter]

19. I don't recall that German citizens did well under Hitler.

My recollection was that they had rationing and lived in fear.

[norepubsin08]

23. What's the name of your church?

I want to report it to the IRS Just FYI: I found happiness in the Lutheran Church it's almost like a Catholic Church.

[SarahJohn]

26. Wow

this level of alienation could really harsh your worship experience! But I guess that is life in an imperfect world, and the Church is very much part of that imperfection. Good luck in working through it without blowing a blood vessel.

[Taitertots]

27. Like it or not

The positions of the Catholic church are against abortion, against FOCA, and against a large number of progressive causes. When it comes to church positions he is right and you are wrong. If you don't like that you should leave as I have.


Obama is good man, a good "christian", and a good president. That doesn't make him acceptable to Catholicism. You need to think deeply about supporting Catholicism when it opposes many things you believe in.

[Gman]

34. Nah, the Church needs to change. Not me.

[Taitertots]

37. Not being realistic

You expect everyone from the pope down to change because of what you think. Just leave Catholicism.

[JerseygirlCT]

38. I'm afraid the question is - can you wait that long

Because you know as well as I do that the RCC changes only slowly, when it does so at all. And this bunch of boys running the show are pretty uniformly content to make this one issue THE issue. Apparently, it's working for them.

I feel for you, I do. I left about 15 years ago, myself, to join the Episcopal church - same liturgy, many of the same traditions, but much less of the misogyny, and a democratic way of running things. (Seriously, put together by the same people who were putting together our new country - many similarities in how TEC is governed to our US gov't).

I just realized it wasn't doing me any good, spiritually, to leave mass pissed off. And that the changes I needed to see weren't going to happen in my lifetime, that's for sure.

So hang in there and fight - I'm totally on your side. I just couldn't stay and do it myself.

[Gman]

41. I'm in it for the long haul

like eternity. If I leave, they win. But as far as my church goes, I think this guy is gone by early summer when they routinely rotate priests. I was there long before him and I'll be there after he's gone to go screw up some other parish.

[JerseygirlCT]

42. LOL, yeah, there's that

the guy who'd been pastor at the church I grew up in (my parents' parish still) was a bit of a maverick. Thought that some of the rules from the big boys were pretty silly, and ignored what he could. (Like when they decided women shouldn't even be on the altar and so no altar girls anymore. The girls stayed.) The bishop apparently couldn't stand him, and forced him out once he reached retirement age - which is sad, b/c that parish was his family.

There have been at least two since then. Seems to be lots of turnover these days.

[JerseygirlCT]

28. I suppose, at worst, you can say he was honest.

I don't think he's supposed to let on that there's one agenda, and one only: preventing women from making their own medical decisions.

The priest at my parent's church is also a young, conservative guy. I know, even if I hadn't already left the RCC for the Episcopal Church (and this is where it occurs to me to mention that our ability to call a priest, instead of being assigned one, is another thing I like about my church), but even if I hadn't already left, running up against someone like this would send me flying out the door.

Sounds like you did a good job, making your points. I just wonder whether there were really any ears open to listening to you.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

33. A suggestion....

If you're worried about social justice, maybe you should join a liberal church.

The United Church of Christ or the Unitarian Universalists??


www.uua.org

[JerseygirlCT]

39. The sad part is that the RCC has a long tradition of social justice

But the current PTB seem to want to focus on abortion as the only issue that matters. It's truly a shame.

[maxsolomon]

40. Sounds like he needs to get laid.

keep up the good fight. the church should walk jesus' talk in the sermon on the mount.

[knitter4democracy]

44. It sounds like your church needs a Peace and Justice priest.

Not this guy. Clergy more concerned with peace and justice issues do care about pro-life issues, but they see them as part of a larger picture. I wonder what he'd do if he saw you with a Catholic Worker pin on. ;)

[barbtries]

45. really good story

i'll try to refrain from the anti catholic thing, anti religion thing just long enough to let you know that i deeply respect you for speaking up for the people that priest is apparently too single minded to remember. i'm tempted to say that the man needs to grow up. doesn't care? how can one be a priest and not care?! amazing story well written too...thank you for sharing.

[classof56]

47. Back in 2004, I walked out of a Southern Baptist church I'd been attending

After listening to the anti-gay diatribes, including the congregation monetarily supporting the anti-gay rights Measure 36 that was on the Oregon ballot that year. Oh, and the pastor waxing on about Iraq being a "righteous war". After much soul searching, and reading Bart Ehrman's books ("Misquoting Jesus" and "God's Problem") I'm pretty much willing to concede I've been wrong about my beliefs my entire life (in my 70s now) to the point God may not even exist. That's my deal, have friends trying to convince me otherwise. But so far I'm experiencing a more profound sense of peace than in all my years as a born-again evangelical and I kinda like it.

My spouse is a lapsed Catholic and we now share agnosticism, strange to be in the same place as far as religion goes for the first time in our 42 years together. The thing is (and I hope you don't mind me sharing a couple-three things), my mother-in-law was a devout Catholic who bless her never tried to shove her beliefs down anyone's throats. A few months before she died in 1995, we were discussing the "Death with Dignity" ballot measure, which priests were hammering on congregations about on a regular basis, and mother-in-law said it was her opinion people should make their own life-or-death decisions, she would not presume to tell them what to do, and she strongly opposed extraordinary means to keep someone alive. Only a couple of months later, as she lay in a coma, her brain gone, we had to make that decision for her. Thankfully, she had made her wishes known to me, had a doctor who agreed (she hadn't signed those state-required forms), and the hospital chaplain, a priest, gave her last rites without questions.

A few years ago, my sister-in-law visited from another state and while here asked me to attend mass with her, which I of course was happy to do. Until the moment the priest rose, began his sermon, and immediately lambasted me as a heretic because I did not concede the Catholic church is the one true church. Well, he didn't call me out by name, but the affect was the same. I snickered and my sister-in-law gasped, later said her priest back home would never have said such a thing and was so angry she almost walked out. Well, it was the first time I'd been branded a heretic, kind of amusing in a way, but I'm grateful they no longer burn us at the stake.

A friend of ours is a priest whose big issue is illegal immigration, thinks those trying to enter our country from the south should be shot at the border. Wowser! That's what Jesus would do, I'm sure. (Sarcasm here!) I mentioned to him (friend the priest) that a long time ago, a missionary I knew who had served in Mexico for many years told me the immigration problem will likely never be resolved until the Pope (or whoever) approves birth control. Friend the priest talked around that for a bit, allowed as how that would never happen, and the responsibility for birth control was, after all's said and done, incumbent on the woman who has to just simply say "no". Wowser again...Love our friend the priest, but still...!

I like your posts and very much admire you providing your priest with a good dose of truth. Not that easily done when the clergy is involved--they can be intimidating, though clearly you are equal to the task. I admire your faith, too. Mine has pretty much vanished, but as I like to say--If the Baptists have it right, I'm covered. Guess like everyone I'll find out one of these days. Till then, kinda nice to not live my life in fear of God striking me with a rod of iron 'cause I've goofed up once again.

If you've read all of this, thank you and blessings.

Tired Old Cynic

[olegramps]

48. I would not be surprised if he is a member of Opus Dei.

What can you expect from today's young priests? If they are willing to accept all of the church's teachings, no ordination of women, contraception is evil, the pope is infallible, etc., that many if not most Catholics don't accept, you can't expect them to be very reasonable. I am afraid that you are wasting your time. Just watch him closely and keep your children close.