Nine-year-old 'incest victim' aborts twins

[panzerfaust]

Source: Sydney Morning Herald (Oz)

A nine-year-old girl who was carrying twins, allegedly after being raped by her stepfather, has undergone an abortion despite complaints from Brazil's Catholic Church...

... Marcio Miranda, a lawyer for the Archdiocese of Olinda and Recife in north-eastern Brazil, said the girl should have carried the twins
to term and had a caesarean section.

"It's the law of God: do not kill. We consider this murder," Ms Miranda said in comments reported by O Globo.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/nineyearold-incest-victim-aborts-twins-20090305-8oom.html

---

I have no idea why incest victim is put in quotes, as there seems no question that the NINE year old is the victim of incest, and also could have been made a victim of her (parent's) religion.

[WinkyDink]

1. "Allegedly" and "step-father" (it's rape, no matter what, but not by "blood"). The Church is insane.

And I speak as a member of the tribe.

[and-justice-for-all]

2. The 'church' is just as appaling as the act itself is...nt

[acmavm]

21. Oh yeah. Their attack of the girl is inexcusable. But sex and the

church have nothing to do with common sense or intelligence even.

Any organization that preaches celibacy with a history that the Catholic Church has is insane. Any organization that preaches the 'infallibility' of its leader (the Pope) is insane. Especially considering some of the rabid fanatics this Church has had as its head. I seriously don't see too much difference in the Catholic Church and it's policies/practices/message and radical Islam.

And I was raised in the Catholic Church, so I can say that.

[mimitabby]

47. ooops too early sorry

n/y=t

[acmavm]

57. Too early for what? And what is n/y=t

[roguevalley]

95. radicals of any stripe are radicals. this child is so sad.

[and-justice-for-all]

102. Huh?

"But sex and the church have nothing to do with common sense or intelligence even." Both are appalling, the fact that a 9 years old was pregnant in the first place and the church itself.

[ck4829]

3. And then after the twins would be born...

Marcio Miranda would have said "OK, see you all later. I am out of here!"

Leaves the rape victim with twins to fend for herself.

[Stargazer09]

25. Isn't that how all those "pro-life" types act?

"We don't care about the CHILDREN and the MOTHER, just the fact that the FETUSES deserves a chance to be born."

Once the babies arrive, they would probably treat the GIRL like dirt for not being able to support her children.

Sick people, one and all.

[Blue_Tires]

44. but not before calling her out on her 'sluttiness...'

[jmowreader]

48. Or dead, more than likely

Nine-year-olds are not physically large enough to carry twins. I could have foreseen internal bleeding, and death.

[marybourg]

94. That why the warm, caring, priest suggested a cesarean nt.

[JI7]

4. she is a child

she is already going to have to deal with being a rape victim for the rest of her life and now the catholic church wants to accuse her of murder and force a child to carry and give birth.

[Dorian Gray]

105. A 9 year old can't make that decision

and be held up as a murderer. It would be her advocates who are the murderers in the eyes of the church. In this instance I would happily take on that moniker in order to protect my child.

[hlthe2b]

5. Not to mention the very real risk of death to a 9 yo carrying twins...

Which, the Catholic hierarchy couldn't give a damn about. (God's will, if it happens, ya know....:eyes:)

[Mad_Dem_X]

27. Don't you know, as soon as a woman (or girl) becomes pregnant

she ceases to exist as a person, and is only a walking incubator? Her thoughts and feelings no longer matter, nor does any physical issues she may have!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

51. exactly exactly exactly!

and that attitude isn't just limited to the church or to Brazil, either.

And Marcio M...whatever is a woman. Too often, women seem so willing to enlist in the armies of misogyny.

[AlbertCat]

33. God's will, if it happens, ya know

Yeah....so the abortion happened and it too is this omnipotent god's will, is it not? Why is the happenstance of becoming pregnant with twins, not to mention the rape that caused it, god's will but the abortion isn't? It isn't like the 9 year old became pregnant on her own....with just the help of god. If her step-father was needed by god to make that happen, then the doctor was also mysteriously playing his part in god's little plan...I mean if it's god's will and all.

Just where does god's will end?

[primavera]

65. That's about the size of it

I once knew a young Catholic woman who truly believed that she could leave birth control to God - she could have as much sex as she liked and, if God didn't want her to get pregnant, she wouldn't and if He did want her to get pregnant, then she would. Therefore any assumption of birth control or even abstention on her part constituted interference with God's will. It just blew me away at the time to see a grown woman in this day and age relegate herself to being a purely inanimate, passive vessel of God's will - hadn't she ever heard of free choice? Yet, terrifying as her brainwashed condition was, it's even scarier to realize that she wasn't the only one to be so brainwashed and that the Church is vigorously promoting this sort of mental illness. Talk about unconscionable.

[emmadoggy]

43. That was my first thought...

a NINE year old carrying twins seems like an impossible, or EXTREMELY risky task. I carried twins and it was a very demanding pregnancy. And I was a FULL GROWN adult! The poor girl! As if she hasn't suffered enough dealing with rape, and now an abortion. I hope this girl gets some excellent help and care after this - she will need it.

The church's condemnation of this is despicable.

[LeftishBrit]

84. The babies would also be at high risk of death or serious disability

This is just horrifying; they should be worried about the sick child molester who did this to her, not about her getting a necessary medical procedure. Poor little girl.

[fujiyama]

6. "we consider this murder"

Wow, the church really is insane. I'd use some words to describe Ms. Miranda, but they wouldn't be appropriate. I wonder if it's "God's law" to rape kids and have them give birth. But these aren't the kinds of questions the church asks.

[ejpoeta]

16. i don't know. they seem to have some issues they need to work out.

i mean, to force a 9 year old rape victim to risk her life to have her rapist's children is abhorrent. i mean, this crap just makes me sick. and i don't know who could participate in a religion that would think this way!!!

[SkyDaddy7]

7. If anyone had any doubts...

Belief in Bronze Age Myths corrupts the mind! This is a 9 yr old girl! I could see the Bush Administration calling the Republican Congress back to try and block an abortion like this. Murder? WTF?

[Ian David]

8. I bet the "Church" wanted to build a shrine to the "miracle" of the pregnant 9-year-old. n/t

[Monk06]

9. A women's (or nine yo girl's) uterus does not belong to the Catholic Church

It's long past time that women hating
old men in robes STFU about women's
rights. They have treated women like
slaves for 2000 years.

[ejpoeta]

36. the catholic church isn't much different than the taliban, really.

women are property, not people. and we are to blame for everything also.

[Marrah_G]

52. Not a fan of the catholic church but no- they are not like the Taliban

That is like comparing a Geko to a Croc.......

The Catholic church gave a statement.

The Taliban would have forced her to give birth, then they would have buried her up to her neck and while forcing the other people in her village to throw rocks at her head until she was dead.

On a more merciful day they would drive her out into a packed stadium so they could shoot her in the head for the crime of being a victim of abuse.

[get the red out]

68. By GAWD

if it weren't for secular laws in the "western" world I am not sure they wouldn't blow the girl's head off.

[Monk06]

80. That's a bit cryptic. You'll have to fill the detailis in a little bit

[moggie]

10. Do your job, Ms Miranda

"It's the law of God: do not kill. We consider this murder," Ms Miranda said in comments reported by O Globo.

You're licensed to practise laws made by the state, not by God: and the state clearly says that this abortion is legally permissible. If you think God's laws (whatever those are, since Christians can't agree) outrank the state's laws, you should resign and become a priest. Oh wait, you can't, because apparently one of God's little laws is that women are subordinate to men, and only men can be priests. So why are you serving those heartless, medieval misogynists, and trying to make a little kid suffer even more?

[RedSock]

11. church's position

i do not believe abortion is ever murder, but it's nice to see the church actually take what is clearly an unpopular and callous stand.

most right-wingers think abortion is murder but then suddenly it is not murder in certain cases -- rape, incest, etc. if you think it's murder, then it is ALWAYS murder -- so stick to your beliefs. unless your stance really has nothing to do with abortion and is simply about controlling women. mealy-mouthed idiots.

[ehrnst]

28. It's true - if they are going to be consistent in the "abortion is murder" stance...

Then they can't make exceptions.

Which shows just how ridiculous, callous, mysogyist and ill-advised any support of forced childbearing really is.

Which is why so many "PLs" hem and haw, because when you corner them on it, they would have to face the dark side of their postion.

[marshall]

29. They also are consistent in their objection to capital punishment

At the very least they are honest across the board in the belief about life. Unlike many who fight against abortion but at the same time support capital punishment.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

12. Shit like this makes me want to break something.

Brazil is more liberal and enlightened than the US in a lot of aspects, but sometimes... oh boy. :mad:

[salguine]

13. if anything need to be aborted it's the Catholic church.

[wellst0nev0ter]

14. And My Sister Kept Me Up Two Hours Trying To Convince Me

To start coming to church again. This is just beyond disgusting. When they decide somewhere down the line to join the modern age, perhaps I'll reconsider.

[ejpoeta]

15. a nine year old... A NINE YEAR OLD!!! her body probably couldn't handle it!

definitely a threat to the girl's health. and why isn't the church mad about someone raping a 9 year old. wtf!!!

[connecticut yankee]

22. He probably

went to confession.

[ejpoeta]

34. yes. we all know that makes EVERYTHING better!!

i have a real problem with that idea... that you can go to a priest and as a middle man, a priest can absolve a person of their sins. i remember going to confessional and being told that if i do two hail mary's and an our father, everything will be forgiven. how do they determine the ratio that goes with a certain offense? swearing is x number of hail mary's.... what is incestuous rape?? five hail mary's and two our father's?

[get the red out]

69. Since it was a child being raped

the Priest would have probably jerked his perverted self off during the molester's confession.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. the catholic church is delightful in its stance toward women and gays.

the poor child. i hope she gets a lot of therapy and safety.

:cry:

[MicaelS]

18. Nine years old!!!!!

My god, I'm almost ready to volunteer to fly to Brazil and put a bullet in this rapist's head once he get's convicted. :nuke:

[Mad_Dem_X]

31. I'll go with you.

Anyone who would rape a child does not deserve to live, IMO.

[get the red out]

92. No one who supports him

over the health of a child does either, so that would include those perverted Priests of the Catholic Church and their Hitler Youth Pope.

[HillWilliam]

19. If anyone needed any further proof that the church is insane

and many of its adherents are insane for justifying and rationalizing the rape of a nine-year-old girl and the insistence that she bear the product of that rape, well, there ya go.

Sicksicksicksicksicksicksicksicksick.

These "pro-life" nuts need to be called out every time they open their idiotic mouths. Anyone who is "pro-war" and "pro-death-penalty" as they almost always are cannot simultaneously be "pro-life". It simply cannot be, it simply cannot happen, period, end of story. Then to insist that a nine-year-old girl remain pregnant after being victimized by rape is sick beyond belief. A nine-year-old body cannot sustain a healthy pregnancy with one fetus, let alone twins.

Sick and stupid. Bovine f'ing stupid.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

23. pro-insanity, not pro life

"pro life" is a misnomer when a person or group cares more about some cells than they do about women, or in this case girls. That's pro-insanity, not life.

[HillWilliam]

53. You got that right

You can't talk any sense to those people at all. I've tried for decades. They're stubborn, hateful, single-minded, bigoted, vicious-spirited, spiteful, arrogant, and soaked in their own sense of self-righteous superiority. More often than not, they have the IQ of your average stone and couldn't pour piss out of a boot with the instructions printed on the heel. Most of them have their own lives totally screwed up, yet they dast presume to meddle in everyone else's.

I'm now in my 50's and find I no longer have patience right-wing idiots and religious bigots. I don't mind telling them flat-out, either.

"Pro-insanity" fits them perfectly.

[PFunk]

20. (sigh)

It's crap like this that makes me glad I'm a reformed catholic. And further convinces me that "mother" church needs another reformation ASAP.

[Ms. Toad]

24. Re "Incest victim"

Don't know if it was the intent or not, but it is a double insult.

First, incest has been an offensive term in the anti-rape movement at least since the late 70s, because it implies consent. The preferred terminology is family rape.

Second, since they don't appear to be quoting someone else (and might actually have realized that "incest victim" is offensive), putting their own words in quotes implies questioning of the reality of what this girl went through.

[MicaelS]

32. Really? I did not know that...

First time I have ever heard the term.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

38. There's a "movement"?

I thought all sane people were anti-rape.

As for the notion of somehow finding the word 'incest' offensive, that's such a bastardization as to make me dizzy. Where in the definition of the word does consent even glimmer? Any normal person knows that consent is hardly part of the word's meaning.

I'm just so tired of this PC bullshit that goes on when people have strange notions about perfectly suitable and appropriate words and decide they're going to invent new meanings for them.

Incest, anti-rape. My god, it's as stupid as "pro-life" meaning "anti-choice."

Words, folks. Use them properly and act accordingly. Otherwise, you just end up looking like the bunch of idiots. I know this explanation of 'anti-rape' made me laugh out loud.

[RaleighNCDUer]

45. shows how much times have changed.

Yes, there is (or was) a movement.

There was a time when there were laws on the books that said that raping a prostitute was a contradiction in terms.

There was a time when the law said marriage implied consent, so a husband could never be charged with raping his wife.

And, as in this case, parent/child sex was called incest, rather than rape.

We've come a long way since ONE GENERATION AGO.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

62. Did it ever occur to you

that the law has a concept that protects children, and because a child is never assumed to have consented to sex with anyone, family member or not, it is always implicitly known as rape? Incest designates that it was committed by a family member, making the offense even more heinous.

Your education is wanting, and it shows. You obviously haven't come as far in real life as you have in your mind.

Now, go learn about these things.

[RaleighNCDUer]

75. What the FUCK are you talking about?

I'm talking about what WAS, not what IS.

And 30 years ago parental incest was often considered a different category than rape. That is a FACT. Often as not, if the case did come to court, the charge was incest, not rape, and got a very minimal sentence. People had to go to court, repeatedly, to get rulings that overturned that.

"Child sexual abuse became a public issue in the 1970s and 1980s. Prior to this point in time sexual abuse remained rather secretive and socially unspeakable. Studies on child molestation were nonexistent until the 1920s and the first national estimate of the number of child sexual abuse cases was published in 1948. By 1968 44 out of 50 U.S. states had enacted mandatory laws that required physicians to report cases of suspicious child abuse. Legal action began to become more prevalent in the 1970s with the enactment of the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act in 1974 in conjunction with the creation of the National Center for Child Abuse and Neglect. Since the creation of the Child Abuse and Treatment Act, reported child abuse cases have increased dramatically. Finally, the National Abuse Coalition was created in 1979 to create pressure in congress to create more sexual abuse laws.

Second wave feminism brought greater awareness of child sexual abuse and violence against women, and made them public, political issues."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_molestation

As late as the 80s, there were states where a woman could not accuse her husband of raping her. By law, the concept did not exist, as marriage implied consent, period. Women had to FIGHT that in court, repeatedly.

"Many United States rape statutes used to preclude spousal prosecution, including estranged or even legally separated couples. In 1975, South Dakota removed this exception. By 1993, this was the case throughout the United States. However, as of 1999, 33 of 50 U.S. states regard spousal rape as a lesser crime . The perpetrator may be charged with related crimes such as assault, battery, or spousal abuse."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spousal_rape

Even into the 90s, charges of rape made by prostitutes were dismissed, because 1) they dressed provoctively, and 2) their profession was thought to make rape oxymoronic, in the thinking that rape is about sex rather than power and control.
http://www.atypon-link.com/AAP/doi/abs/10.1375/acri.40.2.127?cookieSet=1&journalCode=acri

There was a long fight in the women's movement to correct these problems - generally subsumed in the overall movement, but sometimes specifically focused on them.

Perhaps it is YOU who needs some schooling.

[Ms. Toad]

76. Thank you.

Those who cannot remember history are doomed to repeat it. It is really sad how quickly the knowledge has been lost.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

90. You just aren't reading well

That's all right. You have a dog in this fight, it seems, but I don't, so consider yourself the winner. That, I hope, will make you feel better.

But, I must say, some stranger "schooling" me in what the "women's movement" did or didn't do is unintentionally hilarious.

I do wish you luck.

[Ms. Toad]

72. When I was raped in 1975

I was treated brutally by the police, even though they had reports of the same individual raping a half dozen other women before me. They ultimately picked him up and "gave him a good scare," mostly because I went to the interview with college officials with me to support me - I can't imagine how I would have been treated had I gone alone.

When I started working with the Rape Crisis Center in the same city 4 years later, a husband could not rape his wife - the concept did not exist since a wife was not allowed to refuse to consent to sex.

The standing "joke" at the time was that if you didn't have a gun to your head or a knife to your neck you couldn't have been raped because - after all - you can't stick a pencil into a moving pop bottle.

So - yes, there was a movement, and like racism didn't vanish just because Barack Obama was elected, there are still places today where the above would still occur (although probably slightly more veiled, since it isn't really proper to express such things in polite company anymore).

The 9 year old girl was raped. She was not involved in an incestuous relationship with her father. That is the proper use of language, and accurately names the emotionally, if not physically, act imposed on her.

[Monk06]

56. The term 'incest' implies consent? Who's the genius that thought that ass back wards concept up?

As for incest 'has been an offensive term in
the anti rape movement since the 70s' : that
is just absurd.

I have never heard of such a thing as an anti
rape movement and I have followed feminist
political theory for thirty years.

The problem with feminist and progressive polemics
is it's tendency to get bogged down in nominalism
and the enforcement of reforms that are merely linguistic
in nature. I call it the church lady syndrome because
it is more concerned with the enforcement of superficial
orthodoxy in language use rather than real change.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

66. Amen -

the lack of knowledge on the part of these Language Warriors is shameful.

[Monk06]

71. Not only that but it has it's origins in Maoist and Neo Trotskiist left wing

Politics in the seventies which attempted
to achieve its aims through party discipline

That produced the Cultural Revolution in
China where the Red Guard cadre pushed the
country into the stone age.

Two things worth mentioning. The American Right
call their movement the 'Cultural Revolution'
and the left have not given up their own
fetish for conformity and arbitrary mass
transformation of society based on legalism
rather than authentic change.

Really the difference in the orthodoxy of the
left and right is just a matter of flavor. They
are both only interested in enforcing social conformity.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

91. Again, agreed,

and doctrinaires of either side bore the hell out of me.

I often think, I went through all that I did back in the sixties and seventies to have it end up with these morons making asses of themselves? They surely do not represent me or my sisters, the ones who worked so damn hard to blaze those trails that these idiots are now cluttering up with their mindless spewing.

Thanks for the glimmer of intelligence and sanity. It's nice to know I'm not alone.

:toast:

[Ms. Toad]

96. You think you were the only one working to blaze trails

in the 60s and 70s? You seem not to realize that at least one of the people you are calling a moron was also working in that same time. My experience in blazing those trails, and the language I use, came from the countless women who experienced rape, not incest, at the hands of their families. They, not you, get to decide what it is called.

Sexual activity is the general term which includes both consensual and non-consensual behavior. Similarly, incest includes both consensual and non-consensual behavior. In both cases, when the behavior is non-consensual it is rape; in the case of incest it is family rape - i.e. rape by a family member. Just as it trivializes the horrific experience of rape to describe it as having sex with the rapist, it trivializes the experience of being raped by a family member to describe it as incest.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

98. I got as far as your first sentence,

which is so nuts as to render the rest of whatever gibberish you posted here superfluous. I've got better things to do than read idiot rantings, so I didn't read yours.

How you got the notion that I thought I was "... the only one working to blaze trails..." is beyond me, or any other sentient human being.

::::: yawn ::::::

[Ms. Toad]

101. I got that notion because you were referring

to other trailblazers to (and about) whom you were speaking as "morons" and "idiots" and complaining about us now cluttering the trails you worked "so damn hard to blaze those trails," apparently oblivious to the fact that you were speaking to very people who blazed some of those trails.

[Ms. Toad]

70. incest, as defined,

includes consensual relationships between peers - brothers and sisters experimenting, and the marriage of first cousins in many states for example - both of which are often the subject of jokes. Calling the rape of a child by a parent "incest" trivializes it, and minimizes the very real violence (albeit usually emotional rather than physical) that it involves.

It is not a matter of political correctness it is a matter of giving individuals who have experienced this the tools to accurately name and claim it. "I was raped by my father" clearly focuses the blame in a way that "I had an incestuous relationship with my father" does not. In rape, there is a perpetrator and a victim. In incest, there are two participants. Family rape can be such a confusing experience that individuals who have experienced it often have difficulty getting over their own feelings of guilt, and in some instances feelings of complicity. Being able to name that experience with a universally clear word that puts the blame where it belongs is helpful.

I volunteered 4-12 hours a week (at least) as hospital and phone advocate, trainer for new advocates, legal advocate, and board member at a rape crisis center in a major city for 10 years - so I'm a little closer than "following" it.

[Monk06]

74. Incest as defined ?? I am an adult. I don't think I need to have the term incest defined

for me. Read my response to Tangerine LaBamba above

Your language is neo Maoist and contains the element
of sexual pessimism/shame/revulsion that has characterized
Maoism since Mao's brand of Stalinism became popular in
the seventies.

Your terminology: tools, naming, claiming, contain all
the accusative and normative features of Maoist orthodoxy
with it's Puritanical Protestant morality.

Anyone with a brain in their head knows that incest is
not consensual.

Insisting on calling it 'family rape' changes nothing accept
to support this current and absurd notion of 'double victimhood'

Plus quoting your resume as a rape center 'phone advocate' makes
no never mind to me. I'm glad that you have committed your life
to serving rape victims but in terms of the broader political discourse
that has evolved in feminist and progressive movements since the seventies
is concerned, enforcing minor semantic conformity regarding how we talk
about these issues is a dead end. You either alienate people who you wish
to engage or you preach to the choir. Not very useful IMO

[RaleighNCDUer]

78. Try reading instead of polemicizing.

What part of "experimenting between siblings, and marriage between first cousins" don't you get. By definition, they ARE incenst and ARE consensual.

That does not mean that ALL incest is consensual, any more than your contention that All incest is rape.

The point, as originally made, is that there can be NO consensual relationship between a parent (or parental figure) and a 9 year old child, so calling THAT incest is a diminishment of the seriousness of the fact. Incest CAN be consensual. Rape is NEVER consensual.

As pointed out above, words have meaning. Insisting on the true meaning is NOT being PC.

[Monk06]

87. Try reading some history regarding Maoism and sexuality and I already said incest is non consual

You are starting a flame war so I am out of here.

[RaleighNCDUer]

89. You are the one not reading. And I don't give a fuck about Maoism, which

is not pertinent in any way to the discussion in the first place.

Go back and READ what I wrote, and see where your error in interpretation is. It's not too hard - it is in English.

[Ms. Toad]

79. "Advocate" distinguishes our work from those of professional

counselors who tend to treat the recovery process as a clinical disease which requires "treatment" as opposed to a wide variety of normal reactions to a horrendous experience. The official postion was "peer advocate," phone describes the mechanism of communication; hospital implies communication in a hospital setting; legal implies communication in a legal setting (the courtroom or the police station, car, etc.). Sorry you don't like the official position.

You were touting "following" the women's movement as your credentials. I've spent around 4000 hours with hundreds of women, men, and children who have been raped, and I can tell you from that experience that it is often big step in the recovery process for women who have been raped by a family member to be able to identify that experience as rape. Respecting the terminology used by people who have experienced it is not enforcing minor semantic conformity - any more than it is enforcing minor semantic conformity to respect the request of an ethnic group to use a particular term when referring to that group.

[Monk06]

85. I am not touting anything. My experience re womens issues is entirely academic. As

I said while your field experience in sexual
assault support is exemplary there is a continuing
tendency of support workers such as yourself to get
bogged down in terminology. This is counter productive
IMO and indicative of a bureaucratic mentality that is
becoming increasingly dominant in society.

Again, 'respecting the terminology used by people
who have experienced it' is a form of bureaucratic
language that implies that incest/rape victims are
ignored misunderstood or disrespected. I need some
evidence for that beyond a bureaucratic fiat. Incest
is one of the most ancient taboos in every society.
Calling it family rape is guilding the lily.

If someone who has suffered rape from a family member
or simply says my dad makes me have sex with him, then
it is rape whether the victim calls it that or not.

Really I think this is a non issue. I can think of no
one, (and I am personally aware of a couple of cases)
who did not consider their experience of incest as anything
other than non consensual.

[Ms. Toad]

99. Then you should spend some time

with women and men who are just starting to talk about their experiences.

>>Really I think this is a non issue. I can think of no
one, (and I am personally aware of a couple of cases)
who did not consider their experience of incest as anything
other than non consensual.<<

Many women (and the majority are women so I'll just talk about women to avoid juggling pronouns), particularly when they first start speaking about their experiences are very confused. Many question whether they did something to trigger it. Were they dressing provocatively (I have spoken with children who later questioned how they dressed at that young age - as well as with mothers who blamed their pre-teen daughters for seducing their husbands/boyfriends)? Why did they have an orgasm (it is not uncommon in family rape - particularly when the victim is male, or when oral sex is performed on a female victim) - did that mean they really wanted it? Many confuse sex with love, because the act of rape - or more often the relatively long indoctrination period leading up to intercourse - was the only time that parent was physically gentle with them - rather than angry and physically abusive. Some do "consent" because they believe that it will protect a younger sibling - and struggle with coming to grips how to think about that "consent."

Family rape is often extremely confusing for the survivors. Naming it rape is often one of the first steps toward recovery.

That doesn't even begin to address the core misunderstanding you seem to have that incest is never consensual.

The taboo likely developed because of the tendency of two individuals with a shared genetic background to have the same recessive genes and produce the associated trait in their offspring - not the power differential between the participants. Siblings may well be attracted to each other and choose to act on it - particularly step-siblings or adopted children who are less, or not, genetically related. In many states, sexual relationships between first cousins is incest (because the law prohibits marriage between first cousins), and those relationships are more likely than not consensual.

Just because something is taboo doesn't necessarily imply that it was forced.

[fascisthunter]

83. what does Maoism have to do with this?

[Dorian Gray]

111. you lost me

at neo-maoist.

[Jefferson23]

26. It is not enough of a nightmare for this child to have been raped

by her stepfather, the church must continue this horror by judging her. It's the law of God? Yea, I guess it is when you have more than enough arrogance to believe you speak for God. I hope this child finds some peace in her life and is given the support she needs and deserves.

[Alcibiades]

30. And, of course, zero outrage at the rape

You little girls are supposed to have your rape babies and be grateful for the miracle of new life!

""She is very small. Her uterus doesn't have the ability to hold one, let alone two, children," Ms Maia told the Jornal do Brasil newspaper.

But Marcio Miranda, a lawyer for the Archdiocese of Olinda and Recife in north-eastern Brazil, said the girl should have carried the twins to term and had a caesarean section."

Which is why you should never get medical advice from the Catholic Church's lawyers.

An 80 pount nine year old carrying twins. No doubt this is one of those instances when John McCain would put "life of the mother" in air quotes.

BTW, if you care to see what the Freepers "think" about this sort of thing, here it is:

"Okay, if you care to hear an explanation for my comment, neither of us were there. There is a 99.9% probability that this little girl was truly raped. Maybe 100%. My presumption is indeed that she was. But unfortunately the 9 year old of today is not the 9 year old of 20 years ago, and kids are getting sexual knowledge long before they or their bodies can handle such knowledge. I believe this child was raped. But I do not believe every pre-puberty child had nothing to do with sexual activity they went through. Take for instance the 9 year old father in England. Our sick society is hurting these babies in more ways than we can count. I know of a man in our area that spent some time for statutory rape of a 13 year old. He was 100% guilty. No doubt. But the little girl was flirtatious, wore mini-skirts and low cut tops and lots of makeup. She even went on one of the national talk shows like Oprah talking about her experience. That 13 year old was not truly raped and fully knew she was seducing this man. Was he still guilty. Absolutely, and he should have done the time he did and probably more as an example not to have sex with 13 year olds. But, he was not alone in his guilt.

This 9 year old, in all likelihood, was 100% a victim. It isn’t being self-righteous, however, to point out where our society has taken itself."

Oh, extremist ideas far outside the American mainstream? Yep, that's the Republican Party of today.

[Starry Messenger]

106. I. Have. No. Words.

[Arkansas Granny]

35. If this young girl had been forced to carry to term and had not survived the experience,

would they have considered that murder also, or would that also fall under "the law of God"? I just can't wrap my head around this.

[ejpoeta]

37. i'll guess that it would be god's will. probably the girl's punishment

for being raped. i remember hearing once that women are supposed to be the brakes. men are men. and women are supposed to be pure and act appropriately to keep the men in line. really makes me ill to think how some people think.

[emmadoggy]

46. The thing is..

I'm quite sure that a nine-year-old body could not sustain a twin pregnancy - most likely she wouldn't have made it further than 20 or 22 weeks (if that) before going into very preterm labor wherein both babies would die and the girl would be at serious risk as well.

Yeah, that's a great outcome, huh? The church's expectation on this one is barbaric. :grr:

[MineralMan]

39. The moment churches meddle in the law,

they are wrong. They may freely dictate their positions to their members. When they attempt to dictate to others, they need to be harshly rebuked.

[DinahMoeHum]

40. The CC in Brazil can take their crucifix. . .

and imitate a certain sexual action in The Exorcist

A 9-year old girl raped, and THEY want her to be a mother already? Sheesh.

:evilfrown:

[mrs_p]

41. as an ex-nun

and recovering catholic, it's hard to see the difference b/w the rcc and the taliban sometimes.

[RaleighNCDUer]

42. And thus, the church creates one more unbeliever. nt

[liberalsince1968]

49. This is the TRUE face of the Catholic Church.

[Catherine Vincent]

50. "Police said the stepfather has been jailed since last week."

That sick pedophile should be in prison!

[Le Taz Hot]

54. Where the fuck was THE CHURCH

when this CHILD was being raped???? I hate religion.

[moggie]

55. Probably busy raping other kids

Oh sorry, we're not supposed to say that, are we?

[get the red out]

64. Why not?

It's their established track record isn't it?

[SurfingScientist]

58. Incredible.

A *9yo* rape victim gets an abortion, and the catholic
church spews misanthropic fundamentalism. :mad: Once more, they show that
they systematically advocate child abuse, shortly after endorsing a
notorious holocaust denier. :grr: No change from back in the day when they
played well with the Nazis. :nuke: These guys have no business in the 21st century. :hurts:

[BurtWorm]

59. The church is a monster. No better than the rapist.

[noonwitch]

60. It's rape. A 9 year old can't consent.

It's incest if it's blood relatives. Incest can also be rape, but it can be just consensual fooling around between cousins or siblings.

[get the red out]

61. I hope there is never again a nuke used

but if there is, it should be one small one in the center of the Vatican.

[Crunchy Frog]

63. Fuck Brazil's Catholic Church.

With baseball bats.

[RandomKoolzip]

67. Fuck religion. n/t

[Warpy]

73. Ms Miranda needs an education

in what a pregnancy with twins would do to a nine year old child's body.

These witless asshats simply still do not consider females to be fully human, no matter that they'll use female mouthpieces like Miranda to spew their shit. The nine year old is an animated flowerpot to them, with no life or rights of her own.

[noiretextatique]

77. the 15-week pregnancy posed a serious risk to the 79.2 lb girl

if the pregnancy posed a serious risk to her at 15 weeks, clearly she could not carry the twins to term. the church's position totally ignores the risk the pregnancy posed to this girl's life.
:puke:

[get the red out]

93. She's just a little girl

they probably just wanted her to die. With the Priesthood's vast experience with females, and their well-known respect for them, they probably figured the 9 year old seduced her poor innocent step father, like the natural little slut she is! So she is useless to them and should die as God intends!

The Priests have many, many uses for little boys though. I am sure they hoped she carried two baby boys, which they would look forward to "educating".

[ravenna_windream]

81. this story

just boils my blood! im sorry.im pro-choice and i'm beyond words for this story. especially the fact that they treat her as if she is lying about her rape by the step-father. and they make her out to be bad in the story just because she aborted. morons! Oh my goddess! i feel so awful for her. she's the victim! she is only 9 and has been raped by someone who is supposed to be her family and not only that has to experience all these awful things in relation. i feel awful for her and cannot imagine how traumatized the poor child is. that church is really messed up.

[BattyDem]

82. Nine?!?!?

:cry: :grr:

[Judi Lynn]

86. Brazil: Excommunications in case of raped girl, 9

Brazil: Excommunications in case of raped girl, 9

BRADLEY BROOKS, Associated Press Writer

March 5, 2009 10:17 AM

RIO DE JANEIRO (AP) - A Roman Catholic archbishop says the abortion of twins carried by a 9-year-old girl who allegedly was raped by her stepfather means excommunication for the girl's mother and her doctors.

Despite the nature of the case, the church had to hold its line against abortion, Archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho said in an interview aired Thursday by Globo television.

''The law of God is higher than any human laws,'' he said. ''When a human law - that is, a law enacted by human legislators - is against the law of God, that law has no value. The adults who approved, who carried out this abortion have incurred excommunication.''

Health Minister Jose Gomes Temporao rebuked the archbishop, saying, ''I'm shocked by two facts: by what happened to the girl and by the position of the archbishop, who in saying he defends life puts another at risk.''

More:
http://www.newspress.com/Top/Article/article.jsp?Section=WORLD&ID=565539067350354349

[noiretextatique]

88. insane and appalling

:wtf:

[moggie]

100. Actually, I hope more people get excommunicated

Specifically, I'd like to see thousands upon thousands of people writing to the church to say "I support the doctors who performed this abortion, and I'd have helped in any way I could, so please excommunicate me too". Not just in Brazil, but worldwide. DUers: if you're a lapsed Catholic, or an active Catholic for whom this case is the final straw, don't stay silent about it: tell your bishop that you want out, and don't take no for an answer. If they're faced with a groundswell of excommunications, perhaps some good could come of this appalling situation.

[trotsky]

107. I would love to see something like that too.

The church would be forced to adapt, or suffer such massive losses that they'd collapse. That is, if there are really as many liberal Catholics as some claim there are.

[moggie]

109. FX: sound of crickets n/t

[moggie]

97. But not the stepfather

They'll excommunicate the people helping the girl, but not the bastard who repeatedly raped her! And this:

The law of God is higher than any human laws

That's the argument used by people who murder abortion doctors - and this is an archbishop, telling his followers that they can ignore secular laws. If only people would come to their senses, and sweep this "church" into the dustbin of history, where it belongs.

[JerseygirlCT]

103. That's the part that really got me choked up and angry

So a necessary abortion - necessary to save the life and health of the unwilling and horribly victimized girl results in excommunication for the mother of the victim.

The rapist? Apparently all is forgiven.

It's sick.

[Dorian Gray]

104. This story confirms my nightmare

I stay quiet on abortion debates because I realize it is a choice that people make, but I don't personally like it, and I would not personally choose to do it. However, if my nine year old child were pregnant because she was RAPED (which is what this was!!!!), I would take her to have an abortion. She would never know she was pregnant, nor would she understand the operational procedure that was done to her. A pregnancy of this nature would be detrimental to the health and well being of a nine year old child.

Reading this story truly confirms my worst nightmare. The poor, poor baby having to go through all of this.

[charlie]

108. Deluded nitwits

It's still a mortal sin to wrap your dingus in latex, but this bishop's ambulance chaser can blithely insist cutting a nine-year-old open would've been the right thing to do. No doubt the Pope concurs. And neither of them has to worry about getting chased into the foothills by pissed off mobs.

It's sick the way these assholes are indulged.

[54anickel]

110. The stepfather "murdered". That commandment they refer to is about "murder".

Murder is the criminal act of killing.

That stepfather committed a heinous crime that killed this child's sense of innocence, trust, and love. He killed her sense of self-respect, dignity and humanity. He killed her "childhood".

The girl underwent a medical procedure to begin the healing and recovery from what was inflicted upon her. Much of what was killed cannot be resurrected and she will carry the scars of this ordeal for life.

My understanding is that the spiritual intent of that "law of God" under the new covenant goes far beyond the ending of a life to include physically, emotionally and spiritually harming someone. I believe the church, in their response, is guilty on all three of these accounts.