Abortion an excommunication: How it works

[TechBear_Seattle]

I am a bit rusty in my Catholic dogma, but I'm sure that if I get anything wrong, I will be firmly corrected. :hi: Keep in mind, I am presenting Church doctrine, not personal belief. Keep that in mind when you aim your flame throwers. I do not agree with this doctrine, but this is the thought process behind it.

The only possible get-out-of-Hell-free card comes by holding to Roman Catholic doctrine and participating in Roman Catholic sacraments. Sin, by definition, is a violation of Catholic doctrine, and comes in two flavors: venal, or minor sins, and mortal, or major sins. The distinction between these is that commission of a mortal sin automatically condemns the person to Hell. A person who is "in a state of mortal sin" cannot receive communion, cannot be ordained to Holy Orders, cannot get married, cannot receive confirmation. Catholics who know that someone is in a state of mortal sin are not supposed to associate with that person, engage in business with that person or otherwise have anything to do with that person. The sinner, by his own actions, has separated himself from the communion of the faithful; that is to say, he has excommunicated himself.

The one and only sacrament that is available is absolution, aka confession. By giving a heart-felt account of his actions, expressing genuine regret and contrition, promising to make every effort to avoid sin in the future and undertaking actions representative of this promise, the person's sin will be absolved, he will be restored to the community of the faithful and may once again partake of the Church's sacraments and the promise of Heaven they convey.

Ok, about abortion. The Church holds that life begins at conception, and that any deliberate act that ends a life is murder. Therefore, abortion is murder, and all persons involved in an abortion procedure are involved in murder and thus have committed a mortal sin. As with any person in a state of mortal sin, these people are considered to have excommunicated themselves and thus are cut off from all the sacraments except absolution. To receive absolution, they would have to express genuine regret and contrition and promise to make every effort to avoid sin in the future. Those who will not do this -- a doctor who believes that women should not be forced to carry their rapist's child, a victim of incest who refused to be mother to her own siblings -- are seen as willfully preferring mortal sin to the grace of God. They are excommunicated, not by any priest or bishop, but by their own actions.

I believe this is wrong, narrow-minded, short-sighted, ignorant, superstitious and worse. But the Roman Catholic Church never bothered to ask my opinion in the matter.

Anyway, I hope this helps to bring a bit of understanding to the matter.

[pnwmom]

1. So, as you understand it, would any mortal sin incur the same kind of

automatic ex-communication as they've said applies to the mother of the 9 yr. old and the doctors?

So, for example, the stepfather, if he raped the child, is also automatically ex-communicated?

Or is it just certain mortal sins?

[babylonsister]

2. My s-i-l had her marriage annuled for the right price.

They did have a gorgeous child out of this. He's now about 30.

It only depends on the price sometimes.

[pnwmom]

3. I wonder why non-Catholics care if the Catholic gets an annulment.

It's the only way for a divorced Catholic to marry again in the Church. I don't see why the non-Catholic spouse, like RFK Jr.'s ex-spouse, would care. The spouse is free to marry again without going through any proceeding.

My parents had several children (all of whom are adults now) but their marriage should have been annulled -- it was never a real marriage in the first place. (He was gay.) My father wasn't interested in cooperating, however, so my mother couldn't get one.

On edit: I'm wondering why you posted about the annulment in a thread about abortion and ex-communication. Is this a general anti-Catholic thread?

[babylonsister]

4. No. I posted as a friend of a very devoted Catholic who learned

how lame it was.


Sadly, her father tried to disown 4 kids after 39 years of marriage. He wanted to get married 'legally' again in the Catholic Church. It didn't work.

[pnwmom]

5. Children in an annulled marriage are NOT disowned, and they are NOT

considered bastards by the Church. This is a common misconception. That father was a jerk, I believe you. But the annulment process has nothing to do with the children of a marriage.

A Catholic annulment doesn't affect the civil legal status of the children or the parents. An annulment declares only that the parents didn't have a "sacramental" marriage.

The validity of a Catholic marriage has little to do with how many years it lasted or how many children it produced. My parents were legally married for almost 30 years -- but my father had been in the closet (and involved with other men) all that time. My mother wouldn't have married him if she had known he was gay. Thus, they never had a sacramental marriage. An annulment would have recognized that -- it wouldn't have affected us children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annulment_(Catholic_Church)

Marriages annulled under the Catholic Church are considered as ab initio, meaning that the marriage was invalid from the beginning. Some worry that their children will be considered illegitimate if they get an annulment. However, Canon 1137 of the Code of Canon Law specifically affirms the legitimacy of children born in both valid and putative marriages (objectively invalid, though at least one party celebrated in good faith).

[Marrah_G]

7. The annulment process is truly a joke.

It's right up there with the purchase of indulgements.

My feelings on the Catholic church are very mixed. The Vatican does more damage then it does good. Cardinals turn a blind eye to mass child rape and are rewarded and honored for doing so (cardinal Law).

Yes...on a local level a church can do so much good. I have affection for the community. My parents are devout Catholics who actually walk the walk.

Just thinking about it all brings tears to my eyes.

The 9 year old girl story to me is just inhumane and unforgivable.

I do not know how any rational, thinking, intelligent human being will be able to excuse the excommunication of her mother but NOT of her rapist.

[pnwmom]

8. I agree, the statement of the Vatican clerk was inexcusable.

Both because the mother and doctors acted in the best interests of the 9 year old -- and because it conveyed the incorrect impression that, theologically, the rapist wasn't guilty.

However, the rapist is really in no better standing with the Catholic Church than the mother or doctors. By committing a mortal sin (and apparently years of them), he has also separated himself from the Sacraments of the Church, except for the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession and Absolution).

[Marrah_G]

9. The Vatican has been on the wrong side of humanity too many times and refuses to evolve.

I think for the Catholic church to survive in any meaningful way in the US, they will need to split from the Vatican.

I was raised in the Catholic church but never truly believed. I did end up finding a faith that matched my beliefs so I do understand the value of religion in ones life. I also come from a VERY devote Irish catholic family.

I don't speak against the church gleefully, but rather with a heavy heart. I have fond memories of the church growing up. However, those memories are tarnished by the actions of the church hierarchy, who are in my opinion, corrupt, greedy and incredibly UN-christlike.

I thought my disgust could not get any greater after Cardinal Law was given a reward with a place of honor in the Vatican for his criminal cover-up of the mass rape of young boys including my own relatives.

But it has indeed grown with the churches reaction to the rape of a young girl that would rather see her dead then have an abortion of a pregnancy brought on by rape.

The church speaking against condoms in African has killed and orphaned an unknown number of human being. Uneducated and in desperate poverty they listen to the authority of the church. No souls are being saved....just more suffering by the innocent.

Ugh...this topic leaves me so torn. I know the good that people of the Catholic church do and it is so difficult to reconcile with the corrupt practices in Rome.

[pnwmom]

10. I have much the same feeling as you do, Marrah. It's a tragedy.

So much good has been overshadowed by so much evil.

[Marrah_G]

11. And I know how painful it must be to you

My parents stick to their faith, they walk the walk. I respect them for that.

But I remember the look on their face when told my parents that my ex husbands generation of his family were the victims of one of the priests arrested here in Mass. The look of shame on their face and my father's surprising admission that Father Porter sat one seat in front of him in the Seminary. It was not the crimes of the individual priests that is so damning, but rather the response from the church and from Rome that has let so many people down.

I think the time is coming where American Catholics will need to make a choice.

[pnwmom]

12. I would welcome a split that joined the progressive Catholics with

the progressive Episcopalians. Let the hardliners in both form their own separate church.

[Marrah_G]

13. I agree

When my children were young most of my in-laws switched to the Episcopal church. My kids went with their grandmother sometimes and the female Pastor went out of her way to respect my religion in relation to my children. I was made to feel very comfortable there when I visited.

[Marrah_G]

6. I cannot imagine any of my catholic relatives agreeing with this decision

In my opinion the Vatican makes itself more irrelevant every time it opens its mouth.

Not long ago Massachusetts was 50% catholic.... 90 % of the people I grew up with were catholic.

Now it is down to 36% and falling every year.

The Pedophile priest tsunami here did alot of damage...even touching my own family with lasting effects.

In my opinion the American Catholic church will need to split from Rome if it hopes to stay alive and relevant in peoples lives.