I can understand atheist attacking catholics but from fellow so called Christians

[AlphaCentauri]

It's a shame that they are using the same bible

[liberal N proud]

1. I grew up Catholic in a very protestant town

A small town. There were 3 of us who were Catholic among the 40 others in my class. We were ridiculed all the time. I remember the Baptist being the worst.

Funny thing happened when we all grew up, one of the Baptist girls got pregnant AFTER high school was ostracized by the church and ended up marrying a Catholic.

[tanngrisnir3]

2. Huh? What does that even mean?

[LittleClarkie]

3. I've heard more of that crap specifically aimed at Catholics

from Fundamentalists than I ever did from atheists, who generally have something to say about all of Christianity but not so much about individual denominations.

I remember reading a pamphlet from someone talking about saving their family from Catholicism, and another calling it idolatry. Some of these born again Christians forget where they originally heard about God in the first place.

[AlphaCentauri]

17. agree, atheists tent to use science and humanism to justify their criticism

about the hierarchy of the catholic church, fundamentalist on the other hand attack catholics in general to keep their members united and fearing their made enemy

[JerseygirlCT]

29. I have, too.

Beginning with the idea that Catholics are not Christian. Always makes me wonder just how big the gap in their knowledge of religious history is.

[rurallib]

4. Elucidate please

BTW - I don't think they use the same bible

[AlphaCentauri]

8. a stripped version of the bible won't change anything n/t

[Why Syzygy]

39. It's not the same Bible

It's not the same Gospel. And it certainly was not the beginning of Christianity.

Even given those facts, as a moderate Believer, I don't believe in "attacking" Catholics. I was raised Baptist and ended up marrying a Catholic! - and later divorcing. Their church hierarchy, however, is fair game.

*I'm no longer any denomination.

I would be happy to explain the issues other denominations have with the Catholic STATE, if there's interest, but I'm not interested in flame wars.

ETA: I do want to say something about my youth. My dad was a Baptist minister. We were NEVER taught that homosexuality was a sin, or to treat them any differently. My sixth grade teacher was a gay man that had attended the same Baptist college with my parents! We were always taught that other races were equal in every way. No discrimination whatsoever. However, I was discouraged by my Grandmother to not associate with Catholics. I heard it all from her. I didn't listen to her. That went against the very teachings I had at home and in our church.

[struggle4progress]

41. No: Catholics and Protestants use the same New Testament

Catholics and Orthodox recognize certain additions to the Old Testament that Protestants do not recognize

[phantom power]

5. Recorded history is *mostly* episodes of theists attacking each other.

[ananda]

6. Do atheists attack Catholics?

Most atheists I know are intelligent, thoughtful,
caring people with highly admirable social,
political, and economic goals.

They don't waste their time attacking other people.
Instead, they tout and understand secular humanist
ideals which would benefit all humans and the
planet. I sympathize and empathize with their
beliefs as a theistic humanist.

In fact, I would say that many many Christians,
including Catholics, hold reasonable humanist
views.

It's the pseudo-religionists I have issues with..
and no matter what THEY call themselves, I don't
consider the narrowminded, ignorant, hatefilled
funies either Christian or good.

[LittleClarkie]

30. The only one's I ever saw attack Catholics directly were on usenet

and, well, that's usenet for you. They'd call them Cat-licks. Really mature, no?

[liberalmuse]

7. I love Catholics.

Most of my very good friends were raised Catholic, and the Catholics I met in Salt Lake were absolutely wonderful. I adopted a couple Catholic families growing up in Mormonville. I just can't abide their religion, or their clergy. Advocating that a 9 year old be forced to bear the child of her rapist or face excommunication is not only indefensible, it's horrific beyond comprehension.

[Warpy]

9. The Catholic hierarchy is ripe for criticism

and will continue to get it. If you can't take having everybody from Bishops on up to the Pope catching flak for their stupid decisions regarding the lives of women, especially, then perhaps you should avoid clicking on those threads.

[eShirl]

10. well, remember why/how Protestantism began... (n/t)

[moggie]

11. "So called Christians"?

There you are, then. They're not true Christians, so who cares what they think?

[AlphaCentauri]

18. many So called Christians don't think Catholics are Christians n/t

[moggie]

32. Do you think they shouldn't do that?

You feel you have the right to label other people as not true Christians, so shouldn't they have the same right?

[Strong Atheist]

12. Here is my take on this:

The catholic church is huge and very old. Therefore, when people look for examples of things they disagree with in christianity, it is the easiest to pick from because is it so big and has such a long history. Other groups (many of which split off from the catholic church) are much more modern, and tend to be smaller, so there is less to look for. The catholic church is referred to so often because it is the standard for large and ancient christianity...

... an honor, of sorts...

[trotsky]

13. You haven't really studied much history, have you? n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

19. I don't think studying history will make good catholics monsters, does it?

[Goblinmonger]

23. Depends on your definition of "good catholics" now doesn't it?

I mean, technically, those that have anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-condom, anti-women views are technically in line with the RCC and the dogma put forth by the Holy See, aren't they. I would argue that if you are pro-life you are not being a "good catholic."

[AlphaCentauri]

24. good catholics will educate their daughters to not have abortions

probably that would include the use of condoms and the pill, but also good catholics won't interfere with the decision of a muslim or buddies woman to have an abortion or to use pills. That's their choice.

[Goblinmonger]

25. Good catholics will NOT

tell their daughters to use condoms or the pill. That would be a mortal sin.

[AlphaCentauri]

42. 88% of Catholic Physicians, Would Prescribe Birth Control

93% of Physicians, Including 88% of Catholic Physicians, Would Prescribe Birth Control
http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?DR_ID=29931

Catholic groups call on pope to end contraception ban
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/26/2315180.htm

Survey Finds Catholics Support Birth Control, Ordaining Women
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4284455.html

CATHOLIC SURVEY HITS BIRTH CONTROL
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70F1FFE3E5F1B728DDDA10894D1405B818FF1D3

:-)

[Goblinmonger]

43. And your point is.....?

Tell me what the holding of the church is and then we'll talk. If you don't want to waste the time, there it is: It is a mortal sin.

[moggie]

36. The Vatican is against the death penalty

That's one issue where I agree with them. But as far as I know they don't say "Catholics shouldn't execute people, but the rest of you can go right ahead, we're cool with that". After all, if you believe that something is intrinsically evil, you'll believe that it's evil no matter who does it. Was Mother Teresa a good Catholic? Because she certainly was unequivocally and vocally against abortion regardless of whether the woman was Catholic: notably after the Indo-Pakistani war of 1971, in which there were hundreds of thousands of rape victims.

[Goblinmonger]

14. You do know there is a HUGE batch of Christianity

that does not consider Catholics Christian, right?

And I really must have missed something.

[AlphaCentauri]

20. yep, and they inherited their bible from the catholic church n/t

[Goblinmonger]

21. Who inhereted half of it from the Jews.

Is this just a big pissing match, then, that has you bothered? I don't get it.

[Boojatta]

26. It's not exactly half. It's one of two parts.

[ZombieHorde]

27. Unless your are Mormon or Gnostic, then it is one of more than two parts. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

37. Well, proportionately not all that huge

But they are loud and ugly, for sure.

Not to mention quite uneducated about Christianity and history.

[Marrah_G]

15. I'll vent my disgust at the hierarchy of the Catholic Church with good reason

And at the same time respect and admire what I see on a local level.

But if you do not think the Vatican is wrong on the 9 year old rape victim, on condoms in Africa, on pedophilia (actions not meaningless words) then you are condoning such reprehensible and harmful beliefs and actions.

[Goblinmonger]

22. Amen, in a figurative sense.

And toss in their treatment of gays and the repression of women.

That is why I could no longer stay in the Catholic Church even as a means to provide a community for my kids after having attended seminary and being in a parish with a relatively liberal priest after long ago given up the belief in any god. I could no longer give my money and my numbers as support to such a horrible organization.

[Occam Bandage]

16. Yes, there is no history of Christians attacking each other. None at all. nt

[LittleClarkie]

31. The OP doesn't say there is no history. They say it is a shame that it happens.

Sort of like saying it is expected to have Republicans attacking Dems, but it is a shame to watch Democrats attacking Democrats.

Attacks from the outside are expected. Attacks from within a group is sort of like watching your family fight.

[Boojatta]

34. Yes, there is a history of Christians attacking each other.

However, it's important to understand who was responsible for starting this history of conflict. It was a brusque and confrontational man: Jesus.

[LittleClarkie]

38. I kinda liked his style though

No bullshit.

[JerseygirlCT]

28. Where are these attacks on Catholics?

Unless you are referring to attacks on the PTB in the RCC. Who most American Catholics would insist do not represent them.

So I'm not understanding: how is that they can disassociate themselves from the bishops and cardinals and the pope, yet, any attack on the same is a blatant attack on Catholicism and on them, personally?

[LittleClarkie]

33. I've read pamphlets, as I said up thread, where the writer bragged that they saved their kin

from becoming Catholic idolaters. Fundamentalists mostly seem to have issues with the Catholic denomination.

[JerseygirlCT]

35. Oh them.

Somehow I thought you were referring to the anger surrounding the Brazilian bishop...

Yes, absolutely there is plenty of that. Ignorant, uneducated people who don't even understand whence their own version of Christianity came. I'm not sure what's to be done about that, though. Hard to fight that kind of stupidity.

[Evoman]

40. What? Fights between catholics and protestants? Inconceivable!

[Deep13]

44. I criticize Catholicism...

...but I try not to "attack" Catholics as a group.

FWIW, many Protestants consider themselves to be the only true Christians. Consequently, they do not view Catholics as "fellow Christians."

[Random_Australian]

45. Why can you understand atheists attacking catholics?

Either your definition of "attack" is odd, or your ideas about atheists.

[heidler1]

49. Hating Atheists seems perfectly OK with no concern with facts.

Why people can't acept that human meaness toward other humans is natural no matter if your religious or not. However some religions control meaness better than other religions. IMO the Buda oriented Nirvana would help. If Atheists or other groups tend to have higher than average IQs This could cause contentment and less hate or envy in that group.

[Why Syzygy]

50. We should really put to rest the notion

that Atheists, in general, have an intellect superior to religious people.
Thanks to our friends at the Mensa society, they provide the answer.

Mensa Survey

Christian

Catholic: 21.4%
Protestant: 17%
Anglican: 9.6%
Unspecified Christian: 5.9%
TOTAL: 53.9%

Religious - Non-Christian

Jewish: 2.3%
Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu: .6%
Unconventional: 6.1%
TOTAL: 9.0%

Other

Agnostic: 6.2%
Atheist: 5.5%
Skeptic, misc. against: 5.7%
None, unaffiliated, lapsed: 5.1%
Undecided, searching, sometimes: 4.7%
Humanist, individualist, life, nature, hedonist, eclectic, etc: 5.4%
Ambiguous, unclassifiable: 4.5%
TOTAL: 37.1%

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/mensagod.html

[rrneck]

51. As a former

member of Mensa, the poll results are neither surprising or pertinent to me.

A high IQ isn't all it's cracked up to be. I'm living proof it doesn't make your rich, popular, or good looking. As a matter of fact, I rode a motorcycle a hundred miles in the rain to Memphis Tennessee, (one of the most traffic accident prone cities in the country) to take the test. That might call into question the validity of a high IQ under any circumstances.

I read years ago that political and business leaders were generally average when it comes to "intellectual IQ", whatever that is. But they almost all scored very high in "social IQ". I wonder how religious leaders would fare when tested for their social IQ? I bet they'd blow the curve for everybody.

Is it possible to design a "faith IQ"? A lot of religions have tried. To my mind, all have failed, with disastrous consequences.

We can't measure faith any more than we can measure god.

We can only measure faith's results. What's the bible passage? "...you will know them by their works..."

[Why Syzygy]

52. I agree.

I see way too much emphasis placed on IQ. Ditto, it doesn't guarantee accomplishment. Higher IQs tend to have their issues with academia. There are many other factors involved in one's choice to pursue higher education. I don't believe education level achievement is correlated with IQ.

If Atheists want to argue that they represent a higher percentage of post secondary education, that is a plausible position. I know in which percentile my IQ falls, and I find it irritating for some to assume it is reflected in my choice of spirituality. It would be good if Atheists would stop claiming IQ superiority based on their choice of spirituality.

No wonder I enjoy your posts so much :D

[rrneck]

54. Thanks! Your're very kind. When

people invest a fair bit of effort in anything they naturally become pretty proud of it. Building the way you think or believe is pretty personal stuff no matter which side of the human experience you're working on, and just making the effort in this world of menu driven lives is a challenge. That effort deserves respect.

I have a sneaking suspicion that this whole knowing/feeling/proving/believing/certainty/faith thing is a big moving target.

[TZ]

56. What atheists are claiming they are superior intellectually?

I hear believers claim this alot, but have yet to see proof. Link? Or are you just bashing yet again.
BTW, if I ever see one of those stupid this group has a superior IQ post I always disregard it as political bs.

[Why Syzygy]

69. A lot of them do.

The post I originally replied to for one. I really don't care to continue a conversation where "Ignored" is tagging along. Carry on with your bragging. Your faith lies with believing in your own superiority. I know you need that.

[Why Syzygy]

72. I want to kick this post

:kick: A high IQ isn't all it's cracked up to be.
with the hope that it will be UNDERSTOOD.

[heidler1]

53. Take another look at the link you provided. In the survey 90% claimed to be Christian, but

but this 9 to 1 ratio does not show up in the results given. This is no doubt why this was said.
"Speculations might be somewhat hazardous, but at first glance, it is very tempting to infer that the brainier we are, the less likely we are to rely on conventional religious answers, or any religion at all. But it could be just a strong indicator that we tend to be more independent, rejecting the authority of God and Church in order to adopt some form of personalized spirituality instead. But considering the strong Christian tradition in Canadian society, it is curious that so many of us have obviously rejected our childhood faith in favor of atheism, agnosticism, apathy or just plain indecision."

In weighted percentages all forms of doubters would be 9 times the "Other" category. In other words Christian membership of Mensa would have to be 90% in order to prove your interpretation of the study.
http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/mensagod.html

[Why Syzygy]

55. It isn't my "interpretation"

It is posted exactly as presented. Sounds like you plan to continuing making the silly assumption that Atheists are "smarter". As I said, I know which percentile my IQ falls within. That's from a general population without regard to religion. It guarantees that my IQ is higher than a majority, including Atheists. If you choose to continue to make irrational assumptions, that's your choice.

[TZ]

57. Ah now I see.

You are claiming that YOU are smarter than everyone. If you were as smart as you claim you would know that ALL these IQ related studies and most of the tests are complete and utter bullshit.

[beam me up scottie]

58. Bingo. "It guarantees that my IQ is higher than a majority of the Atheists wherever they are."

I think they should create a scale to measure how delusional self-proclaimed "spiritual" people can become when they're only exposed to pseudoscience.

[Why Syzygy]

60. That had been stated and agreed. Catch up. nt

[cosmik debris]

59. How many of those Mensa members were from Beijing

Or Qatar, or Mumbai?

The article you linked to indicates that it was a sample of CANADIAN Mensa members.

The article also says that 90% of Canadians are Christian.

So in a country where 90% are Christian, only 54% of the Mensa members are Christian.

Hmmmm.

[PassingFair]

61. Please don't confuse him with reality and math.

He operates on faith.

:eyes:

[cosmik debris]

62. Well, it is pretty obvious that WS is no Mensa member! n/t

[beam me up scottie]

64. She just plays one on DU.

:rofl:

[varkam]

63. It's not that surprising, and it contradicts the point that you're trying to make.

In a country where nearly 80% of the population is Christian, you would expect to see them comprise the majority of any group (except maybe an Atheist Alliance somewhere). The real kicker is when you factor in the percentages of these sub-groups when compared with the general population. Seems to me that membership in Mensa is skewed extremely heavily towards non-belief when compared with the general United States population given that the self-identifying atheist / agnostic / humanist population probably doesn't break 20% when looking at the entire population.

IOW, it would seem that when comparing those results to the general population, a member of Mensa is more likely to be an atheist than your average dude on the street.

[smoogatz]

66. Excellent point.

[Why Syzygy]

70. One would conclude

from all the bragging by Atheists to being "smarter", that NO member of the top 2% in IQ would have faith.
It isn't so.

[varkam]

73. Only one interested in peddling strawmen arguments would conclude that.

And, again, your own poll seems to contradict the conclusions that you're attempting to draw from it.

[smoogatz]

65. It's a self-selecting poll.

Mensa people are joiners, or they wouldn't have joined Mensa. Religious people are also joiners--they seek the fellowship of like-minded others. Atheists tend not to be joiners, particularly--at least not in my experience.

[Why Syzygy]

71. In my experience,

they join in order to have access to intelligent fellowship. Most humans seek fellowship to some degree. They have 'silly' conventions. But, they can be assured that their interactions are with people who possess an ability to THINK. Marry into a family with a conversational aptitude of a post, and one might seek out a population with a deeper well of thought.

[Feron]

46. It's not difficult to understand.

Christians have different ideas about interpreting the Bible and salvation.

And generally speaking, each denomination thinks that their interpretation is the correct one. While some allow the idea that others may achieve salvation in other ways, following the Bible their way assures salvation.

[Critters2]

47. I'm descended from Huguenots.

And still waiting for that apology.

[smoogatz]

67. Me Too!

And I want my chateau and vineyards back, dudes.

[saltpoint]

48. In defense of a contrarian source, though, isn't that what makes

things lively and compelling?

The Judeo-Christian Bible is a vast funhouse of image-distorting mirrors, many darkened by time.

Lots of time.

There's no realistic case to be made for universal agreement on something as multi-layered and complex and contradictory as The Bible.

[Critters2]

68. I don't understand anyone attacking anyone for thinking differently.

Why would you find it an acceptable thing for atheists to do?