America becoming less Christian, study shows

[sabra]

Source: CNN

(CNN) — America is a less Christian nation than it was 20 years ago — and Christianity is not losing out to other religions, but primarily to a rejection of religion altogether, a study published Monday found.

Three out of four Americans call themselves Christian, according to the American Religious Identification Survey from Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut. In 1990, the figure was closer nine out of 10 — 86 percent.

One in three Americans consider themselves “born again” or “evangelical” Christians, while the percentage who belong to “mainline” congregations such as the Episcopal or Lutheran church has fallen.

One in five Americans say they have no religious identity.

Read more: http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/03/09/america-becoming-less-christian-study-shows/

[pleah]

1. Good! Now, maybe this country can finally move ahead instead of backwards. n/t

[hendo]

2. I don't like what you are implying NT

[Alexander]

12. That religious crazies have set our policies for years? She's right.

No religious text should be used to determine a nation's laws.

[GillesDeleuze]

24. That religion is silly

and should eventually fade away and be seen as a bad habit?

"Oh him? He's religious."

Or as something politicians would generally not like to share? "Its impolite to ask if a candidate believes in fairy tales."


Or dissolve away into moral teams... "Would you really let your daughter marry... a yankees fan?"

----

Its the future of religion. Either that, or Armageddon.

[JNelson6563]

46. Ok, how 'bout this test then?

IMO anyone who can read through the bible and consider it holy or enlightened (without cutting out big chunks of it) is worse then silly.

Julie

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

55. try reading

it from the last chapter to the first.

Revelation to Genesis.

[JNelson6563]

57. Either way you begin and end w/hallucination

I don't understand how anyone can read that stuff and believe it is holy/enlightened. No wonder the Catholic Church worked for so long to keep the bible out of the hands of the masses. There is no better recruitment tool to the world of atheism than the bible.

Julie

[byeya]

82. "Church Teaching" was/is the operative word on how the

Catholics are to view passages in the bible. Considering how these do-it-yourself; make-it-up-as-you-go-along baptists and pentacostals are concerned, the RC's position makes considerable sense out of the indefensible.

[RJ Connors]

160. And that was what the Catholic Church was concerned about

during the reformation. Oh geeze, if these yahoo's start reading the Bible it's hard telling what they are liable to come up with.

[JNelson6563]

171. I have to agree with that.

Well said.

Julie

[Upfront]

116. Well said Julie!

Hope things are well up in God's country. lol

[Patchuli]

207. That tells me you failed the comprehension test

if all you got out of the Bible you considered to be "silly" or "worse than silly."

[eridani]

222. There's a lot of good stuff in it and a lot of perfectly appalling stuff

Reading the Bible from cover to cover caused me to drop organized religion. I figured out I could rely on my own judgment to distinguish between the universalizm of the Book of Jonah and the murderous misogynistic tribalism in Genesis.

[Patchuli]

275. I don't care for the Old Testament much

but it has its lessons.

[eridani]

276. The OT is a story people moved away from worshiping a vicious tribal deity--

--and toward a concept of universal ethics involving treating everybody well, not just the members of your own blood lineage. I'm amazed that the author of the Book of Jonah didn't get lynched. It was written in the same era as the destruction of the northern kingdom by the Assyrians, who were fond of piling up heaps of skulls by the gates of the cities they destroyed with steles enumerating the various tortures deployed.

But the universal deity directs Jonah to preach to them, and refuses Jonah's requesst to trash Nineveh and slaughter every creature in it. After all, if the preaching is successful and the Assyrians were to repent and give up all that skulls and torture stuff, they would be forgiven. God also chides Jonah for wishing that children not old enough for moral reasoning be killed, along with animals that are incapable of such reasoning. This is the first assertion of animal rights in the Bible.

Quite a contrast with the God that instructed the Israelites to slaughter all animals, the men, boys and women who have "known" men, but to keep the girl children for themselves, no?

[spiritual_gunfighter]

258. I have read the entire bible

In Catholic school that was required, and I came away from that thinking "People actually believe this stuff" and thought it was hilarious.

[liberation]

264. Huh? Please do pray tell... what would be the "correct comprehension"

of a book with serious continuity issues, mostly due to the fact that is a mosh posh of at least 3 to 4 different traditions which predated Judeochristian cultures. The book of Genesis, for example, is based on at least different creation myths.

Under a purely literary point of view, the bible is a collection of badly written books. If you follow the bible from beginning to end, it turns out the Christian god has a serious case of schizophrenia. Anyone using such a silly book, describing the ramblings of a mentally unstable deity, to rule their moral compass deserves to be laughed at.

Disclaimer: I have read the whole bible at least twice (10+ yrs of Catholic schooling will do that to you). I only missed 20 points from my SATs, and I have a PhD. My reading and comprehension skills are fine, thank you very much.

[Patchuli]

274. You may have read it

but I don't think you got it. I had a Catholic upbringing and private Catholic schooling, thank you and never heard the Word that I heard as a a born-again Christian after rejecting the Roman Catholic faith. If you read the Bible expecting continuity like some kind of great novel, you missed the wisdom within it. Believe as you like. I will never laugh at you or tell you that you're silly because you believe differently than I.

[Strong Atheist]

Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[closeupready]

36. The door's over there.

n/t

[Deep13]

62. *delete* --misread previous post.

[closeupready]

71. Um, are you even responding to my post???? I wasn't talking to you.

I don't even understand what your post is supposed to mean, frankly.

I was responding to Hendo's post that he didn't like the implication of the first response to the thread. We here on DU don't exist to coddle the feelings of Christians or other religionists. My response, "door's over there" means, if we have to lie or check our thoughts in order to cater to your feelings, then the best you can do is leave the discussion because we have no obligation here to do so. There are those here who actually HATE religion. They are as entitled to speak their views as you are to speak yours.

[Deep13]

75. Sorry, I misread the response tree, or whatever it is called.

I thought you were responding to #1 and were suggesting that nonbelievers should just leave.

[closeupready]

79. Oh, no, not at all. I was just trying to say, people need to have thick skins,

rather than have everyone else walking on eggshells. Peace. :hi:

[polmaven]

254. So what you are really saying is

that people of faith should just leave rather than challenge a comment of a non believer?

Funny, I thought this was a "discussion" board.

[bananas]

96. We here on DU don't exist to coddle the feelings of Atheists or Agnostics, either.

"There are those here who actually HATE religion. They are as entitled to speak their views as you are to speak yours."

They're called Hatetheists.
Are people who hate Atheism entitled to speak their views?

:popcorn:

[ihavenobias]

97. They do as much as possible, so yes.

;)

[closeupready]

108. Yes absolutely. Just as long as I'm not offended.

:rofl:

[Zhade]

175. Atheism isn't a religion. But you're free to hate our lack of religion.

It's kinda silly to hate the absence of something damaging like the mind-virus that is religion (and all unwarranted belief in unproven things that lack any corroborating evidence), but you're still free to do so.

[bananas]

196. I don't hate your lack of religion.

I love you, man.
The universe loves you.
You're safe and warm on a planet that loves you.

[stlsaxman]

245. In the words of Lawton Smalls- "God loves you... DEAL WITH IT!!"

:rofl:

[PerpetuallyDazed]

251. Not entirely correct...

Atheism has a belief system (or "non belief" belief system) which constitutes itself as a religion if it is adhered to... moreover, agnosticism is the way to go as it's the most logical position.

But if you'd rather respond with your "feelings" than you've got a lot more in common with other religionists than you think. :)

[liberation]

270. Huh?

How can something that implies lack of belief (atheism) be a "belief system"? Atheism lacks any religious component, it is not a religion. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are welcome to perform whichever mental contortions you deem necessary though.

Also, what makes agnosticism the "most logical" position?

[PerpetuallyDazed]

277. A disbelief in God isn't based on logical proof

because God's existence cannot be proved nor disproved. As such, atheism is a faith-based belief system. That makes atheists no different from theists or other religionists.

Agnosticism is the more logical position because it claims either could be correct.

Also, I was reading that atheists frequently employ the whole "burden of proof is on he who asserts, not he who denies" logic for their position, but this is flawed because that's a legal maxim (applying to our judicial system) and not a logical argument. Do you know what I'm talking about?

[spiritual_gunfighter]

259. The last time I checked this isn't belief.net as someone said in another thread

I know liberals that are religious and that is their right, protected under law. I personally am an atheist but so be it. I just tend to think that liberals are free thinkers who have grown to think outside the circle of rigid and conservative thought. Something that I identify with atheism or lack of belief. I am confounded by some of the hyper-religious on DU and wonder where the free thinking ends and the rigid belief systems begin.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

279. I mostly hang out in GE

and rarely ever visit the other forums. If there are "hyper-religious" folk here, they must hide from me... :shrug:

I have noticed, however, lots of atheist, agnostic and "spiritually" minded (not necessarily religionist) people.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. religious in govt encourages bigotry and pacifying of non scientific ideas.

i for one like the implication

[Deep13]

64. Me too.

:thumbsup:

[pleah]

51. Where have you been the last eight years?

:shrug:

[Greyskye]

87. Maybe this?

[earcandle]

223. Oh can you post a copy of this on my

noodlebrain.com guestbook?  

or earcandleproductions.blogspot.com ?

Please?  that is so cool.

[Greyskye]

261. Feel free to snag it.

Not my own creation. :hi:

[sarcasmo]

166. Good!

[bjobotts]

224. Really America is finally coming to its senses. Christianity is not a political movement

[bjobotts]

225. It's a belief system which indoctrinates children as well as adults to it';s 'beliefs'

[bjobotts]

226. Morality is not solely a Christian idea baut these activists refer to themselves as the values voter

[bjobotts]

227. as if they have a monopoly on values.Keep demanding that "God said"..

[bjobotts]

228. And this "little black book says" as if it is some authoritarian truth .

[bjobotts]

229. Sooner or later judmental, condemning people spur resentment and rejection if not hatred.

[bjobotts]

230. It's the wrong frame to say America is becoming "less Christian" when in fact

[bjobotts]

231. America is rejecting the "branding" of how"Christian" is being distorted as ex-clusive

[bjobotts]

232. Its 'morality' vs 'dogma', and morality is all inclusive no matter your 'dogma'.

[polmaven]

256. Um, you DO realize

you can say more than one line per post, right?

[valerief]

248. The right-wing Christian adminstration stole their jobs and retirement savings.

Of course, the country is getting deJesused.

[Ilsa]

3. Becoming more European-like with respect to religion?

Or is that too grand of a generalization?

Alot of people fall off of church rolls for non-attendance.

[ComtesseDeSpair]

4. Awesome.

We're finally slowly emerging from the dark ages. The day that over 50% of America has "no religion" will be a glorious day indeed. If the religious zealots don't kill us all before then, that is.

[verges]

31. Not ALL people

who believe in God are zealots.

[ComtesseDeSpair]

38. No, but as long as religion exists...

people will be encouraged to not think for themselves, which leads them open to manipulation.

[joeglow3]

94. Frankly, the ignorance spewing from your post is amazing

Many people (all I know, except 1) go to church every week and are not the robots you seem to imply they are.

[byeya]

243. Less than 50% of Americans go to church each week and that

fact, coupled with the frequent change of religion among those who do believe, shows that organized religion does not have the deep hold on the citizenery that the political elites like to tell us it does. Slightly less than 20% have no ties with any organized religion.

[wysimdnwyg]

260. 50% is too generalized

"Less than 50% of Americans go to church each week..."

This may be true if you consider the entire country, but that number will vary wildly depending on the part of the country in which someone lives. My sister lives in Silicon Valley. Pure conjecture would suggest that far fewer than 50% of her neighbors attend church every week. I live in Tennessee, however. I would guess upward of 75% or more of the people in Tennessee attend services weekly.

Generalizations do not make a singular experience that differs from the generalization abnormal.



For those arguing over the validity of religion, consider this. The problem with organized religion is not the faith itself, but the organization of religion. From this confirmed atheist's view, there is no problem with people who choose to believe in a "higher being". The problem comes when this belief infringes on the rights of others. I do not choose to believe the same way as you.

Why should law necessarily follow your belief system and not one that is better for the community as a whole? Everyone will agree that murder and theft are wrong and should be outlawed. These laws do not consider professed faith of any kind and are equally applicable to all. Laws such as many that the religious right would have implemented would amount to creating a de facto state religion. This infringes on my right to believe differently. This is where we have problems.

We can have groups who believe in different ways, whether those differences are small, like those between Methodists and Baptists or significant like those between Christians in general and Atheists. There is no reason why law should follow any particular faith. What many here get excited about when we read things like the story in the OP is not that religion may be dying out (I do not believe for a second it is), but that more people are coming to the realization that the imposition of their belief system on others is wrong.

[intheflow]

105. Not all religions demand blind faith.

Not even all Christian denominations. There are many liberal, even progressive, religions out there that actually do encourage their members to think for themselves. You're confusing dogma with religion; religion can exist without dogma, but dogma cannot exist without religion.

[johnlucas]

213. People can be manipulated by anything

Religion is just one of the tools.
Supposed findings in science have led to just as many atrocities (the eugenics craze for one) as religion.

What I don't get by people who rail against religion is how they think propaganda of other types don't influence their views on the world. Somehow many of the non-religious think that trusting all in the abilities of mankind is better. But man is nothing more than a egomaniacal ape, a very self-important monkey. Human beings mess up & don't have all the answers. I don't fully trust religion NOR the supposed capabilities of human beings.

What folks don't realize is that life is painful & causes so much stress that people need comfort when faced with its negative sides. Religion will always exist until something replaces it to give peace of mind to the injustice of the world. Science just tells you the What & How. It can't really tell you the Why. Attributing all things to "natural selection" doesn't make anybody feel better when they're going through strife whether it's true or not.

Everybody operates on faith whether that's belief in self or belief in some outerworldly being. The fact that science advances is because there is the belief that humankind will eventually learn all of the mysteries of the universe through the series of tests. But is that really true? To this day, scientists can't really tell you why existence exists. What started all of this? I agree with the Big Bang Theory. Things in the universe have strong analogies which is the only way we had the ability to learn about it all (you can see the phases of the moon taking a tennis ball & a light bulb). They explain the aftermath but can they explain the cause? Every effect has a cause. What was the cause? Why would a Bang bang? Who banged it? What banged it?

Religion has a lot of mythology in it sure but even there are some universal truths which is why those religions survive. And there are many cases where someone's religious faith got them through times they may have not gotten through otherwise. There might be a reason for the need of a supposedly imaginary protective super-parent.

When I hear about people talking about "the Middle Class" & "Capitalism" & "the American Dream" that sounds a lot like religion to me. People believe in these concepts so strongly but did they ever inspect them for posterity? Why SHOULD people want to buy a house to be a homeowner with a mortgage? You're just paying rent to the bank, you're not REALLY a homeowner. Bank owns it & if you DO actually pay off the house, the land it sits on is not really yours as you'll find out when government decides to build something there. Plus unlike a renter you have to fix everything when it breaks. Why do people believe in soulmates & do people REALLY have to marry? The political process runs a lot on faith. How DO you expect someone who doesn't live like you do to truly care about what you go through? The money obstacles make sure only certain people run for office. Why do we expect honesty & dutiful service from them when there's not much penalty for messing things up?

I'm not ashamed to admit my vote for Obama has a lot of faith behind it. I can't really believe in much of the political scene so I'm just hoping that he'll do the right thing more often than not. I don't "know" he will, I just "believe" he will.

Militant atheists & proselytizing religious folks need to see how much they resemble each other. The great irony is that the only difference between them is the philosophy they're selling. Other than that, they're exactly the same. And the end of the day, it all comes down to the people themselves no matter what the subject.
John Lucas

P.S.: I'm not religious though I was raised in a religious family. I have respect for both religion & science. In both, lie the answers to the universe.

[RaleighNCDUer]

44. And not everyone who goes to Star Trek conventions dresses up in costume.

That doesn't make the Trek universe any more real.

[Ikonoklast]

129. You shall suffer eternally for your blasphemy.

Heretic.


:P

[RaleighNCDUer]

146. Yup.

'Q' will get me for that.

[Zhade]

177. Excellent reply.

NT!

[stopbush]

101. No, but they are all irrationalists.

The honest ones admit it.

[mike_c]

154. but all of them are delusional....

Supernatural beings with super powers only REALLY exist in comic books. Anyone who believes they exist in the real universe is delusional, at best.

Sorry, I have zero respect for delusion-based "faith."

[Zhade]

176. True. But unwarranted belief in unproven things that have no corroborating evidence is harmful.

An example of that - "Iraq has WMD, we gotta invade 'em!"

[Le Taz Hot]

5. Thank the goddess!!!

Science may live again yet!

[DavidDvorkin]

7. "Goddess" is no better than "God"

The problem isn't the specific religion. The problem is religion - belief in the supernatural. That's the opponent of science and reason. It doesn't matter whether the supernatural is given a male or female aspect.

[Ilsa]

9. Not necessarily. Alot of people of very pro-science

and still believe in a diety. For some, they are a yin and yang that exist peacefully with no cognitive dissonance.

[pattmarty]

26. Yeah, those are the "sane" ones accounting for only 2%.

[verges]

28. Can you back that percentage up ? Link please. nt

[pattmarty]

32. Jesus! Ever hear of satire? Has to be close though, to get your......

....dander up.

[Evoman]

104. Ha...being pro-science and religious is cognitive dissonance.

On edit: Maybe not...if you don't have the uncomfortable feeling that comes with dissonance, is it really dissonance? If you can partition your mind so thoroughly that their is no uncomfortablen feeling when you hold to diametrically opposite ways of thinking in your head, is it really dissonance?

I don't know.

[intheflow]

111. I don't see any dissonance in being both pro-science and religious.

The religious pro-science types I know reconcile the two by embracing the fact that they know they don't know everything, and use both science and religion to interpret the world around them and put meaning to their lives. They don't belong to dogmatic churches, nor are they of the "make the science fit the Bible narrative" group of fundie-crazy "scientists." For them it's more like, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." I mean, even Einstein believed in God!

[Zhade]

179. You don't? The former has facts on its side. The latter has none.

The very systems of thought are antithetical -- science looks for evidence to explain the universe, while religion makes answers up out of whole cloth. Science doesn't know everything, but religion doesn't KNOW anything. The two could not be more diametrically opposed.

And debunked pull quotes aside -- NO, Einstein did NOT believe in any gods.

[intheflow]

211. Do you have a link to Einstein saying he was an atheist?

[PassingFair]

252. How about this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/may/12/peopleinscience.religion

And this is only ONE of his personal letters on the subject:

snip> 'In the letter, he states: "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

Einstein, who was Jewish and who declined an offer to be the state of Israel's second president, also rejected the idea that the Jews are God's favoured people.

"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them." <unsnip

On edit: Here are more of his letters and a lecture.

http://www.skeptically.org/thinkersonreligion/id8.html

Einstein's "religion" consisted of him acknowledging
that he didn't know it all...

That's my personal definition of both agnostic (without knowledge) and atheist (without belief). Symantics that both boil down to "I don't know,
but I'm NOT just going to make stuff up or turn to mythology".

ACCEPTANCE is the core of atheism. We accept that no one KNOWS the answers to life's current mysteries, but we
are always open to evidence and facts.

[DireStrike]

119. How do you explain the existence of the universe?

Science cannot yet explain everything. Until it can, religion has a place with humanity, namely as a theory about how everything came to be. Whether the theory is good or not of course depends on the person and the specific theory/religion.

Please don't give me shit about the word "theory". I am aware of its scientific meaning. I'm not using it that way here. You can change my word to hypothesis, or paradigm, or guess, or whatever you like.

About the dissonance - I believe that humans are wired to be superstitious/spiritual/religious. It would not be uncomfortable if it were a part of us. I think even the most stoic atheist has some of the characteristics of a religious person, despite their best efforts to eradicate those irrational tendencies.

[Evoman]

122. I DON'T explain the existence of the universe.

Because I don't know.

I have no problems saying it. I don't feel a need to lie to myself in order to pretend I have an answer.

[DireStrike]

134. Congratulations.

However, many feel the need to consider that question, and some will take any answer just for the comfort. Where science has not yet tread, speculation runs wild. My only point is that it's not dissonant, because science generally does not address the question, and where it does there is always a gap separating known from unknown, or even unknowable.

[Silent3]

123. Why must a person have an explanation for the existence of the universe?

What's wrong with answering what you can as best as you can, and beyond that saying "I don't know"?

You say "Science cannot yet explain everything". That is true. It doesn't follow, however, that religion correctly explains any of what's left.

[DireStrike]

131. I never said religion was correct.

Or even more correct than saying "I don't know yet". But it is an attempt to explain. A poor attempt, in most cases.

I think the topic is important enough that you don't have to justify consideration of it. It's the biggest question you can ask, for pete's sake!

[Silent3]

139. Certainly it's an important question...

...but we were taking about whether science and religion conflict, or if they can exist harmoniously together. Filling in answers for the questions science can't answer with evidence-free, emotion-driven guesswork, and treating the result of that guesswork as some special, worthy-of-respect form of "knowing", some enlightened path to deeper understanding, doesn't mesh well with a scientific, rational worldview.

I do understand how people can compartmentalize their thinking to combine science and religion while steering clear of obvious cognitive dissonance, but that's not the same thing as a true lack of conflict.

[Zhade]

180. Fear.

NT!

[ElboRuum]

152. As a wise man once said...

...me...

"Just because our limited imaginations have a distinct and powerful desire for intellectual closure does not mean the universe must reveal itself at the whim of that desire, and neither does it mean that such a desire is necessarily in dire need of satisfaction. "I don't know" is often a much more productive answer than "I believe", it starts a conversation where the other ends one, and has the additional benefit of being both very often true and inspirational to those with a desire to seek out the answer."

[RaleighNCDUer]

156. Religion as a theory explaining the existance of the universe

is just as valid as the cave-man's theory of the angry man in the clouds explanation of thunder.

The simple fact of not understanding physical realities is not sufficient reason to jump to supernatural conclusions.

We have our limitations, but have been knocking them down for millenia. Religionists are still clinging to the angry man in the clouds theory after ten thousand years. I suspect that the final answers about the origins of the universe WILL be known and understood within a century.

And even then, people will still be murdering each other in the name of religion.

[liberation]

271. Minor nitpick, religion is a conjecture not a theory

Theory implies validation, which religion does not fulfill.

[laconicsax]

198. I hope you recognize that you are presenting a false choice.

Just because scientific inquiry hasn't uncovered every answer doesn't mean that religion has any answers at all. For example, just about everything the Bible says about the universe is wrong.

I invite you to name a single religion that has any actual answers or at the very least, one that has a creation myth that agrees with reality.

[Alcibiades]

206. Actually, science has done a much better job of that

than the non-scientific models that are the main alternative. In fact, more work has been done to improve our understanding of exactly that question in your lifetime than in all of prior human history. Some of the greatest minds in all of human history, people alive today, are working on this very question.

It is not the role of religion to explain everything, and if you think it is, then your theology is weaker than your cosmology. Evidence of our so-called irrationality should inspire us to seek to transcend our limitations, not surrender to bronze age barbarism.

[kristopher]

257. How do you explain the existence of god?

You don't even make the attempt to ponder the question, right? You accept an extra-natural presence as real with no thought of origins, yet you use that same unanswerable question (where did it come from?) with the expectation that it is somehow more meaningful when applied to a universe that is actually present before our senses.

At least we know it is actually there.

[Le Taz Hot]

11. LOL! I don't actually believe in a goddess.

I write it/say it merely to piss off "the faithful." :evilgrin:

[southern_dem]

164. I guess you could call me one of

the faithful and it doesn't piss me off at all. One of my religion teachers at my Catholic high school referred to God as "She". I thought it was pretty cool. :)

[pattmarty]

I totally agree with you, but I think the poster was using a little satire.

[Jester Messiah]

78. There are non-deistic religions.

Philosophies, if you will, that focus on how to endure and thrive in this world with a minimum of pain and a maximum of joy. These religions are not problematic.

[Silent3]

127. In such case I'd use the word philosophy then, not religion...

...at least for any philosophy which is non-supernatural in every respect, not merely with respect to the existence of deities.

If you don't have gods, but do have "spirits" or reincarnation or the like, that's still religion in my book.

[Zhade]

178. Yep. It's the belief in things with zero evidence that's the problem, not the form it takes.

NT!

[verges]

35. That really makes no sense at all! nt

[Democrats_win]

6. The "less 'christians' " were apparent when they lied us into wars and economic fraud.

The headline is really a double entendre. They are less "christian" in that they don't participate in these so-called "christain" churches. They are less Christian in that they act more like Satan than Christ.

[olddad56]

99. Bush won by getting the christian right vote. Less christain means less death and destruction.

[Zhade]

181. Pfft. Not even. Your comment is a No True Scotsman fallacy.

You're basically saying bad people can't be Christian -- which is, with all due respect, nonsense.

[Greyskye]

8. Couldn't hurt.

[NavyDavy]

15. this says alot about our Nation as a whole...only major industrial

country to still overwhelmingly believe in creatism

[pattmarty]

29. AND, not have a single payer universal health care system.

[8 track mind]

33. no kidding

it's a sad state of affairs when kids are taught that Jesus and Dinosaurs coexisted. I'm sorry, but if T-Rex was standing next to Jesus, the only thing that would be going through that ravenous beast's mind would be "lunch"

[brooklynite]

102. I've always wondered about this...

...its one thing to suggest that in the murky past of the Old Testament dinosaurs were still ambling around, but how some Fundamentalists can claim they were still around in the time of the Roman Empire has always escaped me.



(but imagine what the matches at the Roman Forum must have been like!)

[8 track mind]

109. LOL!

You found that picture!!!! I was going to post that exact one, but i couldn't find it! thanks!

:rofl:

You know the next picture in that coloring book should be a picture of Jesus hauling ass through the desert on foot, with the caption "Well kids looks like the tables have turned! After Jesus threw his sandals and a few rocks at the pea brained reptile with very sharp teeth, The hungry, green ill-tempered critter decided to procure it's next meal! Run Jesus Run!-- Coloring hints: Shit-my-robes brown, hemorrhaging red, ravenous green, terrified white, and omnipotent-my-ass yellow!"

[geardaddy]

115. Ewww...

The "Coloring Hints"

Flesh of Christ? Shouldn't that be bread colored. :eyes:

[tridim]

19. That chart is scary. Evolution isn't a theory, it's a fact.

I assume the 39% of Americans who answered "false" were answering based on "human evolution from primates" and not simply "evolution" which is demonstrable in the lab and in nature.

[onehandle]

144. I don't see anything on that chart about religion.

I think I know what you are implying, but I'm not sure.

Catholic schools teach evolution. But radical fundies don't.

So you can see the problem.

[Greyskye]

149. Bible Belt & Teaching of Evolution correlation

Yeah, I can see the problem all right.

[onehandle]

199. My nephews are being taught evolution in the most Republican county in Georgia.

This is in a public school.

I've asked friends about their kids experiences.

All have been taught evolution.

Now, Georgia is stupidly and solidly GOP. But evolution is taught here.

I really wonder how prevalent this is outside of fundy circles.

[barbtries]

239. interesting thing about that,

here in NC, which is green on the map, my son was given a "choice" about what to believe and the teacher implied or instructed that creationism was a valid "choice" as if it is a matter of opinion.

[dana_b]

197. that's embarrassing n/t

[byeya]

10. If humans have an inborn trait{debatable I know} it's the

acquisition of things and of power{if possible} and not religiosity. You don't often see community leaders denounce peoply for not acquiring enough but preachers are always warning against "backsliding" and other terms for straying from religion.
From the figures, you'd be justified in saying that many parts of Europe are "post-Christian".

[Solly Mack]

13. Promising

[SkyDaddy7]

14. PLEASE KEEP FALLING!

This is a very good sign! I saw a poll that said 41% of Americans thought the Theory of Evolution was a lie in 1994...And in 2006 it was 63%! This is very scary! Considering Christians spent over $30 million dollars to build a "Creation Museum" that shows children playing with dinosaurs! I know the Republican attack on science had a lot to do with this dumbing down of society so I can only hope this trend will reverse.

[Politicalboi]

50. And the Grand Canyon

Allowed books that said the canyons were created because of Noah's flood.

[onehandle]

16. So the vast majority are still Christian? And 85%+/- still have a religion?

Nothing will change anytime soon.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

30. No it wont

But this is still nice to hear about, but religion is so firmly entrenched in the fabric of our society that isn't going to change anytime soon but maybe one day in the far future it will die the death it deserves.

[AllentownJake]

17. Christian isn't a bad thing

Evangelical/Born Again is the bad thing.

[jkappy]

20. kinda agee... and not a good thing during a depression n/t

[GillesDeleuze]

25. so your saying

your xianity isn't bad. its everyone else?

[AllentownJake]

34. Any religion based on dogma

that asks people to blindly follow their leaders without questioning is bad.

Mainline Protestantism for the most part does not have that issue.

In addition evangelical/born again throws away 2000 years of church teaching for a theology that says if you do the right things in life you will be rewarded both here and in heaven. Any problem you have is the result of your sin and any problem others have is the fault of their sin. It does not focus on good works in response to the gift God gave you but a selfish self improvement plan.

[8 track mind]

47. exactly

"In addition evangelical/born again throws away 2000 years of church teaching for a theology that says if you do the right things in life you will be rewarded both here and in heaven. Any problem you have is the result of your sin and any problem others have is the fault of their sin. It does not focus on good works in response to the gift God gave you but a selfish self improvement plan."

Bravo! You could have not said that any better! That is the Jack T. Chick brand of Christianity.

[AllentownJake]

49. Went to an Evangelical Church for a year

It was nice at first. Good music, friendly people, pastor seemed real nice.

Than I started to not like some of the things I heard. Being a Democrat meant you hadn't seen the light yet amongst most of the congregation, Bush was the chosen leader, what made me leave is he said it was ok for the government to take children out of "Pagan" homes to make sure their souls were safe. Got up and walked out than and there.

I know these people pretty well. They are as apostate as it gets.

[Zhade]

183. Any religion based on dogma ... is bad.

Fixed.

[immoderate]

40. They are the enablers.

--imm

[AllentownJake]

42. Their leaders are critical components of the system

Falwell, Robertson, et all don't live like normal pastors in 3-4 bedroom houses.

[immoderate]

69. But it's the mass of Christians that make that possible.

Religious leaders are snake oil salesmen. Their job is to get people to eschew rational thought. The moderates provide support for the extremes. Do they perform some social services? Yes, but that's part of making the sale.

--imm

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

61. and hypocrisy abounds

I thought intolerance was just for republicans.

Not a personal comment to you AllentownJake, it just slipped out.

[stopbush]

98. It's a death cult based in fantasy, isn't it?

I look forward to the day that all religion goes the way of disco...

[haele]

148. Hey, disco is good for one thing...

The ARC now suggests using the song "Staying Alive" for CPR compressions.
And fantasy does have some uses. If nothing else, for some of the great artwork.
Fantasy, mass ritualization and tribal-like attitudes, however, tend to lead to Jonestown and other woes.

Haele
(wondering why the F*** she's even in this thread.)

[Patchuli]

209. Not every Christian born-again

is hateful and evil, folks. I interject that the hateful types are not really Christian except in word.

[bjobotts]

233. It's a borrowed religion from a much earlier Christ and rehashed as new.

[bjobotts]

234. Bill Mahr "Religiolus" (sp) is out on video with all the information

[bjobotts]

235. "In the Christian forest where the blind man sees, the faithful never need to know if he's lying"

[bowens43]

242. Yes, it is bad.

All religion is bad. All religions promote ignorance and bigotry.

[PufPuf23]

18. Less Christians but more polarized

between the sane and “born again” or “evangelical” insane.

The insane are the greatest threat to our Nation and the World.

Many are nice people but blind.

[salib]

21. This could be a backlash

After all, with American Protestant Evangelical views being shoved down people's throats, it irks some. I do not think these are new converts to atheism, non-belief, or whatever. Instead, it is a simple and visceral reaction to ridiculously bombastic pronouncements, changes to science and other curricula for their children, and political/cultural impacts. Most people I know feel it is an unbearable attack, and are reacting. So, they are now willing to say "no religious identity".

[byeya]

22. I don't think it is a backlash. The trend away from organized

religion has been evident and measured for decades; it's just that now, a M$M outlet has decided to do a story on it. The trend may be picking up speed, I hope.

[pattmarty]

23. It's about fucking time. Now maybe we can have actual intelligent......

....discussions about all kind of things.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

27. Great news!

Maybe we will see the day that Christianity and all other religions for that matter die the miserable death they deserve.

[keith the dem]

37. I think this is in response to Christianity being defined

by the right wing crazies! Who would want a religion that is against the rights of people who happen to be gay? This is a contradiction to the morals many of us learned in Sunday School.

Who would want to be part of a religion that ignores the reality of science?

There are many churches, including the oldest denominations in our country, that embrace gay rights and science, but their message has been ignored and outright censored by the MSM.

Please see this study by media matters: http://mediamatters.org/leftbehind/

[Scout]

39. good. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. yippy.

[T Wolf]

45. Considering the "origin" of religion, that being the bicameral mind which led early

humans to hear voices, it is expected that as the species evolves, this holdover will disappear - much like no-longer-needed organs.

But, because we have incorporated the superstition of religion so deeply into our psyches and societies, it will take a while longer for this vestige of our early history to fade away completely.

FYI - compare the religiosity of America with the rest of the world. We lag here, as well.

[Politicalboi]

48. Good

Maybe one day an Atheist President.

[Greyskye]

52. From your mouth to...

From your mouth to God's, uh... what you said.

[Diane R]

66. Yes. It's the last taboo in politics...a candidate who rejects religions.

[byeya]

244. Pete Stark, Dem Rep from CA, is openly atheist. I hope all the

others who reject imaginary sky-friends will make their views known.

[Ian David]

53. Thank god. n/t

[Khaotic]

54. Now ... can we move on?!

Past the adoration of Zombie Deity Scion?



I mean, it's FAR past time to realize that there are questions we don't have answers to, but to fucking quit making shit up!!!!

Just because science can't explain doesn't give anyone the right to reach for that "holy" book of contridicting fairy tales.

We get it! They lied! Two millenium of suckers! WE GET IT!!!!!

Time to pick ourselves up, realize the shit was made up to serve to the masses so the underprivilaged could "rise up" and have some kind of chance. I mean, there's a 'spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down' but after you grow up ya gotta realize why the sugar was put there. The resurection was a means to make the whole story 'go down.' Zero proof ... zero!

Time to get over it my friends.

Take all the red words for the great value they have, but know that those great words don't have any more deity value than the great words spoken by Yoda written by George Lucas.



Great words ... draw what you can from them, but don't make a deity out of Yoda!

Peace

[The Backlash Cometh]

56. If that is true, the right-wing Christians had more to do with turning off

people. Religion was never meant to be used politically, in the manner that the GOP used it like a weapon.

[ReliantJ]

60. Which brings backlash to those who like

to follow a religion, but keep their politics seperate :(

[Greyhound]

118. Yet it consistently has.

Where/whenever you look, organized religions are used to justify the ridiculous and the unjust. To convince people that it is right that they are deprived of the benefit of their labor to support "their betters" who do nothing, to exclude others from society for their lack of belief, to sacrifice their lives to fight someone else's battle.

[Lorien]

58. Hallelujah! nt

[Christa]

59. The sooner that dinosaur dies out, the better

many also profess to be religious, whilst it is only in name.

[graywarrior]

63. We were taken hostage by Christian whackos for eight friggin years

[skepticscott]

80. Eight? Try 28

The religious right has had their hooks in this country deeply ever since Ronnie Raygun got elected. They've held sway over the courts, the schools, the media, the arts, scientific research, medicine, you name it. They've exercised control over public policy based on irrational belief in a non-existent sky daddy, while so-called religious moderates and "progressives" have sat by wringing their hands and letting it happen.

[byeya]

86. Ike was pretty pious and the Dulles boys were downright

wingnutty. Ike once said - in the spirit of ecumenism - that it doesn't matter what a person believes, just so he believes in something.
Henry Luce, he of Time magazine, said that the overiding imperative of the 20th century was the "Christianization of China". Let that one sink in!
"They say they were there before we were here"... Randy Newman, "Yellow Man"

[skepticscott]

135. Jimmy Carter was and is a very religious man

But he clearly understood what a bad idea it is to infuse government with fundamentalist religion, and he never kowtowed to the likes of Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. Since 1980, though, every president, including Clinton and Obama, has kissed up to them, and the Repugs have been positively joyous in fellating religious Reich scum.

[Zhade]

184. Try millennia.

NT!

[laconicsax]

202. Now double it.

:hi:

[Deep13]

65. hallelujah

:7

[trthnd4jstc]

67. christianity is a religion of lies and fears.

[Divine Discontent]

76. Christ is the essence of promise and renewal. There is life after our short time on this planet.

[Pastiche423]

93. Got proof of that?

Din't think so.

[Zhade]

186. 2000 years and still no evidence, you think they'd stop lying to themselves.

NT!

[Divine Discontent]

218. Yes, lying, it's all lying. Your negative attack sounds more like fear.

For you could simply say, I'm not a believer, Zhade, but you choose to insult. That's not very open-minded. Just sayin'

You don't have to believe as I do, but I would never tell you you're lying to yourself.

peace to you

[Divine Discontent]

219. yes, actually I do, more than enough, personally speaking.

Each person is shown things in their life that God allows them to see if they will open their hearts up. I also believe in the sanctity of Christ's teachings as being quite blessed. I appreciate you simply just disagreeing and being mature. It's a rarity from non-believers and believers towards each other. And just because you do not believe, and I do (in a higher power that created time), it doesn't mean there should be anything but discussion. I hope someone who is a believer as I am, who you know personally, will explain their faith with you and you will hear them out. I didn't start this thread, but all threads can be positive and civil if people will allow themselves to be mature about their beliefs on whether there's an afterlife.

peace to you.

[onehandle]

269. Got proof otherwise?

I didn't think so.

I haven't witnessed it. But I cannot say for sure there isn't.

And neither can you.

[Toasterlad]

170. Saruman the Wise Was Far Closer to Being the Essence of Promise and Renewal than Jesus.

His story and history were pretty constant, whereas Jesus has gone through more costume changes over the last 2000 years than a Cher concert. He didn't START OUT super-powered, you know.

[RandomKoolzip]

173. Bullshit. Life's short, there's nothing after this, so do as much good as you can while alive.

[Zhade]

185. Christ is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

(With apologies to the late great atheist Douglas Adams for paraphrasing.)

[Patchuli]

210. Thank you for that!

I hate these Christian-bashing threads that those who choose to believe other things or not anything at all like to run with. They consistently refuse to accept the fact that there is are liberal left Christians who do not follow the likes of Robertson and Dobson. Proof of His Word is everywhere but for those who refuse to see.

That said, some folks here practice what they complain of; namely, intolerance.

[onehandle]

268. Intolerance Underground. nt

[liberation]

272. The funny thing about your posts...

Why is it OK for religious people to "hate" those who disagree with them, and on top of that us atheist are the "intolerant" ones?

Do you realize that your post was nothing more but an exercise in projection?

[Patchuli]

273. I hate no one

and I am tired of the bashing of those of faith. I don't bash atheists for not believing. You should learn the difference between the religious 'right' and liberal Christians.

[TechBear_Seattle]

68. Link to report

http://www.americanreligionsurvey-aris.org/

[bananas]

91. "Only 1.6 percent of Americans call themselves atheist or agnostic."

<snip>

Other key findings:

• Baptists, who constitute the largest non-Catholic Christian tradition, have increased their numbers by two million since 2001, but continue to decline as a proportion of the population.

• Mormons have increased in numbers enough to hold their own proportionally, at 1.4 percent of the population.

• The Muslim proportion of the population continues to grow, from .3 percent in 1990 to .5 percent in 2001 to .6 percent in 2008.

• The number of adherents of Eastern Religions, which more than doubled in the 1990s, has declined slightly, from just over two million to just under. Asian Americans are substantially more likely to indicate no religious identity than other racial or ethnic groups.

• Those who identify religiously as Jews continue to decline numerically, from 3.1 million in 1990 to 2.8 million in 2001 to 2.7 million in 2008--1.2 percent of the population. Defined to include those who identify as Jews by ethnicity alone, the American Jewish population has remained stable over the past two decades.

• Only1.6 percent of Americans call themselves atheist or agnostic. But based on stated beliefs, 12 percent are atheist (no God) or agnostic (unsure), while 12 percent more are deistic (believe in a higher power but not a personal God). The number of outright atheists has nearly doubled since 2001, from 900 thousand to 1.6 million. Twenty-seven percent of Americans do not expect a religious funeral at their death.

• Adherents of New Religious movements, inc luding Wiccans and self-described pagans, have grown faster this decade than in the 1990s.

<snip>

Are these results very different from other recent surveys?
There was a Pew poll last year, and another organization I don't remember.

[GreenTea]

70. Rent Bill Mahr's very funny & insightful new DVD documentary, 'Religulous' - You won't

feel quite the same about the ridiculous, money making & controlling organized religion, guaranteed!

"War is a racket" and so is RELIGION!!

[byeya]

89. Lenny Bruce's bit,"Religions, inc" was pretty accurate too{end}

[uberllama42]

72. Good. nt

[bdamomma]

73. Amen

Ha!

[jmowreader]

74. It's only an 11-percent drop in twenty years. Not time to celebrate yet.

This is less than half a percent per year.

I attribute this more to people who were Christians for the good things about the faith--charity, love and fellowship--being driven away from it by people who use Christianity as a weapon.

Fundamentalist Christianity is nothing more nor less than a political movement DISGUISED as faith. These are the ones who want abortion banned. Who want homosexuals banned and/or killed. Who forced Shrub to leave the pig farm in the middle of a vacation to rush back to Washington to sign a law interfering in the Terri Schiavo fiasco. Who want public education ended. I could go on, but anyone with more than 500 posts on DU knows what fundamentalism is all about. These people aren't leaving Christianity (or, as someone put it once, Fristianity); with the moderate Christians leaving, they are in fact getting stronger.

I see lots of celebration in this thread. It's entirely wrongheaded and premature to do so; the 75 percent who still claim Christianity as their creed are even more of a threat than the 86 percent once were, since there's less dilution.

[PensiveGadfly]

83. I agree . . . furthermore . . .

I once saw a study of religious belief in a communist block country (I think it was East Germany) before and after the breakup of the soviet union. Those who claimed to have no religion made up a very small percentage before the breakup, but the percentage climbed rapidly soon after. Certainly, many people were too frightened to admit to religious belief systems while they were under a communist regime, but the fact that religious belief continued "under the radar" for so long and in such large numbers suggested to me that religious belief is endemic in the human species.

Please, feel free to tell me I'm wrong and point me to something to back up what you say.

[Zhade]

187. Hey, it's a war of attrition. I'll take every new "convert" to reason we can get!

NT!

[getthefacts]

77. I don't really care if we are

a Christian, Muslim, Jewish nation. But I'm not going to blame religion for the world's problems. They won't disappear if religion disappears. I believe most religious institutions have positive goals and aspirations. Like bad government leaders, we have some wacko religious leaders out there. Like bad government policy, we have terrible religious policy out there. I am a practicing Catholic, but I don't think my church is anywhere near perfect. I studied my history and I read the papers. I'm Catholic, however, because, over the years, I have met wonderful people in the many parishes I have been to, most of whom aspire good unto others. I don't particularly love the current Pope or agree with some of the Catholic dogma. I was a proud supporter of Obama, even though some of my peers though I was a loon for supporting a candidate that was pro-choice. I stick to my beliefs and some of my belief includes the community that comprises the Catholic Church. I was called by a priest a selective Catholic for not agreeing with some of the Churches instances, but I believe I'm no less Catholic If I disagree with my church than I'm American if I disagree with my government.
If people however choose not have any religion, fine with me too. I think people should always have the choice. In my world, religion and my faith works for me. It doesn't have to be the same for anybody else. Preaching hate over religion however doesn't sound like a constructive alternative either.

[Zhade]

188. Yeah, but people like you are good despite religion, not because of it.

NT!

[Divine Discontent]

81. front page story for this one study showing an 11% drop in religious affilation? anything to rush

to attack people of faith. Some of the people on this board just take any chance they can get to attack Christians (specifically) - you certainly wouldn't expect that from a progressive site of open-minded people who respect others differences without belittling their beliefs.

This is a small portion of DUers, as the small amount of recs point out, I know, but they still take every chance they get to say Christianity (primarily) is a 'fairy tale', 'lie', and attack people who believe in Christ. I have yet, in 5 years, mocked or personally attacked anyone for believing in only the big bang or evolution, with no belief that you cannot have something from nothing occur.

[Bill McBlueState]

121. you can't really make an analogy between the big bang and Christianity

One has evidence to support it; the other doesn't.

[Silent3]

162. "no belief that you cannot have something from nothing occur"

There are only three possible ways to resolve the "why is there something rather than nothing" question, and they are the same whether you're a theist or an atheist.

1) There is no beginning -- something has existed forever.
2) As a special boundary condition, perhaps a one-time event, something can arise from nothing.
3) The human mind simply can't, at least not yet, wrap itself around this problem, and probably can't even ask this question correctly, never mind coming up with or understanding the answer.

Theists merely insert an extra, non-necessary entity into this dilemma. Rather than supposing that the material universe might have existed forever without beginning, or spontaneously arisen from nothing, or deciding that the question of origin may be beyond their reach, they create a God which can exist forever, or a God which can spontaneously appear, or a God to be the subject of an imponderable question.

[Zhade]

189. WAHHHH I'M BEIN' PERSECUTED!

:rofl:

What a fucking crock. What you believe in IS a myth -- pointing that out isn't "hate".

Get off the cross, your nonexistent zombie savior needs the wood.

[PassingFair]

253. Non Believers make up the vast majority of posters here.

Post a poll in ANY forum and tremble in awe
at the results.

There is a difference between those
who seek "knowledge" and those who
seek "salvation".

[get the red out]

84. Problem

It appears as if it is the nice Christians that are fewer, while the nasty, facist Christians are 1/3 of the population.

I find that very troubling. Those people will do ANYTHING to get their way. The Evangelicals are the Taliban.

[DFW]

85. No we're not. It's just that people are less intimidated about saying so

I don't know anyone who has given up on religion. I do know people who are
now less fearful about admitting they aren't interested in having any. It
used to be that it was bad for job interviews, or, in some parts of the country,
even difficult to meet new people or partners if you admitted you weren't
religious. That stigma is now waning, and many more people than before who are
not religious have no inhibition about saying so up front and out loud.

I don't see people abandoning their faith if they have one. I do perceive people
less likely to lie about having one when they don't.

[RiverStone]

88. Imagine no religion....

Said John Lennon. :think:

One day, humans will evolve beyond the need for it.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

90. I don't think this country is becoming "less" Christian. I think this is merely a rejection

of the KIND of Christianity that has been fed to Americans for the last 30 years. You know, the one that touts prosperity as something ordained by God. I hope they mean that it is a rejection of the form of Christianity that focuses on damnation and the demonization of people who are different from the majority. I sincerely hope that this is a rejection of the Christianity that is void of compassion for the sick, downtrodden and poor. This is hopefully--and finally--a rejection of the kind of Christianity that subjugates women and minorities and treats these groups as "other than" human. I hope that it will eventually be a Christianity that is rejected on the basis of all forms of bigotry and a rejection of hyper-nationalism and the xenophobia the often results from that. I hope that the new Christianity will reject senseless and unnecessary war and the taking of innocent human lives.

[redqueen]

92. No, religion is dying, everywhere.

And it's about fucking time, too.

[Evoman]

107. Aren't you religious?

[redqueen]

117. God, no...

;)

I like 'spirituality'... but that is a nebulous concept and best suited for theoretical discussions.

Religion, IMO, is the perversion of anything spiritual. It can't possibly be good, unless it's viewed as a philosophical / theoretical concept. Attempting to claim it has any bearing on reality is just asking for trouble. Again, IMO.

[Pacifist Patriot]

137. Perhaps not so much dying as evolving.

I consider myself more religious today as a non-theist than I was twenty years ago as a Christian.

[wickerwoman]

113. And I think a lot of these people were always atheists or agnostics

and feel more comfortable admitting it now.

I remember in high school if someone asked what religion I was, I would pussy-foot around and say "I don't really know" whereas now I would just come out and say "I'm an atheist".

Church attendance (outside of mega-churches) has been going down for a long time. I went to Catholic mass with my grandmother half a dozen times and it was never more than half full and I *never* saw anyone under 50.

A lot of people hold on to a religious affiliation just because they don't want to say they're atheists (or don't really want to think about the problem) but they don't practice. And I think these statistics indicate more of the non-practicing people no longer feeling like they have to pretend rather than real inroads being made into the core believers.

[enuegii]

153. Exactly.

I've had the subject come up many times over the years, and being stubborn, I've consistently stuck to my atheistic guns and answered truthfully when asked.
Today, I tend to hear responses like "Oh, really?" or something equally non-committal, whereas in the past (20-30 years ago) I would more likely be subjected to self-righteous screams of outrage and howls of being "offended" in some way for responding politely to their question.

[Zhade]

190. I know I am!

NT!

[Delphinus]

95. Thank god and goddess!

Let those who have no religious identity, but may want one, find out about Unitarian Universalism.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

236. Yes it's a good place for some people.

I was raised Presbyterian.

I went through a lot of different churches. I got baptised with the full dunk. I prayed my butt off and read my bible and went to church. I had to leave it and stop being a Christian because I was so depressed and suicidal from the fact that my life was still horrible, and the preachers delighted in telling us how sinful and bad we were, and that nothing we did would make any difference, because "our righteousness is as filthy rags"!!!! That made me want to crawl into a hole and die after every sermon. Not life affirming at all.

Boy that's really positive! Talk about nihilism!!! :sarcasm:

The only place I feel comfortable with is the Unitarian church. Lots of atheists and agnostics there who like the social interaction and feeling of community. You don't have to subscribe to a creed.

I refuse to go to a church where I have to state a creed. That's because I am not gonna lie.

I worship the Giver of Life, the Coffeepot, like lots of good UUs. :D

www.uua.org

[CreekDog]

100. Studies should show that Christians are becoming less Christian too

...or so it seems to me. :eyes:

[MurrayDelph]

103. Now, I've been saying for years

that I keep seeing less Christianity in a lot of folks who call themselves
Christian.

[crimsonblue]

106. how can 3/4 of Americans be Christians and 1/5 have no religious identity?

Unless we live in the Yogi Berra world of pseudo-statistics, the numbers simply do not match.

[PensiveGadfly]

110. Odd statistics

The statistic does look odd, but technically it could be correct. You'd have 15/20ths saying that they were Christian and 4/20ths saying they had no affiliation, leaving 1/20th for all other non-Christian religions.

[D23MIURG23]

133. 1/5 < 1/4, so 1/5 + 3/4 < 4/4.

You can make a statement about portions of a whole without accounting for all of it.

I can tell you that 60% of the people in my lab are atheist and 20% is a Christian and not be doing "pseudo-statistics". I could tell you about the Jew, but I don't have to in order to make a true statement.

[onehandle]

140. Uh... 3/4 = 75%. 1/5 = 20%. That's 95%.

You can assume the the other 5% are other religions.

I don't see the problem.

[Towlie]

112. I believe in the Great Creator, ALOT! If you use that name in your post, it means you believe too.

The name ALOT is pronounced "AL-lit" with the emphasis on the first syllable. It appears that there are a lot of people here who are fellow believers in The Great ALOT.

[anonymous171]

114. Probably a good thing. Less crazy assholes with no knowlegde of theology.

[D23MIURG23]

120. Hurray!! Praise Bob! n/t

[Donkeykick]

124. I don't think that believers...

are responsible for lowering the membership in our churches of Christianity; I think most of the blame can be attributed to the way the Church leadership has gone astray by being more condemnable instead of forgiving. Just look at the nine year old girl that was raped in Brazil by her stepfather--the church is excommunicating the mother, and the doctors that were involved with saving her life with an abortion.

LINK


A good majority of these church leaders would do better to read the scriptures more with their hearts rather to rely on unquestioned dogma.

[Bill McBlueState]

204. I'm not sure that the actions of the Roman Catholic leadership

are convincing mainline American Protestants to stop going to church. Half of American Protestants don't consider Catholics to be real Christians, anyway, if I wager a guess.

[DireStrike]

125. The non-religious are the largest minority in America

16%, according to Bill Maher in Religulous.

So why is our country run by people who hate or pity us, and who want church and state to come together?

[onehandle]

142. Actually, Hispanics are.

In less than 30 years, it will be Caucasians.

Maher goes weird with facts to make points.

[bananas]

157. No, women are.

[DireStrike]

168. Eep, that was obvious.

Good point. Sorry I missed it.

[onehandle]

201. See post #200. nt

[bananas]

216. See post #215

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=199351&mesg_id=199578

[onehandle]

200. No, there are more women than men. nt

[bananas]

215. A sociological minority is not necessarily a numerical minority

"A sociological minority is not necessarily a numerical minority — it may include any group that is subnormal with respect to a dominant group in terms of social status, education, employment, wealth and political power."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_group

"Not limited to mathematical minority: example women, Blacks in South Africa, Blacks in Mississippi and South Carolina in the 1920's"
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/minor01.htm

[onehandle]

221. This part of the thread was about numbers. You took it elsewhere.

Again.

[DireStrike]

169. Possibly, but not by much.

U.S. Hispanic Population Surpasses 45 Million
Now 15 Percent of Total

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/population/011910.html

Non-religious is 16 percent, according to Maher. I guess it's possible that the hispanic population has increased by 1% or more in a year, though that seems really fast to me.

[fascisthunter]

126. uh-oh... America may not be as Christian some hope

what shall they dooooo?????????

[Dinger]

128. As A Christian,

I am sad to see that, sort of. I also believe (strongly) in free choice. If that's accurate, then that's the way it goes. In other words, to each his/her own.

[muriel_volestrangler]

130. The change in non-religious, and catch-all 'Christian', was almost entirely between 1990 and 2001

From the report:

In broad terms, ARIS 2008 found a consolidation and strengthening of shifts signaled in the 2001 survey. The percentage of Americans claiming no religion, which jumped from 8.2 in 1990 to 14.2 in 2001, has now increased to 15 percent. Given the estimated growth of the American adult population since the last census from 207 million to 228 million, that reflects an additional 4.7 million "Nones." Northern New England has now taken over from the Pacific Northwest as the least religious section of the country, with Vermont, at 34 percent "Nones," leading all other states by a full 9 points.


"Many people thought our 2001 finding was an anomaly," Keysar said. We now know it wasn't. The 'Nones' are the only group to have grown in every state of the Union."


The percentage of Christians in America, which declined in the 1990s from 86.2 percent to 76.7 percent, has now edged down to 76 percent. Ninety percent of the decline comes from the non-Catholic segment of the Christian population, largely from the mainline denominations, including Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians/Anglicans, and the United Church of Christ. These groups, whose proportion of the American population shrank from 18.7 percent in 1990 to 17.2 percent in 2001, all experienced sharp numerical declines this decade and now constitute just 12.9 percent.


Most of the growth in the Christian population occurred among those who would identify only as "Christian," "Evangelical/Born Again," or "non-denominational Christian." The last of these, associated with the growth of megachurches, has increased from less than 200,000 in 1990 to 2.5 million in 2001 to over 8 million today. These groups grew from 5 percent of the population in 1990 to 8.5 percent in 2001 to 11.8 percent in 2008. Significantly, 38.6 percent of mainline Protestants now also identify themselves as evangelical or born again.

http://www.americanreligionsurvey-aris.org/

And, speaking as an atheist, I find the worldview of 'mainline denominations' much easier to understand and cooperate with than 'Evangelical/Born Again' megachurch types.

[RedCloud]

132. Meanwhile studies of evolution improve us.

Rh factor from the Rhesus.
To understand us, we have to look at our cousins and sometimes our fellow mammals. Too exhausted to give you the Big Picture,

And all the while religion just LIHOPs.

[Ozymanithrax]

136. Slightly fewer Americans consider themselves Christian...

But those that remain are more zealous and conservative.

This sort of mirrors extremism in othe rcountries, at least the way I see it.

[Lost-in-FL]

138. OH NOS!! And becoming like Sweden???!!! or worse...

the Netherlands??

[Jambalaya]

141. Religilous?

Have we become religilousy?

And.is that A "bad" thing?

[Jambalaya]

143. Religis=LOUSY

EXPOSÉ: THE “CHRISTIAN” MAFIA

The term “Christian Mafia” is what several Washington politicians have termed the major conspirators and it is not intended to debase Christians or infer ...
www.insider-magazine.com/ChristianMafia.htm - 238k - Cached - Similar pages________________________________________

Check this article out and understand why MANY have long since checked out of Christianity in this country,imho.

[Dukkha]

145. maybe now they'll follow through with their threat to leave

and create their own little medieval Jesusland country elsewhere. I'll help them pack.

[Dangerously Amused]

147. I like your Christ; I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

~ Mohandas Gandhi

[Akoto]

150. While I feel no shame about my own Buddhism ...

I can certainly understand why others would choose to follow a different belief system, or none at all. Spirituality (or lack there of) is a very personal thing and everyone has a right to find their own path. I do not judge, nor would it be my place to do so.

Having said that, I'm pleased that faith in general is becoming less influential within our culture. The infusion of religion into politics has troubled me, as has its use to justify various misdeeds.

[Zhade]

191. I like you. : )

NT!

[TWiley]

151. This is great news ! People are soooo sick of the "faithful"

American Christianity has done virtually no good for this nation for a long long time. Fear and Bull Shit will only get you so far in life.

[Murb]

155. Wondering Why?

I am wondering - are there less Christians or simply less pretenders? It seems that those who are really spiritually centered have always been and will continue to be.

Murb
http://www.thehotstickers.com/laminx-tint-and-protection-c-536.html">The Hot Stickers
http://www.buypokersets.com/poker-table-tops-c-10.html">Poker Table Tops

[NeedleCast]

158. Good, Slowly but Surely we put fairy tails behind us.

[pipi_k]

159. I'm on the fence...

On one level, I think religion sucks.

On another level, I believe that people should be able to have a religion that gives them hope (or whatever it is they get from it).


But the one thing I'm never on the fence about is this:

People can have their religions, as far as I'm concerned...as long as they keep their goddamned religion out of my face, out of the faces of people who don't want anything to do with it, out of Science, and out of Politics.

As long as people aren't using their holy books (yes, I think they're fairy tales, but whatever) to justify discrimination against other people, or telling other people how they should live their lives, I'm fine with them.

[Zhade]

192. But is false hope really better?

I understand people wanting comfort, but to lie to themselves -- that seems like a case where the cure is worse than the disease.

[kestrel91316]

161. Oh, noes!!!!!! ZOMG!!1!!!11!!

What will we tell the children??????

[Zhade]

193. Without religion? The truth, and more often.

NT!

[DUlover2909]

163. They should do a study camparing faith and educational level.

What percentage of Americans have at least a bachelor's degree?

[Tansy_Gold]

165. THANK YOU, JESUS!!! THANK YOU, JESUS!!!!

.

[fedupwithbush]

167. I think we're not less religious, we're just sick about choices.

I was raised Baptist, went to Penticostal, Methodist, Christian, Catholic and Presbyterian churches when growing up. I went on my own. My mom talked about belief and a higher power but didn't attend church and never told me exactly what to believe.

I believe in a higher power. I just don't want to put a label to it. I disagree with some of all of the churches I attended.

That doesn't make me a non-believer. It just makes me a non-churchgoer.

I let my children go to any church their friends ask them to go to. I talk with them about what they think about what they heard.

My grandmother influenced my thinking a lot. She told me that anywhere you pray is a church. I believe that.

No one church or religion is right, I'm sure of that. And no one knows what happens after they die.

Most churches and religions have a lot of common denominators.

This is so complicated, I can't continue. But I will say that saying people aren't religious or don't believe in a higher power just isn't so. We just choose not to follow the crowd.

Especially when that crowd can't tell us about what happens after we die.

And I do believe that what I do here and now matters. If I influence 1 person to be a better person, I've accomplished something.

[hayu_lol]

172. As has been mentioned by several posters...

Bill Maher's RELIGULOUS is worth watching and getting a few chuckles off in the process. Sure, he made the thing his way and you may or may not agree with the way he handles religion(organized or disorganized). Still worth watching the documentary.

You might want to watch JESUS CAMP as a followup. Most enlightening to see how the fundies are training their young. Islam has Madrasses--Christianity has Jesus Camps. Scary.

[Zhade]

194. Um, *I* am telling you I DO NOT believe in a higher power and am not religious.

That's a fact. So yeah, you're wrong -- it IS so.

[Zhade]

174. Cool - especially "not losing out to other religions, but primarily to a rejection of religion".

That is a VERY good sign.

[Zhade]

182. Why was this moved?

Typical.

[BrklynLiberal]

195. Hopefully, John Lennon's dream may come true some day...

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

[CadenBlaker]

203. Former Christian checking in.

Now a proud atheist thanks to reason and right wing America.

[Divine Discontent]

217. you do accept how it would appear you really didn't believe to begin with, correct?

If you truly believed in your heart that Christ has blessed your spirit with understanding his promises are real - you would never go back to being unprotected by the sacrifice he made. That's my feeling on it, and I have often thought about the point of existence and God's purpose in my life (see my name, I've doubted before). I just firmly believe there was something before time began - that is God, and we are given freewill to do as we choose, for if we had no freewill, what would the point of existence as 'robots' be?

So do you believe in a deity or just no deity at all, and just 'big bang' theory?

Anyhow, the right wing false Christians that attack people who don't wrap themselves in the flag and go out and tell everyone they're going to hell if they don't believe exactly as they do make many people turn from believing - and those people that encourage others to not believe have to answer to God in whatever way God chooses...

I know just as many kind atheists as I do compassionate Christians (and vice-versa with mean people) - it has nothing to do with kindness, and all to do with forgiveness. That's all I'm saying. To lay blame on the right wing hypocrites seems like a strange reason to say you're no longer a believer. Just discussing what I think, based on your comment. Feel free to comment back, and take care...

[valerief]

247. Bravo. Welcome back to rationality! nt

[leapinggnome]

205. Took long enough...

no religion, know peace....

[2QT2BSTR8]

208. Happy to be an active Theist!

[NoSheep]

212. Thank God.

[Downtown Hound]

237. Amen!

This article actually makes me think there may be a God after all.

[veganlush]

214. that's good news. Now that we're walking upright...

...we can get going on the SOCIAL evolution. We evolved with large brains which allowed us to know what no other animal knows of itself, that is, the reality of our own death. It became necessary to deal with that fact so that necessity gave birth to the invention called religion. It served it purpose and went on to cause immeasurable pain and suffering, and still does. It's a hopeful sign that it's numbers are waining-if only it was happening faster...

[The Hope Mobile]

220. This is the direct result of the hypocrisy of the Bush years. nt

[barbtries]

238. hallelujah

praise reason hehe

And of all plagues with which mankind are curst,
Ecclesiastic tyranny's the worst. Daniel Defoe

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
Thomas Paine

welcome down from your church bob welch

[tavalon]

240. None too soon!

[bowens43]

241. Good!!

Religion makes people stupid and cruel.

[valerief]

246. Somehow I think the number of non-religious is way higher than that. I think it's like

when a closeted married man is asked if he's gay. Of course, he's gonna say no, and we know there are loads of closeted married men.

[cosmik debris]

249. You can't fool all of the people all of the time.

It looks to me like a lot fewer people are being fooled.

[BeyondThePale]

250. Hooray! I think we are all a little old for fairy tales as a...

basis for operating in the world!

[DirtyJersey]

255. A lot of you are missing something important

This article only hints at it, so I'd like to see a better analysis, but re-read this:

"One in three Americans consider themselves “born again” or “evangelical” Christians, while the percentage who belong to “mainline” congregations such as the Episcopal or Lutheran church has fallen."

In other words, the sane former Christians have dropped their affiliation, but the crazies are holding steady and quite possibly growing.

[Justyce]

262. DU seems to be going overboard with the anti-Christian thing lately IMO.

The things said about Christians around here wouldn't be tolerated if said about Muslims, Jews, athiests, etc. I really don't get it. Aren't we supposed to be tolerant of ALL religions & non-religion?

(This isn't in response directly to the article but just a general comment after reading some of the vicious posts above.)

[spiritual_gunfighter]

263. I respectfully disagree

I think people on DU that are of unbelief, see the fallacy in all religion not just Christianity. It is just we that are of a non believing variety are bombarded with Christianity on a daily basis, not so true with Islam or other religions.

[liberation]

265. Why do Christians feel the need to frame "disagreement" as "attack"?

If religious beliefs are so threatened by counterarguments based on logic and common sense. Let me assure you that trying to play the victim card, certainly does not add extra validity...

[onehandle]

266. DU is intolerant when it comes to certain issues.

Religion is one of them.

There is a hard core here that doesn't just want religion out of their lives, but want it crushed all together.

I'm not religious, but I don't pee in the pool of those who are average, everyday people who have faith.

I often point out how ridiculous they sound and am treated like I'm a "fundy" or something.

I don't know if there is a nickname for anti-religion fundamentalists, but DU seem to be their HQ.

[Baby Snooks]

267. Good riddance I say...

I look around at what "Christianity" has done to this country and can only say good riddance.

One of the worst examples is an African-American woman who told me she was a "Christian" and so she didn't "approve" of homosexuality.

I do hope she always remembers my telling her that I was a "Christian" as well and I believed in the Curse of Ham and so what she did and did not approve of simply didn't matter.

That one comment just finally summed up the hypocrisy of "Christians" and "Christianity" for me. And always will.

[Name removed]

278. Deleted message

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