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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 10:29 AM
Original message
"Religion of peace" wants to cane woman because she is "guilty" of drinking beer:
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. That just their culture
Edited on Tue Aug-25-09 10:32 AM by JonQ
we should respect and cherish it.

:sarcasm:
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Oh, of course! And here I was thinking they were shitheads for this decision...
Edited on Tue Aug-25-09 10:36 AM by Strong Atheist
silly me...

:eyes:



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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. Another place I don't want to move to - although each country has their right
Edited on Tue Aug-25-09 10:44 AM by stray cat
or at least we can't intervene in most cases.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Their right to what? Cane people because of religious insanity? Mutilate their genitals because of
Edited on Tue Aug-25-09 10:51 AM by Strong Atheist
religious insanity? Not educate half the population because of religious insanity? Have husbands raping wives due to religious insanity?

What "right" are you blathering about?


Edited to add: The more I hear about shariah laws, the more I conclude that they are shit...


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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
5. And we put people in prison for life, on the third strike, for shoplifting.
We have no moral superiority over them.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Well, that makes canning this woman for DRINKING BEER just fine and dandy, doesn't
Edited on Tue Aug-25-09 10:53 AM by Strong Atheist
it?

:eyes:

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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. As a woman, I'll take our culture, flawed as it is
Over one with special religious police who are assigned to torment (and sometimes murder) me for minor 'infractions' such as showing an ankle. Any day of the week.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Agreed...
:yourock:
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elshiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
36. As a woman, I fully agree.
In some Muslim countries, they cut off the toe of the woman who wears nail polish in public. That happened in Afghanistan with the Taliban.
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Creationismsucks Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. really?

That's amazing. I hadn't heard that. I keep hearing that there isn't enough room in the prisons for all but the most violent offenders. If you could link to some substantiation of your point, I'd be grateful. It's more that I'm curious, as opposed to being picayune.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Here's one link.
http://www.threestrikes.org/sfchronicle_0.html

And there are plenty more.

I'm not trying to diminish the injustice of the OPs citation - but only point out that we have a less than just system ourselves. And making it into a Muslim bash is a little too RW for my tastes.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Yeah, lets never point out ANY injustices; because, like man, we might
offend the peretrators of the injustice...


..and since our country has injustices, we can NEVER point out injustice in another place...


:eyes:
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #15
27. No, lets seek a BALLANCED understanding of injustice.
Starting with the insight that religions, just like nations, are organic…evolve, peak and decay…and you just may be a young pup looking at an old dog.

You might even pause to consider where the old dog came from…a harsh desert savage tribal region in which a female child was worth less than a camel and buried alive in the sand…transformed…in the matter of a single lifetime into a civilization that saw the worlds first inheritance rights for women. A civilization upon the shoulders of which ours stands…art, music, science even table manners.

And ‘justice’ is remaining unaware of the legacy, never investigating it, never discussing it?…just running endless narrow, shallow, one sided accounts of the injustices they now commit?

“since our country has injustices, we can NEVER point out injustice in another place”

NO!

The Atheists on this board could show the >strength< of their argument and their adherence to logic, reason, truth by digging a bit fucking deeper than this endless shallow crap.

Risk “offending the perpetrators of injustice” by having a good look at some big/ongoing injustices and our (Western) role in them. By all means take a shot at the “shitheads” swinging the cane…then take the time to have a look at the shitheads wielding the Western military and media cane.

Ask yourselves who drew up the borders of Iraq, how and why, and work out how American/Australian/British soldiers and Iraqi citizens end up paying the price for that injustice.

Find out what happened in Tehran in the nights following 9/11 and ponder the ‘justice’ of our free and open media in not reporting it.

Or dig a bit deeper and have a good look at the origins of Al Qaeda, Wahhabism, and Sayyid Qutb….and in doing so perhaps discover how the injustices perpetrated >in and by< “our country” lead directly to injustices perpetrated >on< our country.

This constant pissing on religion from the assumed heights of intellectual and moral superiority serves to blinker and blind those doing so to the origins and nature of some of the greatest injustices of our time….and worst of all >our involvement< in those injustices.




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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. "You might even pause to consider where the old dog came from; a harsh desert savage""
Edited on Wed Aug-26-09 09:42 AM by Strong Atheist
Apologize for this shit all you want; its still shit...
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Or you could demonstrate yourself incapable

of any such “pause” or “consideration”…
or even the baseline literacy to recognise that no “Apology” for “shit” was made, suggested or intended.

Strong Atheism requires strong argument drawn from depth of understanding….not shallow weak as piss evasion and wilful ignorance.


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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Relativism, blah, blah, blah, sharia shit ok because we do similar, blah
blah, blah...

Shit is shit, and this is sharia shit...

Happy to point that out, and will continue to post when such things occur, despite the apologists...:evilgrin:
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. No Apology was made?
Lets take this standard:

You might even pause to consider where the old dog came from…a harsh desert savage


for excusing insane, unjust, shitty laws and apply it in an analogous situation, shall we?

In the south, there were/are racist laws, but we should excuse them because they are an old dog who got their butts kicked in the civil war so we should feel sorry for them...


Doesn't sit so well does it? That is because it would be apologizing for evil laws.

Apologizing? Oh no, you...


:sarcasm:



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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #34
42. That’s right, no apology and no apologetics.
My invitation was that you might “seek a BALLANCED understanding of injustice” and in doing so look to the organic nature of religions/nations.

You cut, omit, ignore and I can only assume reject the notion of ‘balanced’ appraisal...one that looks at how your nation might be judged in the same manner that you judge.

Then you rush headlong to a misquote out of context and misrepresentation of what I wrote and present your misplaced assumption that I am- “excusing insane, unjust, shitty laws”.

Nope…nothing I said attempts to do so.

“In the south, there were/are racist laws, but we should excuse them because they are an old dog who got their butts kicked in the civil war so we should feel sorry for them...Doesn't sit so well does it?”

Nope…because nobody is asking you to “excuse” or “feel sorry for” >anybody<.

If the south has racist laws what we shouldn’t do is pretend this reflects upon or represents all Southerners or deem it 'Southern shit' or hold all America responsible.

Some pissant employing shitty sharia law doesn’t reflect on all Islam or call the “Religion of Peace” title into doubt/question. Nor does Southern law or torture conducted by the CIA mean that America is no longer entitled to it’s anthem- ‘land of the free home of the brave’.

“Shit is shit, and this is sharia shit...
Happy to point that out, and will continue to post when such things occur”

Yup…I have no doubt you will…and like the vast majority atheist of posters on DU R&T you will no doubt continue to sheet the shit home to all religion or all Islam-the “Religion of Peace” responsible for the shit. Because that's what it's all about, find the shitty religionist and put it up holding all religion responsible.

It's a great game...it paints a pretty prejudice picture and "sits well".


The irony is the mirror image…the Wahabist website forums on which they post every ill and injustice committed by Americans or American Foreign Policy…and for them “Shit is shit, and this is CIA shit, or Pentagon shit, or America the Great Satan shit… and they are Happy to point that out, and will continue to post when such things occur…….over and over and over again inculcating the prejudice that because of >some< or >some law or policy< all are tarred with the same brush.




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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Don't know what planet you live on. On the one I live on, every time
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-28-09 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
22. "We have no moral superiority over them."
No doubt we have some bad things to clean up here in the U.S., but that shit is pretty crazy.

The laws in many Islamic countries blow.
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
25. I’d like to thank you for your post
And apologise in advance for the venting rant that follows.

But I’m sick of it…the trawling the media for any&every act of bastardry that paints religion in a bad light…this thread being yet another prime example. The snide, shallow sarcasm and assumptions of moral superiority…the insular and festering bigotry.
As I read the thread I contemplated a one for one deal…responding every time one of these (evils of religion) threads appeared with one that exposed the abhorrent failings of the American justice system- The treatment of minorities, the mentally ill, the intellectually disabled. And, to be fair, throw in a few that highlighted my own nations (Oztralia) justice system failures…especially in relation to its indigenous population.

No point, I have already been repeatedly advised that one cannot compare/contrast a religion and a nation.

I thought about relating a recent interview with a Muslim professor returning to Pakistan (and regional Sharia law) after twelve years in Washington. He was asked about the “barbarity” of religious law under which thieves had their hands cut off. He responded with the utmost tact, explaining first the raw statistics (some 7-8 repeat offender thieves over a two year period), then outlined the overall crime statistics, went on to point out that over the same period some two thousand US citizens (in one State) were fatally shot by other citizens. He did not need to underline the barbarity. Asked about the comparative role of woman in both countries he pointed out that his wife and daughters could travel freely/safely, day or night, in this birth nation…but they would not dare venture out at night in the US.

No point, I have already been repeatedly advised that the evils of Islam are overwhelming and no consideration ought be given to their contribution to civilization.

“We have no moral superiority over them”.

That covers it eloquently and succinctly.

Your response stands as one of the few rare glimmers of balanced insight in a sea of rampant xenophobia…and I thank you for it…and apologise again for bitching on the shoulder of your post.
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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #25
54. Crime stats for Pakistan are unreliable
Your Muslim Prof is being extremely selective with his facts regarding the treatment of women in Pakistan. The police there are completely out of control and it's especially bad for women:

snip

Torture is a particularly acute problem in cases in which the suspect is thought to have committed a political crime, but it is not uncommon in serious criminal cases. General police brutality in handling all suspects is routine. Police frequently act without warrants or other proper authorization, and individuals disappear into the criminal justice process for weeks before they can be found and, through writs of habeas corpus, be brought into regular judicial channels. Rape of prisoners, both male and female, is common. Prisoners often die in detention but are reported as killed in the course of armed encounters. Police also are alleged to extort money from families of prisoners under threat of ill treatment. The performance of the police and their failure to act against political groups that run their own torture machinery are especially bad in Sindh, but there is no Pakistani who looks on an encounter with the police with equanimity.

In year 2001, police committed numerous extrajudicial killings; however, the total number of such killings has declined in recent years. In Karachi there were fewer killings between rival political factions during the year 2001; however, there was an increase in violence and killings between rival religious sects. Police abused and raped citizens. While the officers responsible for such abuses sometimes were transferred or suspended for their actions, no officer has been convicted and very few have been arrested. The Government conducted a series of trainings for police officers in provincial capitals; in these trainings, human rights abuses committed by law enforcement officials were acknowledged openly. In Karachi there were signs of progress in redressing police excesses; however, in general police continued to commit serious abuses with impunity.

The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) noted that there were 169 extrajudicial killings during the year 2001, a decrease from the 271 extrajudicial killings reported in 2000. The police and were responsible for the deaths of a number of individuals associated with political or terrorist groups during the year 2001. The extrajudicial killing of criminal suspects, often while in police custody or in staged encounters in which police shoot and kill suspects, is common. Police officials generally insist that these deaths occur during attempts to escape or to resist arrest; family members and the press insist that many of these deaths are staged. Police personnel have been known to kill suspected criminals to prevent them from implicating police in crimes during court proceedings. After an attempt was made on then-Prime Minister Sharif's life in January 1999, as many as 40 Sunni Muslims associated with the Lashkar-i-Jhangvi, the group thought to be responsible for the attack, may have been killed in police encounters. In addition to killing suspects to prevent them from implicating the police in court, police reportedly killed suspected criminals to circumvent or overcome insufficient evidence, witness intimidation, judicial corruption, and, at times, political pressure. The judiciary, on the other hand, faults the police for presenting weak cases that do not stand up in court.

According to the Society for Human Rights and Prisoner's Aid (SHARP), a local NGO, 43 deaths due to police torture were reported during the year 2001. Amnesty International (AI) estimates that at least 100 persons die from police torture each year.

Police officers occasionally are transferred or briefly suspended for involvement in extrajudicial killings. However, court-ordered inquiries into these killings have resulted in few trials and no convictions. In general police continued to commit such killings with impunity.

Police professionalism is low. New officers only receive 6 months of training, and many hires are the result of political patronage rather than merit. Salaries and benefits are inadequate. However, in August the Government introduced a comprehensive package of police reforms. Key changes include transferring oversight of district superintendents of police (DSP) (a rank roughly equivalent to a lieutenant colonel) from federally appointed district commissioners to elected district mayors; granting DSPs permission to order the use of live fire on their own authority; and the establishment of public safety commissions at the district level. Under this system, a police officer who believes that the district mayor is abusing his authority over local law enforcement will have a place to seek redress.

There were credible reports of politically motivated disappearances.

The suspended Constitution and the Penal Code expressly forbid torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment; however, police regularly torture, beat, and otherwise abuse persons. Police routinely use force to elicit confessions; however, there were fewer reports of torture by police during the year 2001. Some human rights groups have stated that this decrease reflects the influence of army monitoring teams, who discourage the use of torture; other observers have suggested that the frequency of torture remained unchanged, but the media devoted less attention to the issue during the year 2001. Human rights observers suggest that, because of widespread torture by the police, suspects usually confess to crimes regardless of their actual culpability; the courts subsequently throw out many such confessions.

According to the Society for Human Rights and Prisoner's Aid (SHARP), a local NGO, 43 deaths due to police torture were reported during the year 2001. AI estimates that at least 100 persons die from police torture each year. According to a 1999 Human Rights Watch report, children in detention also are subjected to torture and mistreatment.

In 2001, police personnel continued to torture persons in custody throughout the country. Common torture methods include: Beating; burning with cigarettes; whipping the soles of the feet; sexual assault; prolonged isolation; electric shock; denial of food or sleep; hanging upside down; forced spreading of the legs with bar fetters; and public humiliation. Some magistrates help cover up the abuse by issuing investigation reports stating that the victims died of natural causes.

Human rights organizations and the press have criticized the provision of the Anti-Terrorist Act that allows confessions obtained in police custody to be used in "special courts," because police torture of suspects is common. Police generally did not attempt to use confessions to secure convictions under this law, and the Government agreed to amend the law after the Supreme Court in 1998 invalidated this and other sections of the Anti-Terrorist Act.

There was greater scrutiny by NGO's and the media of police behavior, including prison inspections in the Punjab and Sindh. In 2000 in Karachi the Citizens Police Liaison Committee (CPLC) brought cases against police officers who make false arrests, practice torture, or take bribes. However, a CPLC member reported that no new cases had been filed against police officers during the year 2001. CPLC officials believed that police reforms introduced during the year 2001 (including increased oversight by elected officials) were responsible for fewer abuses. During the year 2001, 1,888 Karachi police officers reportedly were punished for various offenses. Of these, 552 officers were discharged, 64 received compulsory retirement, and 83 were demoted or had their pay docked. Cooperation between the CPLC and the police human rights complaint cell resulted in the dismissal of 216 policemen and the demotion of or fines for 1,226 others between November 1998 and July 1999.

Special women's police stations have been established in response to growing numbers of complaints of custodial abuse of women, including rape. These stations are staffed by female personnel, but receive even fewer material and human resources than regular police stations. Efforts to raise funds for the stations during the year 2001 achieved minimal progress. According to the Government's Commission of Inquiry for Women, the stations do not function independently or fulfill their purpose. Despite court orders and regulations that only female officers may interrogate female suspects, women continued to be detained overnight at regular police stations and abused by male officers. Based on Lahore newspaper reports from January to May 1999, the HRCP found 11 cases of violence, rape, or torture of women in police custody. Instances of abuse of women in prisons are less frequent than in police stations. Sexual abuse of child detainees by police or guards reportedly also is a problem.

Police routinely use excessive force against demonstrators or strikers.

Police at times also beat journalists.

Police failed in some instances to protect members of religious minorities--particularly Ahmadis and Christians--from societal attacks.

Despite some cases during the year 2001 in which police officers were investigated or charged in connection with abuse of detainees, the failure of the Government to prosecute and to punish abusers effectively is the single greatest obstacle to ending or reducing police abuse. The authorities sometimes transferred, suspended, or arrested offending officers, but seldom prosecuted or punished them; investigating officers generally shield their colleagues.

Police corruption is widespread. Police and prison officials frequently use the threat of abuse to extort money from prisoners and their families. Police accept money for registering cases on false charges and torture innocent citizens. Persons pay the police to humiliate their opponents and to avenge their personal grievances. During the year 2001, the Government took some steps to reduce police corruption and transferred several senior police officers to other provinces to circumvent their local ties. The Government also deployed army officers to police stations.

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/asia_pacific/pakistan.html

Sounds like a great place to raise a family.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
10. I hear some black people raped a white woman once.
I say we judge the whole based on the actions of a few.

:crazy:
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. This sharia shit is hardly an isolated incedent...
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I think you can judge a whole legal system by what it considers
crimes and just punishments.

And if that legal system is based on a strict interpretation of a particular religion then it's not that hard to blame both.

Kind of like saying the "few times" blacks were mistreated by jim crow laws can't be used to judge the entire legal system in the south, or the culture that permitted it.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Very good analogy!
:yourock:
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Thank you
I tend to see alot of parallels between jim crow south and modern sharia adherents.

Especially in that most people either are indifferent or don't support what's being done, but allow themselves to be led around by a few radicals who managed to get in to power by intimidation. And eventually they will turn against the extreme acts done in their name and then the whole thing will collapse. Happened here in the early part of the 20th century, and hopefully will happen there soon.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Agreed with all of that. nt.
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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. It's especially interesting in Malaysia.
Malaysia is a very diverse and cosmopolitan country. It's officially Muslim, but there are very sizable Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist and Christian minorities. They all have their own temples and shrines and churches, and for the most part get along OK. In the cities, people tend to be secular and interested in business primarily (Kuala Lumpurians are a lot like New Yorkers, really).

Sharia law only applies to Muslims there, and in minor matters like this, it's usually not enforced much. (Women in nightclubs with a headscarf on and a martini in hand? Perfectly normal.) But any time you have a set of laws that only apples to some people and not others, it's creepy to us. Particularly when they are selectively enforced. Somebody must have wanted to 'make an example' of this woman, for some reason. Which kind of is like jim crow, in reality. Some people got away with bending the rules - others paid a horrible, horrible price, and that is random and unpredictable, which is in itself a form of terrorism.

I'm no expert on Malaysia, but I've visited the country and spoken with many of the people, and it is only a very radical minority who would support this.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
51. NEVER THINK ..Sharia law, is minor under ANY circumstances...!!
Edited on Wed Sep-02-09 08:55 PM by sam sarrha
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
50. absolutely...!! YES
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
18. My dear Strong Atheist...
Women's rights have a long way to go everywhere...

Education is key.

I'm not letting us off the hook, either...

Marginalizing women everywhere is not allowing them to contribute fully to society.

The Chinese have a saying: "Women hold up half the sky."

It's true...

Let us do our share!

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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Agreed!
:hug:
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ffellini7080 Donating Member (50 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
21. Blah blah blah
More simplification of religions. Yawn.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Actually the OP is about canning a woman for drinking a beer.
If you were really bored by the OP, you would not have posted.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Welcome to DU!



:toast:
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #28
41. That's a troll
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #41
46. Thanks. See my sig. nt.
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 05:07 AM
Response to Original message
24. A ‘Nation of Peace’ wants to make alcohol a ‘God’

Tens of thousands maimed, killed or brain damaged in alcohol related accidents.

Tens of thousands of wives and children abused and families destroyed in alcohol driven domestic violence.

Tens of millions spent on alcohol related medical conditions and rehabilitation.

A vacuous culture in which getting pissed and throwing up is a regularly repeated Right of Passage into adulthood- binge drinking, crime and violence.

But Oh my god…the freaking Muslims have busted a woman with beer and want to cane her for it.

What a bunch of hypocritical barbarians.

“….in both intoxicants and gambling, there is great fault and also
some advantage for mankind, but the fault is much greater than the
advantage” (Quran 2:219)



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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #24
38. Uh, yeah it is barbaric
One can drink alcohol without engaging in the destruction. It's a personal rights issue. These Muslims engaging in this are disgusting barbarians. I'm going to have a couple shots to protest them right now in fact.
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Ah huh
And the only way you and the OP can maintain your argument and moral outrage is by cutting and ignoring the counter point- That America/The West is just as barbaric and hypocritical and that slagging all Islam for Sharia caning is no different than slagging all America for CIA waterboarding.

The OP seeks to tar with the broadest brush, Islam cannot be a ‘Religion of Peace’ because a woman will be caned under Sharia law. This slagging all religion or all members of a particular religion is the constant Atheist sport on this board. Each time a child molesting priest is exposed Christianity is proven evil, a Sharia caning proves Islam is not a religion of peace. By these standards of profound prejudice ‘America the beautiful, home of the brave, land of the free’ gets thrown entirety into the shit bucket because of State sponsored torture and rendition and Americans en mass become barbarians and hypocrites just like the Muslims.

You cannot logically/ethically apply one broad brush standard to Islam and not apply the same to America.(But you can cut and ignore the point/arguement and pretend it hasn't been made)

“It's a personal rights issue”

Yea? TELL IT TO THOSE WHO LIVED THROUGH PROHIBITION IN THE US!

It was a health and public policy issue and there was a significant amount of rough justice inforcing that law.

Did they lower the flag because all America had become a land of barbarians and hypocrites?
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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. Prohibition ended 76 years ago
Not remotely relevant in any way today.
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-28-09 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. Oh…..*Ancient* history.

“Not remotely relevant in any way today”.

Sure…no one alive today was alive 76 years ago, the public health issue has evaporated and the culture of America has been transformed beyond recognition.

I think what I like most about your post is that even when I predict you will cut and run from the core point/issue….you cut and run from the core point/issue ;-)

“You cannot logically/ethically apply one broad brush standard to Islam and not apply the same to America.(But you can cut and ignore the point/argument and pretend it hasn't been made)”

Nice ‘pretending’ ;-)


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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. Ermmm... yeah prohibition really improved the violence and mayhem eh? NT
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
52. in Islam there is the world of peace and the world of war, the world of peace is a country dominated
by Islam, the world of war is the Jihad on all other nations not dominated yet by Islam. in order to understand this you have to know there are 3 Holy Books in Islam, Koran, Hiddah, and the Sunnah, the Sunnah trumps anything Allah taught in the Koran. so understand the Sunnah first.

this is a really really good must read book, the best $12 ever spent on knowledge in todays world. where did all the information you have on islam come from. the subject is Censored, you have to repeat what you've been told. and be careful about what you sat cause you could end up in real trouble... that MUST CHANGE
http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Muhammad-Ali-Sina/dp/0980994802



http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=muslim+apostates&search_type=&aq=0&oq=muslim+apostate

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=muslim+womens+rights&search_type=&aq=f
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Christa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
26. The caning is postponed because of Ramadan
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia – The first woman in Muslim-majority Malaysia to face caning for drinking beer was reprieved Monday because of the holy month of Ramadan. Her family said she would rather get the thrashing with a rattan cane now and put the ordeal behind her.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090824/ap_on_re_as/as_malaysia_caning_for_beer


:eyes:
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Yeah; I know. Makes the whole thing dandy, doesn't it?
Agreed on the eyeroll...
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
33. Interesting how yet another thread about women's rights
Edited on Wed Aug-26-09 12:13 PM by lukasahero
gets sidetracked. Posters seem to be more interested in blaming/defending religion than the women who are being caned, stoned, beaten, raped, etc.

The one who said we have no moral 'superiority' is right but for the wrong reasons. We have no moral 'superiority' because we don't fucking care enough about these women to stand up to the thugs who treat them like property.

Thanks, SA for posting the link.

Edited because I didn't realize this was in the R&T forum. Still, you'd think those interested in religion and theology might actually be interested in human rights too. Guess not.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. You are welcome for the link. The apologists are simply mind-blowing, in a
saddening way, aren't they?

:hug:


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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. It's not a women's rights issue though
The law here applies to both genders. She'd be caned if she was a male too.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. I have a
Edited on Thu Aug-27-09 12:49 AM by Strong Atheist
bridge to sell you...


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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. The law prohibits "Muslims" from drinking alcohol
And defines Muslim as anyone raised that way, you can't renounce it (That itself a disgusting and barbaric law, if the government is going to recognize religion at all)

So it could apply to both genders.

It's not a womens' rights issue, just a general freedom one.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. ...I saw what was said, but if you believe that most of these patriarchal
religions don't selectively treat women/other minorities worse than the men who run them, I have oceanfront property in Arizona, cheap!

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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
53. link>> womens rights
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