Can We Talk About Religion, Please?

[SecularMotion]

The Issue

Last week the Vatican invited Anglicans who are, as The New York Times put it, “uncomfortable with female priests and openly gay bishops” to reunite with the Roman Catholic Church. If a secular institution, Wal-Mart or Microsoft, for example, made a similar offer — Tired of leadership positions being open to women and gay employees? Join us! — it would be slammed for appealing to bigotry. Some criticism was directed at the church, but it was faint. Are we right to speak softly when discussing a subject as sensitive as religion?

The Argument

Etiquette holds that religion, especially another person’s religion, should be treated with deference or, better still, silence by nonbelievers. Hence the familiar dinner-party injunction: don’t discuss religion or politics. Even at a table full of co-religionists, feelings can run high, and there is a reluctance to combine digestion with discord (particularly where knives are nearby). To the observant, a nonbeliever’s comments on church doctrine can feel less like a discussion of theology than a personal attack.

http://ethicist.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/can-we-talk-about-religion-please/

[opihimoimoi]

1. From the Nits to the Pits....dinner/ discussion/ discord...how to look at it..

discuss ways to resolve on higher level perspective

thats only an op

[stopbush]

2. Fuck etiquette. Reality says that all religion is make believe, just like the Tooth Fairy.

Religion is no more deserving of a bow from etiquette than is a fervent belief in Santa Claus.

The column linked at the NYT is worth a read.

[MineralMan]

4. Yes, but, in the same way we don't tell small children that

Santa Claus doesn't exist, we can easily allow naive religionists the same leeway. We needn't teach atheism. People come to it on their own if they think long enough. There's no need to proselytize.

Rather, we should teach people to behave well, since it is behavior that makes the person, not belief.

[TexasProgresive]

5. Regardless of your opinion of religion-

I hope to never have to eat with you.

[damntexdem]

6. And here's the real problem: it's not just the uber-orthodox believers who bedevil us:

it's also the fundie atheists, who are every bit as bad as fundie Xians -- but with the added benefit that they hate being called fundie.

[BurtWorm]

7. But because atheists tend to be interested in science, they tend to frame their discussions

in terms we all have access to, unlike the other-wordly stuff religionists often like to talk about when they talk about religion. I mean an atheist will talk to you as though you're a grown up with an ability to follow a logical argument based on knowledge everyone is able to verify for themselves through their senses or reason. Religionists are fond of talking about things you either believe in or don't--and if you don't, you're out of luck unless the religionist can convince you to have a conversion experience mid-conversation (and either way, you're going to be bored for most of the conversation unless you're permitted or take permission for yourself to express your true opinion of what you're being asked to believe).

[JerseygirlCT]

11. Actually

I'd have to disagree with this, in part.

At least here, some atheists doing anything but treating believers as adults is part of the problem. Condescension, snark, sneering... none of those are really adult or respectful behavior. It would be easy to get the idea that too many of the atheists here are incapable of entertaining the idea that intelligent, adult, thoughtful people may have simply come to a differing conclusion on the topic than they have.

[Warpy]

9. There is no such thing as a fundie atheist

but there are atheists who are sick and tired of being bullied by religious people.

[damntexdem]

3. Can we not and say we did?

Oh, OK. Look at it this way: the RC Church inviting in uber-orthodox Anglicans will likely increase the liberalism of both churches. ;-)

[struggle4progress]

12. Your conclusion may be accurate: the Catholic Church hierarchy may be trying

to strengthen Catholic numbers and opposition to ordination of women, but one obvious result may be weakened support for clerical celibacy -- and marriede priests with wives and daughters could force the Church to revisit its attitudes towards women

[chaplainM]

8. Bart Simpson said it best

"It’s all Christianity, people! The little stupid differences mean nothing compared to the big stupid similarities!"

[JerseygirlCT]

10. I haven't seen much lack of discussion on this topic

in Episcopal circles.

I thought it was pretty obvious that it was a bid for control of the most conservative Episcopal clerics, and that even many among that group rejected the idea that they ought to bow the knee to Rome.

Now, on the larger question, I think discussion of religion and religious questions is one thing (and a good one). And nowhere and in no company does discussion have to equal discord. Disagreement can be handled with politeness and respect.