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Anthropologist Lionel Tiger on how churches act as ‘serotonin factories’

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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 09:57 AM
Original message
Anthropologist Lionel Tiger on how churches act as ‘serotonin factories’
Anthropologist Lionel Tiger on faith and sexual behaviour, why religion comforts us, and how churches act as ‘serotonin factories’

Montreal-born anthropologist Lionel Tiger, 72, best known for coining the phrase “male bonding,” has long been interested in bridging the gap between the natural and social sciences. In his latest work, co-authored with psychiatrist Michael McGuire, Tiger enters into the new field known as the cognitive science of religion. In God’s Brain, Tiger and McGuire argue that religious practice “brainsoothes”—alleviates the sharp edges of the human experience—far more than any other human activity.

Q: The ubiquity of belief in all human societies, you argue, means religion is rooted in our brains. You see it originating about 150,000 years ago when we were coming out of Africa, and were smart enough to contemplate death?
A: Yes, we had developed enough cortical tissue to anticipate a whole series of things about the future. The utterly astonishing one, the defining feature of religions, is the notion of an afterlife. It’s really hard to deny that this is an act of marketing genius, if you were to look at this in a cynical sense. Nobody likes to die. The idea of an afterlife, for you and for loved ones, is very attractive. It seems to me wholly improbable—what’s the evidence?—and yet it works, it just works. If you’ve got a very bad idea in your head—death—which is causing stress, and you can put another idea which is a very good one in its place, then the level of serotonin—which fights depression and anxiety and makes people feel good about themselves and others—begins to build. And you begin an organization to sustain that. Since five billion humans seem to accept that there is a heaven or reincarnation or something after death, then I have to say this is something that comforts the species.

Q: The three ways you argue that religion soothes people—socialization, ritual and belief—how do they interact with each other?
A: You can’t have belief without some sort of ritual providing regularity and reinforcement. And if you think about rituals, again they’re utterly remarkable. People gather on a Sunday and they’re told that they’re really awful, they are virtually doomed to hell, they’re sinners. However, if they perform this ritual again next week and if they accept its importance in their lives they will be saved, as it were, until next week. The Catholics have done it in a brilliant manner with the confessional, and it’s dazzling how that works. But the point is that it’s a place to go for the individual and for the group, and it unites the individual to the group in an agreeable, warm-hearted way, unlike, say, paying taxes.

Q: From the outside, then, it’s not religion’s strangeness you see, but its naturalness?
A: I’ve been on panels a couple of times with Richard Dawkins and invariably we come to the point where Richard will go on about how terrible religion is, and I’ll say, “Richard, are you a naturalist?” And he says, “Well, of course I am.” And then I say, “Would you agree, as you’ve in fact argued in your books, that over 90 per cent of people have some religion?” and he finally says, “Yes.” “How can you be a naturalist and assume that the great majority of the species is not natural? That doesn’t make any sense.” As a social scientist I wanted a deeper explanation for this otherwise remarkable activity. When you think of the cost of religion—the buildings, the tax exemptions, the weekly offering—it’s not trivial, it’s simply not trivial. If only out of respect, one has to pay attention to this.

The whole interview is interesting, whether one is pro, anti or neutral about religion.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. For some of us truth is more important than comfort...
...and I don't see Tiger arguing that religion has any deeper truth to it, just that it is comforting for a species able to contemplate its own death.

If there's an argument between Tiger and Dawkins, it isn't about the validity of religion as a way of knowing the world, it's merely about whether the net benefits of religion are positive or negative. If you value truth for the sake of truth, if you put understanding reality as it is over emotional comfort, if you put saying "we don't know" when we've reached our limits of understanding over filling in the gaps in our knowledge with pleasant delusions, that's going to factor into how you assess the balance of the effects of religion.

From the standpoint of a naturalist, the important question is whether religion benefits the species. The answer to that question isn't necessarily always the same at all times. That we survive as a species today, after a majority of humans have engaged in religious activity for many thousands of years, indicates that religion is likely to have been beneficial, no worse than neutral, or perhaps a side effect of some other associated trait that is beneficial.

Whether what has possibly helped our species survive in the past is also beneficial going forward is another matter. My objections to religion are largely philosophical -- I think it's nonsense, and I have a hard time swallowing nonsense myself, or recommending it for other people, regardless of any possible side-effect benefits. That said, I think there are good reasons to believe that religion has outlived its usefulness, if it ever had any, in promoting the survival of our species and may well be, at this point in time, a dangerous threat.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Perhaps you get that same biochemical comfort from the truth...
Seeking out and finding there is no God that rewards you for no good reason and punishes you in the same way does provide that endrophin rush. Doens't mean it isn't there, only that the source of comfort is different.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. If so, so what?
Some people might get biochemical comfort from beating kittens with shovels. What's your point?
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. My point is that, religion has a real purpose in the human expeirence and evolution. n/t
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. It's not "religion" per se that has the purpose. It's explanatory belief in general.
I'd bet that some people get exactly the same calming serotonin effect from economic beliefs as others get from religion. Both belief systems are equally "unprovable" of course - the effect doesn't rely on the truth of the belief, but rather on its truthiness.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. *Has had* a function...
...or maybe is merely a side effect of something else that's functional. Whatever value religion has had, it doesn't necessarily have that value now or going forward.

If you're a mammoth during an ice age, a heavy coat of fur is an asset. When the climate warms up, it's a threat to survival, both making it difficult to shed excess heat and carrying the risk of harboring parasites with no positive gain.

At this point in human evolution, when we have brains to reason with, I'd rather reason my way through problems, seeking workable and meaningful solutions to challenges humans face, rather than simply accepting any old adaptation that's clearly a mixed bag, not all positive.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Do you reason your way to sex?
It seems to me that without some sort of emotional predictability we probably wouldn't survive as a species.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Does religion provide emotional predictablity?
Edited on Wed Jun-16-10 03:47 PM by BrklynLiberal
In what way?
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. It seems to me that
the practice of religion basically makes everybody feel the same way about something. It doesn't matter what. The rituals involved create tribal solidarity and identification among its members. This relationship fosters reciprocity.

Feeling more or less the same way about something outside the tribe gives people common emotional ground. In too small a nutshell, "We danced around a fire last night and it felt good. And we're all afraid of that volcano."

It seems to me that the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind is that you can't have a religion without a deity. We get the same thing from doing the wave at a baseball game that we get from religion. And everybody gets to wear a special hat.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Religion is good at telling people reasons not to have sex.
What that has to do with anything in this thread, I haven't a clue. I'm not really buying your religion = emotional predictability argument. If you're trying to play up a conflict between reasoning and emotion, I don't buy that either.

You'll have to make whatever point you're trying to make more clearly.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. There is no conflict
between reason and emotion. Any perceived conflict is largely created by religions trying to gin up some bullshit evidence so they can tell people how they feel.

Adjust your attitude and we can discuss it further if you like.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I didn't say I thought there was a conflict.
It's because you aren't being clear about whatever point it is you're trying to make that I had to run the idea of the flagpole that a conflict between reason and emotion is what you were trying to get at. OK, so that's not it. One bad guess down.

Just tell me what your point is instead of leaving me guessing. Why ask, "Do you reason your way to sex?"? What direction was that questions supposed to lead?
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Well, I'm no Don Juan
but I can't imagine getting a girl into bed by regaling her with a description of the mechanics of procreation and assuring her that our activities will help perpetuate the species.

A successful relationship requires, among other things, emotional predictability. Two people need to feel the same way about each other and know they will feel that way for the foreseeable future. At least, say, until the kids are grown and able to make more that look like them. Some call it love.

If a group of people feel the same way about something, it doesn't matter what, that feeling helps identify them as members of the same tribe. I don't think there were many contract lawyers Paleolithic era. Of course there had to be the intellectual activities required to acomplish the mechanics of life on the planet, but people also have to, for some reason, want to cooperate. Evolution has made cooperation and sacrifice for mutual benefit a pleasnt experience. And right along with it we have developed the intellectual abiliy to evaluate that reciprocity to develop a sense of justice and everything that went along with it.

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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. This parallels to religion how?
Understanding that an emotional connection and physical attraction, as opposed to "description of the mechanics of procreation" and assurance that "activities will help perpetuate the species", works better for getting sex tells me what?

Although perhaps a bit of bullshit is sometimes involved in sex and romance, the BS isn't absolutely necessary, and even when it's there, it's often with a wink and a nod. One certainly doesn't haven't to wholeheartedly buy into strange dogmas or unproven cosmologies in order to have sex. We like sex because it's pleasurable, and the reason to want pleasure is there in us humans now regardless of the scientific reasons that such a pleasure response evolved. The fact that the evolutionary reason for sex is procreation does not make it unreasonable to have sex while using birth control.

Exactly how much of a belief system does, "You're the most beautiful woman in the world!", or, "I could never love anyone more than you!" constitute, anyway? :)

I suppose for some people religion is just play acting, not actually a belief system. They don't believe the dogma, they just go through the motions of the rituals because they're comforting, they like the sense of community they get from religion, etc. If people buy into the dogma, however, buy into the superstition and supernaturalism, we aren't just talking about a coping mechanism or a social club anymore.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Religious practice, like human paring, requires emotional attachment.
"Exactly how much of a belief system does, "You're the most beautiful woman in the world!", or, "I could never love anyone more than you!" constitute, anyway?"

It depends on how convincing you are.

"They don't believe the dogma, they just go through the motions of the rituals because they're comforting, they like the sense of community they get from religion, etc."

The comfort of belonging is why religion exists. The rituals are a shared emotional activity. It seems to me that when someone finds it necessary to attach a thing to a practice of faith, that practice goes downhill. If you posses the thing, and more importantly control access to the thing, you have power over people's emotions. Thus, religion becomes a tool for manipulation instead of method of social cohesion.

What would be described as religious practice facilitates a willingness to sacrifice for the group, just as an individual would sacrifice for his or her mate. That willingness to sacrifice helps to foster reciprocity among the members of the group. Teamwork helps us survive and thrive as a species.

Since most religions have become craven, idolotrous, dogma driven mass produced products the willingness to sacrifice goes to benefit the organization rather than the other members of the group. Most religions today are just corporations with more interesting architecture.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. I can't tell if you're disagreeing or just commenting.
I'm not particularly questioning why religion exists or why many people become religious. There are a number of possible explanations, the serotonin explanation in the OP being one of them. It makes a lot of sense, and certainly seems plausible.

I don't believe, however, that religion exists because any one particular religion, any combination of them, or all of them are factually true.

Are you encouraging me to abandon strong standards for truth in favor in favor of a loose, whatever-gets-ya-through-the-night standard for truth? Because that's the warm, fuzzy, feeling human being thing to do?

Are you saying religion, true or not, is an irreplaceable support system, an we atheists should keep quiet lest we wreck that crucial support system and bring doom upon us all?

I'm just taking stabs in the dark because I still can't figure out if you've got a clear point to make.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. I think we're probably in agreement.
"I don't believe, however, that religion exists because any one particular religion, any combination of them, or all of them are factually true."

I agree. Religion, much like masturbation, exists because it feels good. When people feel good they're more cooperative. If one person or group of people can make them feel good consistently, you got yerself a cult that may someday turn into a religion.

"Are you encouraging me to abandon strong standards for truth in favor in favor of a loose, whatever-gets-ya-through-the-night standard for truth? Because that's the warm, fuzzy, feeling human being thing to do?"

Certainly not. We can feel anyway we want, but sooner or later the rubber has to meet the road and we have to deal with life in the real world.

"Are you saying religion, true or not, is an irreplaceable support system, an we atheists should keep quiet lest we wreck that crucial support system and bring doom upon us all?"

Absolutely not. Religion is just a tool, and tools can be replaced. We are our own irreplaceable support system. That support comes, at least in part, from a theory of mind. Not only can we predict what we might think or feel in response to whatever scenario our imaginations could invent, we can do the same for others. What most people consider religion is just one way of getting everybody on the same emotional page.

The greatest hoax ever foisted on the human race claims that religion has to have a deity. I don't think so. It seems to me that a religion exists any time a group of people come together and put into physical practice an expression of their mutual feelings toward something. If that's the case, then a baseball game is a religious practice. So is a bridge club, a concert, a poetry reading, a political convention, a peace rally, a war rally, or a race riot.

How is it that we have such a hard time thinking beyond the narrow definition of religion foisted on us by a bunch of assholes in funny hats and twenty five hundred dollar suits? The sons of bitches have been selling us something we've already got. I suspect we are in agreement in our mutual dislike for those fuckers.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. I guess we are more or less agreeing...
...but "narrow definition" or not, "foisted on us by a bunch of assholes in funny hats" or not, I can't think of even a broad definition of religion that I'm fond of. Make the definition of religion so broad that it encompasses all things that people do collectively to reduce anxiety and to feel a sense of community, and the word loses too much specificity. You also run the risk of letting good ol' dogmatic and supernaturalistic religion share in the positive connotations of that too-broad definition while hiding their negative aspects behind the warm glow.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. I hear you.
But I don't know what to do about it. I think there will always be somebody out there willing, and able, to turn something into a religion.



It never ceases to amaze me how much R/T resembles the Guns Forum. It seems like it dosn't matter so much what the thing is, whether it's religion or a pistol, but what we do with it.

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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. wow...
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. What he is saying is that Religion exists because it provided a huge benefit...
to species survivial. It is not going to go away because the benefit that religion gives is part of what we are as biological creatures.

Individuals can do without religion, but it will continue because the species is wired for it.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I have to agree with that.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Although I have read the term "wired for" many books,
Edited on Wed Jun-16-10 12:08 PM by ZombieHorde
I am not sure what it means. Instinct? Predisposition? Capable of?

What did you mean when you used the term?
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. In this case, our brains are designed to reward us with comfort and a sense of well being.
when we surrender to these beliefs. That comfort doesn't just come in the door of a chruch, but in the belief set held by those that follow crop circles, UFO's, or politicians, or political systems.

Our brains are setup to provide this reward, this relief from stress. That is what I mean by wried, it is part of the natural chemisty of the brain.

It doesn't mean that some God programed the brain that way, but it has evolved as part of the human experience.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Is there sense of comfort that comes when one believes, they do not have to take responsibility,
Edited on Wed Jun-16-10 03:47 PM by BrklynLiberal
they do not have to make decisions, they do not have to make choices. All of that is done for them by the rule makers in the religions.

I think that there may be an argument to be made that those who need religion to sustain them lack a certain brain chemical that the others are able to produce without the "comfort" of external rules and threats of punishment if they do not behave. Or perhpas those that cannot be swayed by religion, are born with more of that chemical in their brains to begin with.

They may be good just because it is the right and natural thing to do..and do not necessarily need some more of a brain chemical as a reward for it, or even the promise of some sort of reward in the afterlife.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Do you think it might be more of
an addiction rather than a lack of that chemical? Cigarettes, booze, and drugs sell pretty well. Porn is big business. All of those activities involve tinkering with one's brain chemistry. What if religion just gave you a whole lot more of what you already have without requiring you to actually consider the object of your faith.

It's a lot more work to create something to believe in than to just pick something off the shelf.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Religion as addiction. I think that is brilliant.
Edited on Wed Jun-16-10 05:16 PM by BrklynLiberal
One can now see all those religious fanatics as drug users and the religious leaders as drug pushers. Get the people addicted and then manipulate them to do your bidding....Inquisition, Crusades, witch burning, wars, pillaging, anything to glorify the religion and maintain that "high".

WOW..Religion truly is the opiate of the masses...Karl Marx had it right..

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.
Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. George Bernard Shaw:
“The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.”

— George Bernard Shaw
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Good one!!!
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
33. Interesting. I would like to know all of the effects religions have on the brain. nt
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. According to Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis

A hypothesis (from Greek ὑπόθεσις; plural hypotheses) is a proposed explanation for an observable phenomenon.

It's a prediction about what we will know. The practice of science offers us intellectual predictability. We can all agree about the specific gravity of water and the atomic weight of iron or whatever. That way we can have air conditioning and ice in our scotch like civilized human beings.

Faith is a prediction about how we will feel. That's why heaven and hell are described in emotional terms. The practice of religion offers us emotional predictability. For about a million years all we had to do is dance around a fire, fuck a little, go to sleep and try it again tomorrow. If everybody feels pretty much the same way about stuff they tend to cooperate and make more people.

One half of the human experience cannot be overthrown in favor of another. Every time we try we bring disaster down on our heads. If we ignore intellectual predictability we throw virgins into volcanoes and burn witches. If we ignore emotional predictability, we turn the Gulf of Mexico into an oil slick and the city of Dresden into a giant bonfire.

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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. Thanks for posting this. It is fascinating.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
14. Another theory which makes a lot of sense
Is from Julian Jaynes, who argues that in primitive man the hemispheres of the brain were only loosely wired. This meant that our own thoughts (which we more advanced people recognize as our own thoughts) appeared to the thinkers as auditory hallucinations from outside the body. Since they couldn't identify the speaker, they posited an invisible man in the sky who was ordering them around.

So, the chief of the tribe would think "Hey, this is a good place to build a camp." What he would experience, however, was an auditory hallucination saying "Build the camp here." So, he would tell his followers "(Insert name of deity) told me to build a camp here."

A long time ago, god or the gods spoke to everyone. As the human brain developed, this happens less and less, until today, when if someone tells you that god has just spoken to them, you're ready to have them committed.

However, the leaders who gained power over people by channeling the "voices" telling people what to do, weren't and aren't ready to give up that power.

Jaynes, of course, makes a much more lengthy and persuasive argument than I could.

He also points out that some people with mental disorders, where the communication between the hemispheres of the brain are affected, still hear "voices" telling them what to do. So, where unaffected people would see someone doing something and think, "I'd like to kick his ass," we recognize that as our own thought and can process it properly. An affected person would hear it as an auditory hallucination with the "voices" telling them "Kick that guy's ass."
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Thanks. That is interesting enough to make me go look up Julian Jaynes.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind
That shit will change your life!

:headbang:
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
35. Jayne's Origin of Consciousness is a great book, but his hypothesis
that our changes, since earliest written history, are from biological evolution are likely wrong, since the required time-frame for biological evolution is too long: that hypothesis should probably be amended to appeal to cultural evolution. For example, it's probably not biological evolution, but cultural evolution, that accounts for the fact that many of us now distinguish dreams from reality, whereas in Homeric times we did not
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-16-10 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
19. All: Tiger?
Inspector Tiger: (jumping) Where? Where? What? Ah. Me Tiger. You Jane. Grrr. Beg your pardon, allow me to introduce myself I'm afraid I must ask that no one leave the room.

Lady Velloper: Why not?

Inspector Tiger: Elementary. Since the body was found in this room, and no one has left it. Therefore ... the murderer must be somebody in this room.

Colonel Pickering: What body?

Inspector Tiger: Somebody. In this room. Must the murderer be. The murderer of the body is somebody in this room, which nobody must leave... leave the body in the room not to be left by anybody. Nobody leaves anybody or the body with somebody. Everybody who is anybody shall leave the body in the room body. Take the tablets Tiger. Anybody (as he searches for the tablets) with a body but not the body is nobody. Nobody leaves the body in the ... (he takes the tablet) Albody me introbody albodyduce.

(At this moment a surgeon enters with two nurses and starts to operate on his head with sawing noises. Caption on the screen: 'THE SAME DRAWING ROOM. ONE LOBOTOMY LATER'. The surgeon is packing up. Inspector Tiger's head is bandaged.)

Surgeon: Now for Sir Gerald.

Inspector: That's better, now I'm Inspector Tiger and I must ask that nobody leave the room. (he gives thumbs up to the surgeon who is at door) Now someone has committed a murder here, and that murderer is someone in this room. The question is ... who?

Colonel Pickering: Look, there hasn't been a murder.

Inspector Tiger: No murder.

All: No.

Inspector Tiger: Oh. I don't like it. It's too simple, too clear cut. I'd better wait. (he sin on sofa) No, too simple, too clear cut.

(The lights go out. There is a scream followed by a shot. The light goes up. Inspector Tiger is dead. He has a bullet hole in his forehead, an arrow through his neck and there is a bottle marked poison on his lap.)

Colonel Picketing: By jove, he was right.

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-10 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
36. I think Tiger misrepresents Catholic beliefs about confession,
because these beliefs can't be explained completely by his view that religion merely provides communal comfort

I think the actual belief is something like this: Our imperfect intents and behaviors are a continuing source of oppressive sorrow in the world, not only to ourselves but also to others. Desiring to reduce the sorrows of the world means: we should want and try to perfect ourselves (even if we cannot do so fully). Since our imperfections oppress and sorrow others, and their imperfections oppress and sorrow us, any remedy must include willingness to admit our imperfections, not only to ourselves, but also to others, for if we deny our imperfections, we cannot begin perfect ourselves; and if we deny our imperfections, we will hypocritically judge others for being imperfect. Therefore one confesses one's imperfect intent and behavior, as a step towards reform: such confession is meaningless, if one is not really attempting reform. Since our instincts and habits are not easy to reform, we will not see any immediate victory: we sometimes make very little progress despite our efforts, but should continue to try in good faith. It is not the ritual which is sacramental but the desire to reform
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