Close 3-way Deity Tie in Chilean mine rescue...

[onager]

The three Christian denominations have each claimed credit for what they say is divine intervention in the survival - and expected imminent rescue - of the 33 men who have spent 67 days beneath the earth.

"God has spoken to me clearly and guided my hand each step of the rescue," said Carlos Parra Diaz, a Seventh-day Adventist pastor at the San Jose mine. "He wanted the miners to be rescued and I am His instrument."

Yards from where he spoke Caspar Quintana, the Catholic bishop of Copiapo, prepared an altar to celebrate an outdoor mass for a small congregation of miners' relatives and phalanx of TV cameras. "God has heard our prayers," said the bishop. "I have received comments of encouragement from all over the world. Let us give thanks."

A little bit further up the hill of Camp Hope, the improvised settlement of miners' families, rescuers, government officials and media, an evangelical preacher, Javier Soto , wandered from family to family with a guitar and songs of praise. "He listens to the music," said the pastor, gesturing to the azure sky.

I have long and still-annoying memories of guitar-slinging evangelical preachers. If I had a family member trapped in a mine and one of these tone-deaf warbling fuckheads showed up, he'd need mining equipment to remove that guitar from the orifice where I would cram it.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/

In another story on the same page, P.Z. Meyers wrote this...which should be engraved over courthouses and probably tattooed on some foreheads:

Remember this every time someone accuses an atheist of being arrogant — we don't claim to be speaking for a cosmic tyrant who will torture you for eternity if you don't obey us.

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

1. The music was nice

I mean Javier's no Jimi Hendrix or anything, but his songs were sincere. Dad & I have no objection with the music.

Nor do We distinguish any difference between the three different denominations represented. Denominationalism is the work of mankind, not anything Me or My Dad came up with.

I do not care if someone is a Catholic, or a 7th Day Adventist, or an Evangelical. As long as they live by My teachings, that's what's important. :)

[Angry Dragon]

3. Questions beg to be asked

Did you and your father have anything to do with the rescue of these miners??

Why did you find it necessary to put these miners in this precarious
position in the first place??

[FredStembottom]

9. Dad enjoys a good prank.

n/t

[aquart]

2. I always say Thank you to God. It's polite.

[cleanhippie]

15. Thank you for what? Trapping the miners in the mine?

I mean, if god was responsible for getting them out, then he was responsible for getting them is n the first place.

[TZ]

4. Its condescending to those who are working their butts off

to accomplish these rescues. Obviously those working hard to help here (AND PUTTING THEIR LIVES AT STAKE TOO) are just meaningless tools...

[humblebum]

5. My answer to any atheist that would object to this is a simple -

Who cares what you think? I am sure not one family member had a single objection. And PZ Meyers is nothing but a flaming bigot.

[trotsky]

7. "Who cares what you think?"

You have the same compassion of another famous Christian: Gee Dubya Bush.

[TZ]

8. Ah yes, the your opinion doesn't matter.

Post. Should we all go and sit at the back of the bus like nice minorities are supposed to do. Yep, those uppity atheists causing problems with their opinions and views.

[trotsky]

11. Well and never mind the believer's privilege on display.

Perhaps there are some non-believing miners and/or families. Are we supposed to believe that they wouldn't be shunned/ostracized should they merely suggest that they don't appreciate all the religious add-ons? Ha! No, as usual, we are to remain silent and respectful as believers parade their beliefs around as if everyone embraced and supported them. We atheists can never forget our place.

[humblebum]

21. If there are atheist miners and their families, they have every right

not to pray, but no right to tell others how to respond or act. It really is none of their business.

[trotsky]

32. Of course the most obvious evidence of believer's privilege...

is that those who enjoy it are completely unable to acknowledge it. Fuck the minority, they can sit down and shut up.

[TZ]

35. but its okay for YOU to tell atheists what they should or should not say!

I got it. Your double standard is disgusting.

[Goblinmonger]

45. Just so it is clear:

Believers: have every right to outwardly pray, have support people there for their beliefs, and get the respect for said beliefs from everyone.

Non-Believers: can shut the fuck up and not say anything.

[humblebum]

20. When it comes to how families deal with crisis and their loved ones,

it shows a total lack of compassion to criticize that. Not much different than Ol' whatshisname from Westboro Baptist crashing funerals.

[Goblinmonger]

30. It's quite obviously different.

Let me explain it for you since you seemed to miss it.

1. Phelps is demonstrating AT THE FUNERAL where those people can see him (personally, I think it is protected speech but that's another issue).
2. The people on this thread AREN'T talking to any of the miners.

As I said on a thread in GD: If one of those miners that believed God saved them were in front of me, I would give him a hug and not say a single word about his beliefs. But from thousands of miles away, I think it's safe for me to comment without showing a "total lack of compassion."

[humblebum]

31. When you make your comments on a site as well known as DU,

you are not exactly talking to yourself. Democratic Underground is one of the more well known places for political discussion on the web, as is evidenced by remarks made by conservative talk show hosts from time to time.

[Goblinmonger]

33. They can suck me.

I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about your claim that it is insensitive to say what what said. My response was that it isn't insensitive because we aren't talking TO THEM. THEY are the ones that would be sensitive about it. Unless you have have indication that said miners are following this thread on DU, we can certainly hash out the issues surrounding them.

If there are any of the affected miners reading this post, I did not mean any offense to you and apologize for any perceived insensitivity. You went through a horrific ordeal and I am glad you were able to make it through.

[TZ]

34. Your comments are as hateful as you are accusing atheists of being

You realize that right? Did I say anything saying those people are stupid or ignorant. NO. I said -and if you pay attention thats WHAT EVERYONE IS SAYING...IS THAT ITS INSULTING TO CREDIT THE RESCUE TO A BEING THAT NOT EVERYONE THINKS EXISTS and it undercuts the REAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE RESCUE.
But hey, why should anyone bother with complimenting scientists and engineers. They are probably all asshole atheists anyway right? :sarcasm:

[humblebum]

36. No one that I can see is discounting the efforts of the professionals involved

and the people down there have been wholly recognizing their contributions. Again, if any anyone, including atheists, tried to control the reactions and emotions of the family members or any expression of personal faith, then those people would have a right to be outraged. If such was actually the case, then they would do well to tell anyone who criticises their personal actions to get lost.

[Goblinmonger]

40. And if pigs flew out of my ass

I'd get a special segment on CNN.

You are just building all these strawmen to make yourself feel better. When has any atheist on here said they wanted that to be done?

[cleanhippie]

43. The league of militant atheists!!!!!!!

I just wanted to get it out there before he did. We all know its coming soon...

[WillParkinson]

12. I'm guessing you do...

After all, you took the time to tell us that you don't care what we think. If you truly didn't care you wouldn't have bothered.

[PVnRT]

14. Who cares what YOU think?

See? I can play, too.

[cleanhippie]

16. Are you lying for jesus again?

Because you DO care what we think.

[onager]

19. Meyers is a bigot?

:rofl:

[Evoman]

24. Ha! You do.

Clicking on the thread, then clicking on reply, than writing a response. See,by responding to your post, I show how much I care. Of course, I care what you think in a "I hope this post gets a rise out of him" kind of way.

Not caring is turning around and falling asleep when your wife complains you didn't give her an O. Not trying to explain to her why you don't think her O is important or why vaginal O's aren't possible....that just screams defensiveness (also, small penis). Also, telling her that you don't give her O's because Stalin was pro-orgasm also classifies as caring.

[laconicsax]

27. !!!

:rofl:

"Also, telling her that you don't give her O's because Stalin was pro-orgasm also classifies as caring."

[_ed_]

49. Yes,

being scientifically, logically, and rationally coherent isn't a worthwhile way to go through life. Much better to believe that a magic sky-god plans mining disasters only to save miners to show his greatness.

There were American mining disasters in Utah and WV last year where many miners died. Why didn't your magic sky daddy save them? Were they the wrong religion? Was he too busy?

[yellerpup]

6. Is there a poll?

I'd like to see who's winning in this three way race. Besides the miners, of course. Many thanks to the rescuers. Gives me faith in humanity.

[DeSwiss]

10. K&R

These danged preachers are just a bunch of posers! Everyone knows that only the Good Mother "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachamama">Pachamama" is the only one who could save them.




- She never gets credit anymore......

[immoderate]

13. God makes it SEEM as if he took no direct hand in the rescue.

But that's humility for you. God acts in such a way as to allow non-believers to credit technology and cooperation for the rescue. But believers see his almighty hand, immersed to the elbow in fixing the problem.

--imm

[cleanhippie]

17. Interesting. Did god also have anything to do with them getting trapped in the first place?

Hard to have one without the other, right?

[immoderate]

18. Indeed! If god did not create these situations...

There would be no need for miracles! But here's where the self-effacedness comes in: god makes it appear that he has no hand in it. They LOOK like random events! But what's another term for "random events?" It's ACTS OF GOD!!

It's not every supreme being who can be demonstrably omnipotent and modest at the same time. Also sneaky.

--imm

[cleanhippie]

22. Riiight.

Nice rationalization there.

[dimbear]

23. Pesky atheists. Have no faith in miracles. Want

safety standards.

[cleanhippie]

25. I would be happy with a plain old EVEN standard.

But those damn goalposts just keep moving around!

[laconicsax]

29. Standards mean accountability.

Accountability is a death knell for religion.

[immoderate]

26. Thank you. It gets better.

Consider that god is working out a Munchhausen by proxy syndrome. No disasters -- no miracles. You wouldn't need them. So god causes disasters, along with everything else. And if not for miracles, like the coal mine rescue, how would we know? And if god's ways are mysterious, irrational works in his favor.

As long as it's not too obvious.:freak:

--imm

[laconicsax]

28. So God creates disasters and suffering to get attention?

What a petty jackass!

I guess the Biblical accounts of the Abrahamic god being a petulant child were spot on.

[immoderate]

39. No, the miracles get attention.

Disasters and suffering are the excuse.

--imm

[laconicsax]

41. The excuse for what?

Munchausen by proxy is when you prevent someone in your care from getting well so that you can keep getting attention for "caring" for them.

If you extend that to the relationship you allege between God and humanity, God creates disasters and suffering to get attention for the related "miracles." That makes God essentially a supernatural, celestial sociopath.

I have no problem with this description, I just wonder if it's what you meant.

[cleanhippie]

44. So its all about showing off?

He creates disasters and suffering just so he can perform a "miracle" to show off his subtle use of omnipotence?


Riiiight.

[immoderate]

46. Makes perfect sense.

;)

-imm

[_ed_]

48. Your "god" is a cosmic tyrant

invented by men.

[Dorian Gray]

50. How can he be a tyrant

if he was invented by men?

[pokerfan]

37. I thought this summed it up

[Ian David]

38. Next time, let's just sit at the top of the shaft & pray them out, instead of digging them out. n/t

[pokerfan]

42. It's 50-50 in this poll

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/10/poll_to_determine_who_saved_th.php

And this cartoon from the comments...

http://macleodcartoons.blogspot.com/2010/10/chilean-mine-rescue-question-for-god.html

[onager]

47. Great comments in that thread...

I really like this one...

Being glad that the miners survived does not make the attempts of religious groups to use this event to proselytise their woo by claiming the work of science for their unevidenced god any less unethical.

There is no question of 'who or what' was responsible. We know that it was human scientific knowledge that made the rescue of these men possible, not magic sky fairy dust.

Cue the "P.Z. Myers is a bigot" club in 5, 4, 3, 2...