Why does the Coexist bumper sticker not include non-believers?

[Goblinmonger]

Just thinking about this bumper sticker tonight as our Wisconsin town had a neighborhood meeting for a zoning change to allow a Mosque/community center to be built. I couldn't attend, but my daughter went to show her support. There were the expected knuckleheads there talking about Islam being a religion of hatred etc. SO....as I am grading Beowulf papers (epic hero compared to postmodern hero--really cool stuff) I drifted a bit to the above bumper sticker and the possible realities of it. Then I realized I wasn't in there as an atheist. Why not? I'm really not trying to start anything with this one, just kind of interesting. It would have been easy, in my estimation. Move the Star of David from the X to the O and make the X the atom symbol that is approved for military grave markers. Or make that one the O.

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. We've already achieved soexistence...

..and we don't propagate violence against others.

[Poll_Blind]

3. LOL, beat me to it! n/t

PB

[Poll_Blind]

2. Because atheists typically don't start fights with other religions and need bumper...

...stickers reminding them they need to stop getting into other people's shit?

:)

PB

[davidinalameda]

4. atheists don't start fights?

that's funny

I guess referring to religious beliefs as fairy tales and belittling people of faith isn't an attempt to pick a fight

what exactly would you call it?

[Goblinmonger]

7. I think the post was just a little jab

but it seems to me the point being made is not "fight" but "Fight." The violence part. Suicide bombers...Holy wars. REAL fights.

Your attitude seems a little bit aggressive, too. You don't say "some atheists"; you say "atheists." Isn't that the same attitude that you find offensive coming from some atheists?

[davidinalameda]

52. little jabs turn into big japs

which turn into fights

[darkstar3]

54. Freudian slip, perhaps?

[Goblinmonger]

57. So you aren't going to take responsibility for your attitude?

I think the general attitude on this thread from atheists has been very cordial.

[darkstar3]

13. Embracing the truth?

[davidinalameda]

51. the truth huh

you do realize that you sound EXACTLY like a lot of people who believe that their faith is the truth

[darkstar3]

53. Perhaps I should have included a sarcasm tag or winky smiley?

The point, which you missed, is that you take anonymous internet criticism of your inanity far too seriously.

[davidinalameda]

69. inanity

nice choice of words

looks like you're trying to pick a fight

but atheists don't do that

right?

[darkstar3]

72. Oh, I'd say one of us is definitely spoiling for a fight...

[cleanhippie]

55. An opinion.

Thats what I call it.

[jobycom]

10. Sadly, some of our brethren have been less than kind towards believers around here lately.

Enough so to make this atheist weep. :(

[cleanhippie]

56. Example?

What do you mean by "unkind"? Can you give some examples?

[jobycom]

61. No. I made it up. Glad you called me on it. Of course there is no intolerance on DU.

What was I thinking? Geesh! I'm so overly sensitive that I must confuse intellectual enlightenment for arrogant bigotry, just like people who accuse Free Republic of racism and misogyny.

[cleanhippie]

62. Wow, you got all of that from a simple question?

I was looking for a little clarification of what you meant with an example. You certainly got more from my post than I intended.

[jobycom]

63. Yeah, I got all that from a simple question. nt

[cleanhippie]

65. Ok then.

Nonetheless, I never intended for you to infer any of that from my post. I would still like to see an example of what you are referring to in your OP, if its not too much trouble. (I am seriously asking, no snark or sarcasm)

[jobycom]

66. I'm having trouble not believing you are being disingenuous with that question.

I'm sure that's entirely my misperception, but you've seen the threads, you've seen the debates within the threads. That makes it hard for me to believe you really don't know the threads or types of threads I'm refering to. When I'm asked a question that I believe the asker knows the answer to, I generally assume that the questioner is asking rhetorically or attempting a Socratic method of attack, and I generally bristle and evade the question.

Let me ask you: are you saying you haven't seen threads where atheists have been "unkind" to believers, or are you asking because you have seen such threads and want to compare notes on whether we've seen the same threads? I guess an answer to that question would make me less likely to misinterpret your original question.

[cleanhippie]

73. You can only take me at my word.

I understand your reluctance, no worries. I was just hoping to look at an example or two and discuss whether or not I would agree with you.

[Goblinmonger]

64. I think he's talking about the miner thread in GD

That's my guess, anyway.

[Ozymanithrax]

5. There is neither an N nor an A in Coexist. n/t

[Goblinmonger]

9. I guess I'm confused.

There isn't a star in Coexist, either, but they fit that one in there (and the star really looks very little like and X if you ask me--I think it would be better as the O).

[Ozymanithrax]

16. The crescent and star are the symbols of Islam.

So if you replaced it with an X it would no longer work as the symbol. Now, the dot that sometimes appears over the I appears different on differnt bumper stickers, I've seen it as the YingYang symbol, and sometimes as the Budhist Dharmachakra wheel symbol,though here it appears to be the pentagram of wicca.

[Goblinmonger]

17. Sorry, I was talking about the Star of David

that is the X (that is what I usually see in that position in other manifestations). I wasn't referring to the crescent which makes absolute sense in that position.

From what I remember, the "original" (it was a Polish artist if I remember correctly) only had the crescent, the Star of David, and the cross and other things were added in as time went on.

[Ozymanithrax]

21. It has gone through more incarnations than a Hindu god...

This is only its most recent avatar.

[vixengrl]

12. My thought also--envisioning where a scarlet "A" might be inserted---

Maybe we exist in the open spaces wherever the letters of COEXIST are not? Innocence of the idea of God being the original state of man. His invention only coming later--in several iterations.

[Ozymanithrax]

18. Would have to be really early, as atested to by the Botswana 'snake rock'

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30693310.htm">Botswana 'snake rock' may show Stone Age religion


70,000 years ago is a long time ago.

[Goblinmonger]

19. That is a relatively new symbol

and would be very hard, admittedly, to work into the scheme.

But this one (I took the URL from the avatar that DU offers)

could be included and is not as new of a symbol.

[PassingFair]

93. How about dotting the "i" with an atomic symbol?

That would be nice.

[vixengrl]

95. I like that choice, although I think the star dotting the "i" in some renditions

might already stand for some religion? Some versions use a candle for the "I". Maybe the atomic symbol within the flame? Some have a kind of star above a conventional letter "i"--I don't know if that stands for something. Or it could be a period at the end of "Coexist" as if to say, "Well, be good to each other because it might not matter to any God, anyway."

[PhilosopherKing]

6. Atheists don't have a symbol

Symbols are the first step to being recognized.

[Goblinmonger]

8. As I alluded to in my OP

there is an approved symbol for atheists to use on their military grave markers that has been around for some time. That one would be acceptable and is used by a many atheists on here.

[jobycom]

11. I didn't know we had a symbol.

No one tells me anything.

[darkstar3]

14. I didn't know we had a king!

[trotsky]

40. Well I didn't vote for him!

[Goblinmonger]

15. The Dept of Veteran Affairs

has a list of approved symbols for graves. It includes an atheist symbol.

http://www.cem.va.gov/hm/hmemb.asp

[jobycom]

25. Ick. What is that, the St Louis Arch with Wonder Dog flying around it?

I realize it's supposed to be an atom, but I don't see how that's a symbol of atheism. I don't disbelieve in gods because I believe in science, I disbelieve in them for a lot of reasons.

Then again, if I ever die (I'm making alternate plans, see), I wouldn't want any symbol involving any religion on my stone, even if it's a reference to a lack of religion (which would make my lack of religion into another variance of religion). I'd want something that means something to me--like, I don't know, a Shakespearean sonnet about beauty, or some quote from Plato or Hemmingway or Abba... you know, the greats. I wouldn't want any reference that defined me in terms of a whole sphere of thought, for or against, I don't really define myself by. If that makes any sense.

Maybe that's why we're not on the COEXIST sticker. Maybe we're the space where the religious symbols aren't. That works for me.

[Goblinmonger]

26. Yeah, I'm not sure I really like it either.

But if you have plans to die while in the military and then be buried in a military graveyard, you are stuck with the options the government give you, I'm afraid.

I don't want to be buried. Just burn me and use me as fertilizer. I am actually really hoping that green burials take off so that they just dump me in an unfinished pine box with no embalming and plant me in a forest so I can be even more effective fertilizer. But in the end, I'll be dead so I won't give a shit, I guess.

I hope my family follows my wishes to have a party and read some great literature, too. Maybe I need to come up with a list of selections so they don't read crap.

[jobycom]

30. Hey, I like that.

A natural pine box, and back to the Earth. I love all writing, so they can read whatever makes them happiest. Except Ayn Rand. But no one in my family would know what to do if they found a book that long, anyway, so I'm pretty safe there. I'll probably get an ingredients list. :)

[beam me up scottie]

86. Wow, that's exactly what I want done with my carcass when I kick the bucket.

No poisons pumped in me, no wake, maybe just a party and then I want to be returned to my beloved Lake Champlain to swim with the fishes for eternity.

I'm glad I'm not alone, everyone here thinks I'm bonkers. Like wanting to rot all alone in a metal box in the cold hard ground is logical...

[ChadwickHenryWard]

89. I'm donating my body to science.

There can be no greater end.

[beam me up scottie]

92. Respect.

:thumbsup:

[FLyellowdog]

24. Do we have to pay dues? nt

[Goblinmonger]

27. Checks payable to Goblinmonger.

$500 a year. Tax deductible (why not, huh?)

[FLyellowdog]

29. The check's in the mail.

:rofl:

[jobycom]

31. Reminds me of a joke everyone has heard.

A dying rich man gives $500,000 in cash each to his lawyer, his preacher, and his banker, and tells them, "Friends, they say you can't take it with you, but I'm going to try. I want each of you to toss those envelopes full of my money in my casket just before they close it."

On that solemn day each man does as told, and after the service they meet at graveside to discuss the matter. The lawyer says "I have to confess, he died owing me money, so I kept ten percent of his cash as payment, plus expenses and damages. I don't suppose he'll mind." The preacher frowns, then says, "I just couldn't do it, even if those were his dying wishes. I skimmed off twenty percent for the orphanage I look over, which was in greater need of the money than he will be from now on."

The banker stood in silence, shaking his head. "Gentlemen, I'm ashamed of both of you. I would never have betrayed our friend like that. I wrote him a check for the full amount."

[trotsky]

41. Ha ha

Heard that one a little differently - it was his gold-digging widow who wrote the check. I think I like your version better. :)

[jobycom]

28. Oh, Hell no! Count me out! If there are dues, I'm going to make up some god to get out of them.

I worship the mighty Snuffers Cheddar Fries. It has been my source of comfort in times of sadness, my source of sustenance in times of hunger. It has power over my life (arteries, anyway), and often calls me to a higher goal--well, belching may not be a higher goal, but... well, it's a new religion, I'm working on it.

If I have to pay dues to any religion, I want Cheddar Fries in return, dammit. So I'll just cut out the middle man, um, middle god.

[PVnRT]

43. The Bohr model of the hydrogen atom works for me

[CC]

20. You could always go with a different one.

This is the one I have.



I liked the E=mc2 on it since science gets attacked by fundies of all flavors.


Here is a short history of the origins. http://davidwilliamson.blogspot.com/2006/02/coexist-pro-logo.html
The original looks like this.

[Goblinmonger]

23. I like that

but many will argue that science doesn't equal atheism. But I do think it is clever.

Bonus points to me for remembering that it was a Polish artist.

[Goblinmonger]

22. Not trying to hit and run with this OP

but I finished with the the aforementioned Beowulf papers and need to be up in less than 6 hours to teach, so I'm going to grab some sleep but will return in the morning over coffee to continue the discussion.

Thanks all.

[Hardrada]

32. Because you can't prove a negative.

[Goblinmonger]

38. I'm not trying to.

I don't believe in any gods. How is that proving a negative? And why should coexist only apply to religions (and have said religions proved their positives)?

[onehandle]

33. Because non-belief is not a religion.

So I'm told.

[laconicsax]

35. What religion is represented by the peace symbol?

Which religions are represented by the male and female symbols? Do Ares and Aphrodite cults get included?

[Goblinmonger]

39. So only religions should coexist?

Religions don't care if they can coexist with atheists?

Is that what I'm to take from you comment? Just making sure I am interpreting it correctly.

[onehandle]

48. I was only commenting on the Atheism aspect.

Like it or not, Atheism is related to religion. And there is no common symbol that anyone would recognize as Atheism.

Bumper stickers and billboard are supposed to be easy to understand. This one says 'Can’t We All Just Coexist?'

You can assume it means Everyone. There are thousands of religions (and concepts) not represented on the sticker.

Don't take it personally. It's for everybody, but the symbols used are easy to digest quickly.

[rug]

34. It's not an ironic sticker.

[Goblinmonger]

37. So if an atheist were to say that to a believer

you would be crying about the evil atheists. Why do you think it is appropriate for you to enter with that snark? I don't think my attitude has been anything near inappropriate in this thread?

[rug]

46. The history of discourse in this forum suggests otherwise.

Complaining about snark is further irony.

BTW, I don't cry about evil atheists. That's just another predisposition that interferes with discussion.

[cleanhippie]

58. I hope you recognize your own hand in that "history of discourse" you are talking about.

[rug]

67. And you yours.

[cleanhippie]

75. You are like talking to a 2nd grader sometimes...

The equivalent of "I know you are but what am I", or "I'm rubber you're glue, what you say bounces off of me and sticks to you." Childish responses, but worthy of the occasional chuckle.

Till next time, rug.

:toast:

[Goblinmonger]

59. Please point out where my discourse on this thread has been hostile

I have tried very hard to start a discussion on something that I was thinking of.

YOU came in with the attitude. Why can't you take responsibility for that? Why is it OK for you but not OK for others? You talk about the history of discourse but certainly don't seem to want to take that as an explanation for why some atheists in here might respond with hostility given their history of discourse out in the world.

[rug]

68. As I said, it's the history of this forum, not the thread.

The irony of a post in this forum, complaining that atheists are not included on a bumper sticker called "Coexist", is palpable.

[Goblinmonger]

70. Another case in point about your level of fault in this.

I made it very clear (several times) that I was not complaining. Please show me where my tone is anywhere near that. It was a question. Yet on this forum (where I have done nothing offensive) and on that thread where I went out of my way to make sure I wasn't coming across as snarky, you come out with the snarky attitude.

You can take responsibility for your actions. I tried to create a couple discussions indicating that I could take responsibility for my actions by presenting points in a very non-confrontational attitude. When does that responsibility come from you?

[rug]

71. As has often been said here, this is a public discussion board.

Don't post if you don't want a response.

Your tone in this thread has been deliberately subdued. Yet your history, along with distinct others, of posting about theism and towards theists is this forum is decidedly not.

I merely find your concern about a bumper sticker amusing. I do not, however, find your beliefs amusing or mock them. Can you say the same?

[Goblinmonger]

74. I'm fine with the response.

Shouldn't that same standard apply to the theists? If they don't want a response, then they shouldn't post. But that would cause significant tension with their believers privilege, now wouldn't it.

So you've dialed down from whining to concern. That's at least a step in the right direction.

And I believe you do find my beliefs (which I still contend are strawmen of your creation, btw) amusing which is why you made the "ironic" comment above and you have mocked them (which you did in your last post with "deliberately subdued"--can you imagine the shock and outrage from you and others if I ever attempted to read the mind of a theist and tell them what they believed and were thinking--and you did above with the word "whining"--another instance where if that word were used against a theist's position you and others would be screaming evil atheist). Doesn't bother me. I have thick skin and enjoy the debate. Perhaps those that don't should follow your advice and not post on a public discussion board (isn't it a bitch when your double standard is so obvious?).

[rug]

76. I didn't find your belief amusing, I found your reaction to a bumper sticker amusing.

And I didn't say whining, but if the shoe fits . . . .

I too enjoy debate. Too bad there's so little of it here. Just much uninformed prejudged posing. (Nice insertion of "belivers (sic) privilege", by the way).

I would say more but my thin skin is suppurating from being called a second grader by one one of your colleagues above.

[darkstar3]

77. For you of all people to complain of a lack of debate here on this forum is delicious irony. n/t

[rug]

80. That's a well-reasoned statement.

And a typical example of non debate.

And that was an observation not a complaint.

[Goblinmonger]

79. Amazing how one person's insult is another's comment

If an atheist were to give that explanation, you and others would rail at it.

You're right, you didn't say whining but said complaining. Same argument applies, though. Atheists couldn't get away with that without backlash.

My apologies for the type--it was a nice allusion to another thread, though, wasn't it.

[rug]

81. More amazing is how one person's insult tries to pass off as debate.

So, how is that coexistence thing working out?

[Goblinmonger]

82. So if I point out that you are doing the thing you complain about

it is I that is somehow not playing along well with other? Interesting.

Brings up an old question you never answered: When are you going to take responsibility for YOUR actions rather than just point at the flaws of others?

[rug]

83. So, are you saying you are taking responsiblity for those posts?

Or simply deflecting by accusing?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

88. You hijacked the thread

Fuck man, get over yourself.

[rug]

90. A five word post cannot hijack a thread.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

91. The enormous subthread it spawned shows otherwise

[trotsky]

98. GM, the guy freely gives his time and money to an institution...

that encourages hatred against homosexuals, that protects child rapists, that subjugates and demeans women, that denies family planning services to millions and millions of people who desperately need it. I *think* that bothers him on some level - however rather than direct that energy at reforming his church or just leaving it, he evidently has decided to take up the much more important cause of tweaking atheists who at their very worst say some impolite things on an anonymous Internet message board.

You gotta pick your noble causes, ya know?

[laconicsax]

36. Moving the Star of David would put the Jews and Muslims next to each other...

That hasn't always worked out terribly well.

[Meshuga]

44. Not in the last century or so

But for most of history Jews have lived in Muslim societies without much problem. Jews were (waaaay) worse off in Christian societies.

[trotsky]

47. Don't be silly.

In another thread, a Christian assured us that they, as their savior foretold, have walked the hardest path.

[Meshuga]

78. They surely have. n/t

[Nihil]

42. It does

Non-believers are all of the blank bits where nothing has been written
(thus representing the primordial innocence before theistic concepts
were deliberately introduced into the system).

No religious symbol is necessary because atheism isn't a religion.

:shrug:

[ZombieHorde]

45. There is also no Hinduism, Shinto, or Buddhism.

I wouldn't read too much into the sticker.

[onehandle]

49. Exactly. nt

[Goblinmonger]

50. I'm not trying to go off on a tear. Just wondering

And there is Buddhism in the one I embedded--the dot on the I. And there's at least Taoism in there.

[ZombieHorde]

84. What does the star in the circle represent? I thought it was a new age thing. nt

[Taverner]

60. Because we don't have a cool symbol

Even the military doesn't know what to put on our gravestones, so they put an atom on it

[dimbear]

85. The agnostics have a cool symbol which I would settle for. The

? mark.

[beam me up scottie]

87. Is it too late? Have we voted yet?

I think the FSM would make an awesome addition to the bumper sticker AND the markers in military cemeteries.

And be glad you only have a few local knuckleheads protesting the mosque, try living with the extremists in http://www.tennessean.com/article/20100829/NEWS01/8290365/Feds-investigate-fire-at-Murfreesboro-mosque-site">Murphreesboro, Tn.
I'm afraid that won't be the last violent incident, either.

[Evoman]

94. Do we have a symbol? Why? I hate symbols.

Symbols are for dumb, easily led people. Even if I did have a symbol, it would probably be a big middle finger with the words "I luvs you" underneath it.

What? I'm a man of contradictions.

[Lost-in-FL]

96. because atheism isn't religion. nt

[GliderGuider]

97. There are different ones. Here's one with E=MC2 for science, and a Buddhist wheel of Dharma

On the original you posted, the male/female "e" is completely inclusive of atheists.