For theists: do you believe God has simultaneous knowledge of the whole universe?

[muriel_volestrangler]

ie do you think God knows what happens on earth on in the Andromeda Galaxy at the same time, thus getting round the restriction of passing information only at the speed of light?

If so, could God, in theory, act as a conduit for us to communicate with aliens, without us having worry about spaceships or radio signals that take years to get anywhere? (If we asked him really nicely ... :D)

Or, if God is limited by the speed of light, does that mean that effectively, any aliens have their own God, since God here has to take years to swap information with God there?

[Jackpine Radical]

1. Maybe God IS the Universe.

Pantheism always made more sense to me than some bearded guy with a temper problem.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

16. If that's so,

then the God contains all information, because the universe contains all information. However, the speed of light restriction on speed very much applies to the universe.

Of course, this is all moot, because the universe doesn't know anything, lacking consciousness.

[Jackpine Radical]

24. Prove to me that YOU're conscious.

For that matter, prove to me that you exist.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

31. I appear to.

Isn't that good enough? There is compelling evidence that I exist, and no evidence against. That should be good enough for all but the most pedantic and solipsistic purposes.

[Jackpine Radical]

39. A, but

pedantry and solipsism are exactly what I was trying to invoke. :)

[Uben]

2. Weedhopper!

God IS the universe! The all-knowing, the omnipotent. The Alpha and the Omega. He is....the one!

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. If God is the Universe, then it is restricted to the speed of light

(and it wouldn't make sense to call God 'he' either ...).

Definition question: is pantheism a subset of theism, or separate? I'd have said it's separate.

[GliderGuider]

36. Is the universe restricted to the speed of light in all cases?

What about entanglement?

Entanglement remains a mystery

If two particles are “entangled”, so quantum mechanics says, any tinkering with one can cause an instantaneous change in the other, no matter how separated they are.

Einstein rejected this notion as “spooky action at a distance”. But what if quantum mechanics is not quite right — that the change is not instantaneous, but instigated by a signal transmitted between the two entangled particles? Now an experiment performed in Switzerland has showed that, if such a signal does exist, it would have to travel at least as fast as light, and probably thousands of times faster.

The experiment, which has been performed by Nicolas Gisin and colleagues from the University of Geneva, is similar to other experiments that attempt to test entanglement, albeit on a larger scale. The researchers first entangle two photons at Geneva, and then send them 9 km in opposite directions — due east and west — to interferometers based at the Swiss villages of Jussy and Satigni. At these two locations they look for any interference between the photons. If the interference is above a reasonable level — given by the so-called Bell inequality — it implies the photons are changing their properties instantaneously to suit each other.

It's not conclusive proof, of course, and classical information transfer is limited to the speed of light, but there seems to be some provisional evidence that all is not as it seems in the quantum world.

I have no idea what this means as far as "God's knowledge" goes (now there's a null phrase if I ever heard one). However the idea that every element of the universe might at some level be connected with every other element, without the requirement for time, is an idea I'm not going to shut the door on just yet.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

37. None of that implies that a signal is moving at speed.

As far as I understand, the math says that it happens instantaneously. It doesn't move through space, which means it doesn't move at any speed. If it doesn't have speed it's not moving faster than the speed of light.

[GliderGuider]

38. Exactly.

So what does it mean if something has no speed, yet appears in a second place instantaneously? It's an interesting thought experiment.

"Nothing" really does move faster than the speed of light...

[tularetom]

3. God probably knows all that stuff but why should God care

It's God's job to create the spark that led ultimately to the current state of the universe. God is neither some sort of a cosmic ma bell serving as a medium for communication with entities in faraway galaxies nor a universal superjudge who knows everything about everybody and punishes us if we fart in church.

God has more important shit to do than worry about us. I don't know what it is but I'm not supposed to. If I knew I'd be God.

[Uben]

5. What if you did know, but forgot?

Technically, that means you could still be god, but with a kinda shitty memory.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. Who defined the job for God?

And how do you know that caring about communication, or us, isn't in the job definition as well?

[trotsky]

22. Isn't your god's plan for us that we learn and grow as individuals and a species?

What could be a more educational experience than getting to communicate with a freaking alien species? Think of the perspective that could give us. Perhaps the aliens have solved problems that perplex us, and vice-versa. Both civilizations could benefit. What's more important to your god than taking care of its creation?

[tularetom]

25. IMO god does not give a rats ass about us

God's job is to create stuff not worry about it once it gets created but just let it evolve.

If we screw it up, no matter, there's an infinite number of planets out there in various stages of their life cycles.

Pretty much a hands off type of manager, that God.

[trotsky]

26. OK, so you first said that your god "has more important shit to do"

Now you're saying he's "hands off".

So what's the "more important shit" that he needs to do if he's not bothering with anything in this universe at all?

[tularetom]

27. Creating more of the universe

Perhaps I erred in calling god a "hands off manager". He (and I never said god was male but let's say "he" for the sake of discussion) isn't a manager at all but he is hands off. God is simply a creator. Once he gets something started, it is more or less on it's own.

And again, I don't know WTF god does all day. I'm not the boss of him.

That's sort of the point isn't it? I don't know. And neither do you. We're all just spitballing here.

[trotsky]

33. Hilarious.

You simultaneously want to declare you know exactly what your god does or doesn't do, but also that you have no clue at all what it does or doesn't do.

Always funny to laugh at theists (even though you're more of a deist) and their contortions. Thanks!

[DURHAM D]

4. No. But she is watching me. nt

[hedgehog]

8. Already asked and answered

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. Odd-numbered Star Trek films don't count

Everyone knows that!

[unorthodox]

43. Good one.

[Ian David]

9. God is too busy worrying about what you do with your penis. n/t

[Beartracks]

10. Well, when Alderaan exploded...

... Obi-Wan felt millions of voices cry out in terror and be suddenly silenced, simultaneous with the planet's destruction.

Even traveling at "light speed" (a technology that appears to move ships from Point A to Point B FASTER than light), it took the Millennium Falcon a little while to get to Alderaan's (former) location. So, if God or His will is analagous to "the Force"... then I'd argue for the "simultaneous knowledge" position.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[ChadwickHenryWard]

15. How do you know it was instantaneous?

It isn't stated in the film that it happened instantly. Maybe the disturbance in the Force was moving at the speed of light, and took some time to reach Obi-Wan.

This is all pointless, of course, because in that scene, the Millennium Falcon was moving faster than light speed anyway.

[Beartracks]

29. OK... it was EDITED to appear instantaneous. :)

lol

And since the falcon was moving TOWARD Alderaan's location, the speed of the force disturbance is somewhat irrelevant, as it would have encountered Obi-Wan en route regardless.

-------------

[dark forest]

12. yeah

otherwise, is He God?

[AC_Mem]

13. You speak as if God were a "being"

Whereas I feel that The Creator is a living, creating force that contains All That Is. As such, I believe that It has complete knowledge of everything being drawn into, created out of, and actively being. No agenda, no judgment, just creation and release and then it is our job to figure it out and find a way to evolve to the point where we are reabsorbed into Creation for it to begin all over again.

Interesting question. I've never had to write out my belief before, it feels weird to type it. :)

p.s. As for aliens, I believe that they are out there, they are much more evolved than we are and when they are ready for communication, we will know it without question.

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. The most common theistic position is that 'God' is a being (the supreme one)

and I didn't want to limit the question to just Christians, so I used 'theists'.

Aren't we "reabsorbed into Creation" when we die? Can't we just wait a few decades, and then succeed at that without evolving?

[AC_Mem]

28. Wait a few decades ?? LOL

Now we enter into the realm of belief in reincarnation.... :)

Here is a book I highly recommend: Journey of Souls by Michael Newton PhD. Comes closest to explaining "life between lives" on the other side that I have ever read. Having explored all kinds of different states of consciousness and being an intuitive, this book rings my bell of truth.

Peace, Annette

[ChadwickHenryWard]

14. Faster-than-light transmission of information is theoretically possible.

When two electrons are quantum entangled, a change in the quantum spin in one causes a change in the quantum spin in the other. This happens literally instantaneously over any distance, even the size of the entire universe. That's a transmission of information faster than the speed of light.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. And I suppose if anything has been able to set up entangled electrons across the universe

then it would be the creator of the universe. OK, it seems reasonable, then, to assume a theistic omnipotent god could, if it wished, put us in immediate contact with all other lifeforms. The question is then how do we get it to open a communications channel?

[ChadwickHenryWard]

20. There are a lot of things in the universe that people look at

and declare obvious agency or intentionality. I can't stretch my imagination far enough to include quantum entanglement in that category. Now, I'm not one of those people who claims to "understand" quantum mechanics. Hell, I don't even know what "quantum spin" means. I just know that it's an observed quality of electrons, which presumably has some measurable quantity to it, considering it has been observed to change. But I think that if there is one single thing in this universe that does not show apparent intentionality, it's quantum mechanics. I don't know how anybody could conceive that something that is, so far as we can tell, truly random, could be controlled, even by some theoretically omnipotent entity. I should also note that, unless I'm wrong, quantum entanglement is not necessarily some an electron has had since the beginning of time. I believe it was discovered in a particle accelerator, as an unintentional result of an experiment, so it's not strictly accurate to say that only god can create quantum entanglement.

That being said, if quantum spin could be controlled, the alternating institution of two diametrically opposed states would allow communication in binary. To answer your question, I don't really know if god could be compelled to open the lines of communication. If there is a god, it seems to me that he doesn't really have much interest in intervening in human affairs; it looks to me as though god is acting in a manner identical in appearance to his not existing.

[madrchsod]

18. do`t know and i do`t care

more important things in life to ponder

[kriyakid]

21. God and space.

God is the nature of consciousness, which transcends ideas such as time and space on which this time/space continuum is based. In our aspect of consciousness we are, you might say, of the nature of God. As such, when we transcend the mind/body idea in our consciousness we can experience a different relationship with the idea of space wherein we experience circumference nowhere and center everywhere. If we in our consciousness can experience expansion in space, certainly pure consciousness or God can be present simultaneously in all parts of the idea of space.

[rug]

30. Welcome to DU!

[Dorian Gray]

23. No idea.

[struggle4progress]

32. I consider such questions entirely devoid of interest

[trotsky]

34. But you were interested enough to click the thread AND reply.

:rofl:

[ZombieHorde]

35. I should go to the Sports forum and post that in every thread. nt

[_ed_]

40. What god?

Jesus? Ba'al? Thor? Buddha? Do they all have the same magic powers?

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Can Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that even he can't eat it?

All interesting questions in the same vein as yours...

[Nihil]

41. Maybe ...

> For theists: do you believe God has simultaneous knowledge of the whole universe?
> ie do you think God knows what happens on earth on in the Andromeda Galaxy at
> the same time, thus getting round the restriction of passing information only
> at the speed of light?

Some days "Yes" (as in "God is the whole of the Universe" rather than "God is
watching the whole of the Universe") and some days "No" (as in "Why should He?").


> If so, could God, in theory, act as a conduit for us to communicate with aliens,
> without us having worry about spaceships or radio signals that take years to get
> anywhere?

There's an SF story about that too ... sending a prayer through the universe tree?
Nice idea though!


> (If we asked him really nicely ... :D)

"COWER BRIEF MORTALS" ... oh, alright then ...


> Or, if God is limited by the speed of light, does that mean that effectively,
> any aliens have their own God, since God here has to take years to swap
> information with God there?

I remember having to choose a short story as a teenager for a RE class assignment
and picking one by Arthur C. Clarke (sorry, I can't remember the title) where he
proposed that when God creates a universe, He do so to operate under a particular
set of physical laws.

If He could break those laws, it would be possible for other entities in that
universe to do so (no exceptionalism) - hence Man could at some point travel FTL.

On the other hand, if He *can't* break those laws, He is (voluntarily) restricted
by them (hence Man could never travel FTL either).

The end of the story was along the lines of "Yes, He does hear your prayers and
yes, He will be along as fast as possible to fix things up but He's still stuck
with the 186,000 mph limit ...".

I obviously had a Deist leaning even in those days but at least my teacher
(a strict Catholic) took it in good part and treated that discussion as seriously
as any of the others in the class!
:-)


The earlier point also led to an interesting thought: even though there might be
a finite limit to God's speed of awareness (cf. the time between a sensation in
a finger and the conscious recognition/classification/decision/action response),
might there not also be a "shortcut" path available (analogous to the automatic
reaction to pain that is driven from local "control" rather than waiting for the
full sensory response return trip before twitching the finger away)?

I'm not sure that we could "use" that as a messaging path but it would be a real
bugger if our attempts to communicate that way triggered the wrong response ...!
:yoiks:

[Fire Walk With Me]

42. My mystery school teacher was told that God is conscious of all possible interactions/dynamics

in the Universe. And there are many more than one Universe.

IIRC, the Hindu ("Hindu"= "Disciple") state that creation is entirely supported by God; if God lost any amount of consciousness of any aspect of creation, it would cease to be.

If you want to know God, "you're soaking in it". And yet God is said to be separate from creation itself.

[Critters2]

44. Don't know. Don't care. nt