Christians Suing to Impose Christian Prayer on Non-Christian Funerals

[HarveyDarkey]

By Austin Cline, About.com Guide September 2, 2011

In Texas, three Christian military organizations -- Veterans of Foreign Wars District 4, the American Legion Post 586, and the National Memorial Ladies -- have filed suit against the VA because the Veterans' Administration doesn't include Christian prayers in vets' funerals unless the deceased and/or the family request it. They are claiming that Christianity and Christians are being discriminated against when Christianity isn't inserted into every funeral, whether the family wants it or not.

So it's official: there's no extreme to which some Christians won't go in order to claim to be victimized by others choosing to not submit to Christianity. Yes, that's right, non-Christians choose to not follow Christianity means that Christians are being victimized and persecuted. Crazy? Of course, but that's reality in America today.

"It makes my skin crawl that liberals are attempting to drive prayer out of a funeral ceremony for our heroes," Texas Rep. John Culbersontold Fox News, which has given significant airtime to the controversy. "We're going to fix this so that no Obama liberal bureaucrat will interfere with the funeral of a hero." In addition to supporting the lawsuit, Culberson has threatened to stop the salary of the cemetery director who enforced the no-consent-no-God rule and to hold hearings in the fall investigating the VA's anti-Christian stance. ...

Marilyn Koepp, secretary of National Memorial Ladies, a volunteer group that attends veterans' funerals, shares her woes with Fox News: "It's very hard for me to be at the funeral of one of our veterans ... and we just make that decision that we will say God bless you, and how can someone tell us, no you can't."

http://atheism.about.com/b/2011/09/02/christians-suing-to-impose-christian-prayer-on-non-christian-funerals.htm

[Name removed]

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[Kennah]

10. Don't argue. Just give slip Calderón a $5. I'll mail you $10.

[darkstar3]

5. Only on the condition that those who do not wish to renounce our US Citizenship

be allowed to cross the border.

I didn't move to TX for work just so I could end up in the WASP Pakistan.

[Frustratedlady]

3. Explain something to me...

What were these vets fighting for? Freedom? Even after death they don't deserve freedom to be buried as they would have wished? Do these people think others can't think for themselves?

Some days I feel like I'm having a nightmare.

[Tesha]

23. WHy they're fighting for the United States of Jesus, of course! Didn't you know? (NT)

[happyslug]

4. Read the affidavit involved in the case, Someone in the VA FORBADE what the VFW has been doing

http://donttearusdown.com/sites/default/files/felix_sivcoski.pdf

The most recent incident is during a Funeral the local VFW did the VFW complete ceremony. Before the Funeral the Cemetery said no religious prays to the VFW group. The VFW said it would check with the family and only if the family wanted the non-religious that is all the VFW would do. The family AGREED to the full ceremony including the religious parts. When the full ceremony was done the Representative from the cemetery walked off in an apparent huff. The family had no objections (and being a member of the same VFW knew the ceremony).

Just a comment that this is more then someone demanding Christian prays, sounds like the cemetery wants a greater say over ALL ceremonies in the cemetery something the VFW objects to, preferring that be left to the family members.

[haele]

7. It's nice that they want to volunteer to be an honor guard -

But there are rules that the honor guard needs to follow during a military funeral. And they're certainly not supposed to make a little speech as part of their honor guard duties - especially if there is already a chaplin there to give whatever benediction that the family already approved.
They're suing the VA because the VA wanted them to first get permission from the family before they made their "customary" prayer prior to the salute. No matter what the "honor guard"s personal beliefs are, that prayer could be the most disrespectful, dishonorable thing they could do - to over-ride the survivor's wishes by imposing their own personal beliefs into a ceremony for the deceased and his or her family.
Just as bad as the Mormons "baptizing" long-dead people they come across in their genealogy searches without permission or over the wishes of descendants.

Haele

[lunasun]

8. lawsuit against VA = your tax$ Thank a vet who defended your rights .....

as Christian to open worship as your church deems ...to have a funeral from the VA just as is now
no need 2 change.....invaders!!

Religious freedom isn't all about Christian persecution they never see the other side as a valid argument . Then they "just pray for you " that you change ; how respectful

'VA's anti-Christian stance''. ...my ass
it's other way around///who will they try to invade next?

[madrchsod]

9. dumb fucks...

[ZombieHorde]

11. Those folks are so fucked up. nt

[humblebum]

12. Vet's organizations clearly in the right on this one. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

13. How so?

[humblebum]

14. Any prayers were needing to be reviewed and approved before

they could be read at a veteran's funeral. That amounts to censorship. Christian prayers are not going to be said at funerals of veterans of other faiths, but the opposite is the way it seems to be portrayed here. The VA has no right to get involved in the private affairs of a veteran's funeral, period. And the Court seems to agree with that conclusion.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Where are you getting this information?

"Any prayers were needing to be reviewed and approved before they could be read at a veteran's funeral."

They should be. If it is an official function of the military, the VA has made it clear they which to respect the rights' of the family; therefore, any VA official should have his/her remarks approved by the VA as they are the ones apprised of the families wishes.

[humblebum]

16. A veteran's funeral is not an official function of the military. The VFW

and other veterans groups are private organizations made up of veterans. I am a life member of the VFW, and I have participated in these services many times, including Jewish services. Free speech is still free speech and the government has NO right to decide what is said at a private funeral.

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Your post makes NO SENSE in regards to the article.

If the funeral is arranged through the VA then it falls under the VA. Otherwise, what is the point of the this lawsuit?!

[humblebum]

18. Veterans cemeteries are provided as a benefit to veterans for their

service. The veteran's funeral is not paid for by the government, except when the vet was killed in service or is highly decorated, as with a Medal of Honor, and the veteran or family can request not to be buried in a veterans cemetery. Most are not. I don't think you understand that the government has absolutely NO right to dictate ANY memorial given. Purely a family decision. Totally private.

The article to which you refer is from an atheist website, and has put its own spin on the matter. Atheist veterans have the very same rights as other veterans. But if an atheist is going to offended by attending the funeral of a religious veteran, then it is purely their problem and vice versa.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. That doesn't address the issues in the article.

So what if it is an "atheist website," is the information contained within incorrect? If so, then you need to prove how it is wrong. No one said anything about the government paying for the funeral, that is a strawman.

"Purely a family decision." Which the VA seems to support but you and these organizations DO NOT support.

From the article: "...have filed suit against the VA because the Veterans' Administration doesn't include Christian prayers in vets' funerals unless the deceased and/or the family request it." What is the problem? You and they seem to want the funerals to be de facto Christian. How is that respectful? If the chaplin presiding over the funeral is from the VA, then his/her remarks are subject to the VA, which places the desires of the family as the priority.

[humblebum]

20. "You and they seem to want the funerals to be de facto Christian." Where you

got that I will never know. The family, from what I have always seen, controls the funeral or as per the wishes of the deceased. Every person in the service records their relious affiliation upon entering the military, for reasons like this. And it is not unusual to request no service at all. If a VA chaplin is requested, from everything I have ever seen is that they consult with the family beforehand as to their wishes. I believe that to be standard protocol. I think it is rare that a VA chaplain conducts the services. It is absolutely foolish to think that they are going to make every funeral de facto christian. That would be something entirely new and no judge would support it.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. Really? You don't know where I got that?

humblebum (1000+ posts) Sat Sep-03-11 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
12. Vet's organizations clearly in the right on this one. nt

From the article: "have filed suit against the VA because the Veterans' Administration doesn't include Christian prayers in vets' funerals unless the deceased and/or the family request it."

Seems pretty obvious how I reached my conclusion.

The VA supports the family wishes.

[humblebum]

22. Like I said, they have put their own spin on the matter.

The whole story is obviously not being told here.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. As apparently you have (put your own spin on the matter).

If you know the whole story, then share.

[WolverineDG]

25. Interesting how they ignored whole sections of the affidavit

where the "new" policy of having all prayers submitted to the Cemetery director for "approval," after the family says they want the full ceremony with the special prayers. (this is the cemetery in Houston, not Arlington National Cemetery where there actually were incidents of family wishes being ignored---of course the writer didn't call much attention to that fact because that would mess up the spin about the Texas lawsuit being all about imposing prayer where the family states otherwise.)

It appears to me that the problem stems from a lack of communication about what the "full" VFW ceremony is, since the VFW Honor Guard has no contact with the family & is only contacted via the funeral home. Seems that somewhere along the line, *someone* should explain to the family what can be included or excluded from the ceremony. If they want the special prayers, ok. If they don't want them, ok, just do the parts of the ceremony that don't include the prayers. Is it really *THAT* difficult a concept to understand?

From reading the affidavit, it didn't sound to me as though the VFW Honor Guard has any problems leaving the prayers out of the ceremony if the family said "no prayers." The problem stems from some over-bearing pencil-pusher wanting to impose her views on *private* graveside services by requiring all prayers to be submitted to her for "approval" if requested by the deceased veteran's family. :wtf:

dg

[deacon_sephiroth]

26. Now it's been explained to me, Christians ARE the most persecuted

see... (stupid) people keep saying that CHRISTIANS are the most persecuted group in the world. I haven't seen anyone willing to provide any evidence but this post clears it up for me.

"They are claiming that Christianity and Christians are being discriminated against when Christianity isn't inserted into every funeral, whether the family wants it or not."

APPARENTLY, you just have to realize they define words like "discrimination" differently than you, me, and Mr. Webster. They're being discriminated against, and even PERSECUTED every single time, someone somewhere doesn't pay lip service to their crazy sun god.

Just for this...

That does it, I'm military, going to be CAREER military and I'm going to leave very VERY specific instructions for my funeral. It's going to be Satanic, I've had it with this shit. I demand heavy metal, drugs, booze, orgies, and some gratuitious violence over my body, which must then be burned on a pyre (while I'm wearing a Darth Vader costume). Followed by a 21 flamethrower salute, pentagram fireowrks and sodomy for EVERYBODY!!!