Why do I have to sit in the back of the bus, daddy?

[Goblinmonger]

OK, let me start with a premise everyone here can agree upon. This, DU, is not real life. We react to situations differently here on DU than we would in real life because of a lot of reasons. That being said, let me tell you about ME in real life.

I am an atheist as many of you know. I don't give a rat's ass about anyone else's world view as long as it is kept to themself (and, by that, I do not begrudge anyone a church affilitation, discussion among friends, group affilitation, anything would still be classified by me as "keeping to themeselves"). I do not randomly go into churches and tell them they are worshipping a fairy tale. I do not stop people on the street that have crucifixes around their neck and tell them they are basically worshiping tinker bell. I don't. Honestly, I very rarely talk to anybody about religion unless I know them very well.

But here on DU, I think things are different. People put things out there for people to talk about. People make public statements about their beliefs or lack thereof. Now if you can't handle that, DU was nice enough to create specific forums for you to go and be "safe." I appreciate that. I enjoy the sanctity of the Atheists/Agnostics forum A LOT. They are people that think like me and I really enjoy reading what they have to say especially when my day has sucked. I'm sure theists have similar views about their "special places."

So, why the hell is Goblinmonger babbling so much, you may ask. Why do I need to shut up about my view of the world in Religion/Theology? I honestly think that the Christian god is no different than Zeus or any other "god" before him. He is a fairy tale invented to keep the masses in line. There is not proof that he exists, and, absent that, he does not. That is my view of the world. But if I make comments like that, to people THAT HAVE FREELY POSTED THEIR VIEW OF THE WORLD HERE IN R/T, I am persecuting. Or bashing. Or disrespecting. Now if I went into a religions "special place" on DU and did that, I would be an ass. I wholly agree. Just like anyone else would be if they did that in A/A. But I'm not in that special place and I am responding to someone else.

So, I ask again, "Why do I need to sit in the back of the bus and keep my mouth shut and pretend that I am happy to even be invited on the bus instead of being burned at the stake like I would have been several hundred years ago?"

[MADem]

1. Who is bringing torches and pitchforks???

I dunno about anyone else, but I think issues of faith, or lack thereof, are PERSONAL. Kind of like fashion choices--you can wear that ugly sweater, and I can look at it and think, wow, that's an ugly sweater, but so long as I am not forced to wear it, I could care less.

If you are secure in your own belief system or world view, why care what others say? To hell with them! By the same token, there's never a need to be rude--some people like their ugly sweaters. You can state your case (that sweater doesn't suit me) without insulting the wearer.

[Goblinmonger]

2. But if they are PERSONAL

and you are going to be offended by someone talking about your beliefs in any other way than "Oooooh yes, I know what you mean, how fascinating" than why post them in a public forum and get pissed when someone calls bullshit in the discussion? Go to the "special places" I talk about and have the discussion there. I will leave you alone and respect you for that.


To go with your figurative language: Obviously the sweater doesn't suit me. I am not a sweater wearer (though some tell me that my lack of wearing sweaters actually does make me a sweater wearer in some twisted way). I declare my lack of wearing sweaters proudly. When someone tells me sweaters are cool in the "Fashion" forum, I tend to tell them that the sweaters are not cool and explain why I think so. But I don't talk about "ugly sweaters" in the "I Like Sweaters" Forum. That would be rude. People go there because they want to talk to other people who like sweaters and they should be afforded that. But not in the "Fashion" forum. Have I beat your analogy to death yet? :P

[sam sarrha]

5. so what do you do with the head choppers that dont stay in their forum.??

and the ones that want to teach Penticostal Extremism and the book of Revelation in Kindergarden.??

[Goblinmonger]

8. Well, two things

1. I am only talking about here on DU. Fighting those wing nuts in the real world is a whole different thread.
2. I think that R/T is a forum for open game. There are specific forums for the major "religioins/world views" here on DU. If you don't want to be part of the open, free, and often stark discussion of world views (even *gasp* your own--not inded for you, sam sarrha, but for other who know who theyy are) then don't come into R/T and just stay in your special place on DU where that won't happen.

[sam sarrha]

10. it was a retorical question... sorry

[Goblinmonger]

11. I knew it was rhetorical

but there were issues in there that had nothing to do with you that I wanted to preempt. It is sad that I know what certain people are going to respond to a thread before it happens, but, trust me, I'm right about what is coming.

[unschooler]

26. By "head choppers,"

are you referring to a particular group or to medieval religious wars or what?

[MADem]

15. If someone gets pissed when you are NOT being rude, that is THEIR problem

Agreement and appeasement are not what I am advocating. Being civil is what I favor. And if the person gets all offended, that is their personal issue and problem, and suggests that their beliefs are not as well grounded as they like to claim. In these cases, when someone gets all huffy or thin-skinned, just tell them that you disagree with them, their arguments do not move you, you do not share their views, and have a nice life.

Of course, you can always grab their ugly-ass sweater and strangle them with it, but that's not very nice, either!!!

[sam sarrha]

3. recomended.. very good point.. i feel the same way here in the South

i got fired for being a Buddhist, i got run out of a job by the blacks cause they hate me for my skin color, i was threatened with a knife, had deadly objects thrown at me, i was hit with boards, once in the nets, i was put in dangerious work situtions deliberately, when i finally complained i was fired. i have worked here in 12 hour a day jobs that had no breaks and a 1/2 hr lunch.

and you have to keep your mouth shut or you are in trouble, and it is getting worse all the time.

[Goblinmonger]

6. And I would think you would agree that

if you post about Buddhism here in R/T, then it is fair game to say Buddhism is bad. I got nothing in that area, but still, someone might. Though going into the Buddhism forum and doing that would be rude and completely in poor taste.

[sam sarrha]

12. my point was that ones perspective is a learned and evolving illusion

so to speak..

[Strong Atheist]

4. That's the way I look at it, also. The GROUPS are

private spaces for those who are alike to meet; R&T is supposed to be the free-for-all zone where differences are hashed out/discussed by all.

[nemo137]

24. the groups are also places for those who have money

not that I'm asking for a sanitized R/T forum, but I can't just go to the liberal Christians group and ask a question about transubstatiation.

[unschooler]

27. My sympathies. However, if you ask about transubstantiation here, you

are likely to get a wider variety of responses than you will in Liberal Christians.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

7. Funny you should use that analogy

(back of the bus) because sometimes that's how I feel as a Christian, here on DU! I guess it is all in your perspective.

But, as a Christian I have no problem with what you have said because of one small phrase "I honestly think..."

You are stating your opinion and everyone is entitled to a considered opinion. Where it gets me down is when someone makes fun of my faith, referring to the tooth fairy, etc., and writes as if somehow he/she KNOWS ALL.

Because bottom line, as you I am sure agree, nobody knows. We might choose one world view or another, but nobody knows for sure. That's the grand mystery of life. We are all equally CLUELESS.

I've chosen one way to believe within my cluelessness, and it is based on my upbringing, my culture, my personal experiences that have convinced me. You've chosen another.

Fine by me. I won't make fun of you and you don't make fun of me. It works. I guess it is called respect.

[Goblinmonger]

9. Well

I think your god is much like the tooth fairy. That's how I see the world. Of course it is just what I "think" but certainly I think I am right or I wouldn't believe it.

But if I say my views in response to a Christian, I am being rude. Yet they don't consider themselves rude for stating their views in the first place knowing that there are atheists out there. Now I don't think stating your views in R/T makes you rude, don't get me wrong, but I equally don't think me calling bullshit in R/T makes me rude, either. Doing it is the specific forum would be.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

13. I think it is up to each of us

in this sort of forum, to always make certain we come across as discussing an idea as our opinion, our beliefs. Being absolutely sure one is correct is probably not a good sign mental-health wise.

You can "think" my God is like the tooth fairy all you want. And I'll "think" you are unfortunately mistaken. And we can keep talking because of respect.

[Goblinmonger]

14. Though you seem awfully close to the old canard

that atheism is just another belief system in god. I don't "believe" there is no god. Absent any proof, there is no god. I know that. I see nothing upon inspection that distinguishes your god from Zeus, the tooth fairy, Santa (ironically VERY MUCH patterned after the xian god, yet all xians know Santa isn't real), Tinkerbell, elves, unicorns, etc.

If that is disrespectful, I am back to why I need to keep my mouth shut. You can think I am wrong all you want. You can tell me why you think I am wrong. I am fine with that.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

16. No, I don't think atheism is another belief system in God.

It is obviously the opposite. What I do believe, and have said on threads before, is that by virtue of being human we all share some extraordinary things: intrigue in mystery, appreciation of beauty, love, yada, yada. So I personally don't see atheists as some sort of sub-human group. We're all humans and a belief in something we can't see just doesn't take precedence over, for example, the fact that we all love. I mean how cool is THAT?

I think we are getting in over my head when talking about the difference between belief and non-belief..sounds a lot like philosophy, which isn't my strong suit. Do I know? Well, I have had personal experiences that have convinced me, so yes, I "know" just as much as you "know." I guess. But I know there IS no knowing yet. So I won't get the size 12's in a wad over semantics.

Should you keep your mouth shut? On a forum? Hell no. Just couch your expressions of your beliefs with good manners. Seems to me you do.

[trotsky]

17. "Nobody knows for sure"

The problem is that far too many people take "Nobody knows for sure" and think it means "My guess is just as good as yours."

Making the UFO Cultists, the KKK, Falwell and Robertson, Muslim Extremists, Christian anti-abortion murderers, and Branch Davidians, and you all equally "right."

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. Well, in a sense

they are. Now "right" is a loaded word. Maybe "correct." Abstractly, their guess is as good as mine.

But "right" to me also implies morally right, and they sure as heck aren't all morally right.

And I'm going to be really shook up if God is wearing a KKK robe.

In a nutshell, we are discussing the whole essence of human discord. We all think we are right. Or correct.

[Goblinmonger]

19. Hate to jump into Trostky's thread

but he's just a heathen :P

How do you make the decision that the KKK is wrong. You are making judgments. And once we start making judgments, we need to be able to back those up. Pretty hard to do when you, at least on face, take the stance that "we are all correct." That is why I question beliefs. That is why I looked for a difference between "god" and zeus. Didn't find one. Not between god and unicorns either.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

20. Well, answer me this, then

just how DOES ONE monger goblins?

LOL

[Goblinmonger]

21. Actually

my name comes from the actual mongering of goblins, so to speak. I used to play Magic: the Gathering quite a bit (still have my cards though) and really like the goblin creatures. I collected goblin cards. A lot of them. I even required a goblin card in every trade I made. Hence the goblin mongering. Plus monger is just such a sweet word.

[nemo137]

25. Hate to jump into TG's thread (she's just an Episcopal...whoops)

But M:TG was pretty cool back in the day, and everyone loves the word "monger."

[unschooler]

28. I've been wondering about that myself!

:toast:

[varkam]

22. Shutting down

I've been thinking a lot about the thread I started in R/T last week. I originally posted it because what I viewed R/T to be was a forum for *all* theological views to be discussed. My earnest intent was to have an honest conversation regarding the ethics of J-C theology. I have a view, albeit controversial, that I thought would get people engaged in said discussion. In all my posts I've tried to be as respectful as possible in defending my views and advancing my argument. I've not once called someone stupid or foolish for believing what they believe.

But I think something very interesting happens. I think people (myself included) have a tendency to "shut down" when their views are challenged. In other words, I think some people tend to compose their response before they've read the argument, so to speak - which kind of rules out the possibility of an open and honest discussion. IMHO it's a form of stereotyping, that I've recognized in my own life. For example, if someone introduces themselves to me as a Christian, then I know I have a tendency to "fill in the blanks" - and everything they say thereafter is colored. Likewise, it seems to me that some individuals, knowing I am an atheist, will disregard anything I have to say that challenges a theistic paradigm (or, more specifically, their own theistic paradigm). So how is my position just not the flip-side of the coin? I recognize that tendency in myself, and try to counter-act it. Not to say I'm always 100% successful, but I think it's necessary on both sides in order to have an honest discussion.

To be crystal clear, I'm not just saying that members of a theistic viewpoint are blocking honest discussions - because I do it too (nothing pisses me off more than people throwing scripture at me).

In my opinion, there is probably such a big backlash against atheistic viewpoints in the R/T forum because, like it or not, we are the minority viewpoint (and that's not just in the R/T forums, that's country-wide). Just my .02.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

23. Okay, here's my thoughts on your

post..very well thought out.

I like atheists. Great opportunity to evangelize!

hahaha just kidding. I don't think I have evangelized in my life, although I like to think I model my life in such a way that I honor the cross I wear around my neck.

But I do like atheists because they are thinkers. I've known many, all the way from agnostics who almost believe all the way up (or down, depending on your perspective) to folks who only trust what they can see in front of them. And I'll put my cranky reputation on the line by stating that another reason I like atheists is I find them to often be very vulnerable people. They have come to a difficult decision, one that is by far a minortiy position. And if religion is a crutch and opiate, they have thrown away their crutches and gone cold turkey.