A poll to be taken by the religious, only, please!

[Strong Atheist]

Poll question: A poll to be taken by the religious, only, please!

In various places and ways, the admins (bless their optimistic hearts!) have posted the hope that we can all play nice, get along and come to understandings here and elsewhere. Depending on my mood , I usually try to be circumspect, and have posted a number of conciliatory threads (on Christmas, for instance - look it up!). I have also fallen down on that noble goal occasionally. In the spirit of understanding our differences, I have a poll question.

Now, we can argue about why some atheists come across as hostile, and there may be several reasons. I am not getting into that here. Similarly, I am not getting into what the right-wingers on other boards completely think.

What I WOULD like for this poll, is an honest answer (can be anonymous if you ONLY take the poll). While the perceived hostility of some atheists may be a correct perception, I think that unlike the fundies off of this board, many of the religious ON this board have views that are similar but not expressed as much, maybe due to politeness, to wit: many religious people here complain that atheists make unflattering comparisons (to non-existent things) and comments about the religious(their logical reasoning, etc.). I think that as part of their beliefs, religious people may have similar (though here frequently unvoiced) ideas about atheists. If I am wrong about that, I don't mind if you tell me so...

So, in the spirit of open communication which I believe the admins want, on to the poll! If you want other options and get here quickly, I can edit to add three more!

[Redbear]

1. Christians who criticize athiests are off track.

Christianity is about love, period.

Christ listed no exceptions as to whom we are to love.

Why that simple message has become so polluted is hard to understand, but it is an unfortunate fact.

[bluemarkers]

2. that applies to almost everything....

I think it diminishes a point if there is attack on the person. Which may explain why I find people like Rush and O'Reilly so offensive - obviously they feel like their POV is too weak to support with facts. I have tried very hard not to lump all Republicans together, but I have to say that the people who represent the GOP in the media tend to be bullies. (Talking over others, raising their voices, mocking, and calling names or in the case of Ann C, making death threats) In the same vein, the fundie branch of Christianity is guilty of this also. (gasp!) I can understand why the subject of these verbal attack feel like they should respond in a like minded way. Especially when it happens time and time and time again.

I guess it boils down to the lowest common demoninator.... It makes me wonder about everyday day people who support these attacker. And we all know there are plenty of common men and women who believe every thing said by Rush or Faux....

I know everything I've just said is not new.

As to people with different religious views, I don't care what religion you are. Faith is more important. If you are an atheist, well that is OK too. I do have a hard time understanding that view, but I respect it. And I will not try to convert anyone to my way to thinking or believing. Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of many Christians are opposite to Christ's teaching. Same thing with Islam and the Prophet. So I completely understand anyone not accepting a faith, and seeking something more spiritual outside these.

I'm a Christian, but I also think we live in a county with freedom of religion. The road we seem to be traveling down is kinda scary I think.

[Strong Atheist]

4. Thanks, well stated! Welcome to D.U.!

:toast:

[papau]

10. Well said :-)

:-)

[Coyote_Bandit]

3. I tell the Bible thumpers that come knocking

on my door that I respect their beliefs enough to neither ridicule them, try to change them or require that they be justified to my satisfaction - and that I expect the same courtesy from them in return. In other words, live and let live.

I would hope the same would be true here. Atheism too is a belief system. Fundamentally all belief systems and religions must make assumptions that can be neither empirically proven or disproven.


Edit to add: This cuts both ways. Athiests ought not ridicule faith that they believe unfounded - or require its justification. Athiests likewise are deserving of respect. Most of the athiests and agnostics I have personally known are widely read and have endeavored to have an empirical consistency in their belief system. Nothing wrong with that. It is an effort deserving of respect. There are some fundie Christians that I wish would make half the effort in consistently interpreting Scripture.

[Strong Atheist]

5. Thanks. Well stated. nt.

[azureblue]

6. define "religious"

You confuse spirituality with religion. Religion is the politics of spirituality, so please clarify.

[Strong Atheist]

8. Dude/dudette! You are putting waaaayyy to much importance

on the definition, here! Take the poll if you ain't an atheist! Welcome to D.U., by the by!:toast:

[CurtEastPoint]

7. Who is HUGH?

[Strong Atheist]

9. It is a joke here on D.U.! I don't have the link, so someone else

must explain it. Welcome to D.U., by the way! :toast:

[papau]

11. Poor spelling is thought a characteristic of the RW-and hugh rather than huge

Poor spelling is thought a characteristic of the RW-and hugh rather than huge is found in many many posts over at FreeRepublic.com

For a while Moran (with photo) and Hugh were the symbols of the GOP over here on DU.

:-)

Of course poor typing skill is given a pass - sometimes!

:toast:

[Ready4Change]

12. Other.

I think the large majority of people are willing to live and let live. To discuss their varied points of view without getting personal about it.

But, on each side, in all directions, there are a few who feel they have a point that must be made. And again, on each and every side, are a few who, for whatever reason, have skins so thin that they see that point making as an attack, rather than a comment.

And then, again on every side, there are those who DO actually attack.

The above are not boxes in which people fit, but are instead points picked out on a scale of tolerance. There are infinite degrees between each. People who dont care about one issue, but are vehement about others.

My respect for peoples opinions, and the belief systems they support, varies in inverse proportion to their point on that scale.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. Who am I to judge

what is right or wrong for a particular individual? I cannot look into another's heart. If being an atheist leaves an individual with a sense of peace and wellbeing in his heart, then perhaps he has found his place.

The people who get me down (and this is across the spectrum from belief to not believing) are people who are rude and disrespectful of another's belief system. Why? Because if someone is sincerely out to change another's belief, rudeness and ridicule are not the tools to use. And if someone is not out to change another's belief, why be rude? It only reflects back on the rude person.

[okasha]

14. Atheists are on their own path

and I respect that. What I don't care for are the assertions, frequently worded in the most disrespectful terms, that non-atheists are deluded or stuck in the Middle Ages or somehow unwilling to deal with reality. It's particularly offensive to call someone's belief system a "fairy tale," or to refer to the founder of the faith as a fictional character (with, by the way, no evidence to back up that claim.) Now, no one has yet dissed my particular religion in those terms because doing so would probably be perceived as racist. (I'm a traditional Native American.) But it makes me uncomfortable--no, it offends me--that others are subjected to that kind of ridicule, especially Christians and Muslims.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. Arguments are one thing, insults are another

I can take arguments and challenges, but there is a SMALL subset of atheists on this board who seem to be unable to resist chiming in on every religious topic with blanket condemnations of all religions and who cannot dialogue with believers without degenerating into trite and childish insults about pink leprechauns and the "sky god" (Gore Vidal's phrase).

It's not persecution, but it makes me think that the posters are more interested in playing out personal issues and using DU believers as safe surrogates for the people who were responsible for their individual bad experiences with religion.

[supernova]

16. OK, I'll play

I think everyone has to come to certain conclusions about the universe on their own. If you think you're a theist (of whatever stripe) and you find that fulfills you and gives you a sense of peace, go with God. If you're atheist and again, that fills you with peace, I'm happy for you. One of my main objectives when talking to someone who is trying to clarify their thinking on this topic is always to help the other person see what they think they are reaching for, as best as I understand from what they're saying. Every person is a unique creation and if I can, I like to help them become that. Deciding to be spiritual or not is only one aspect of that goal.

I'm a very curious person. I'm always interesting in learning new ideas and facts, from all sources, theist and atheist. I read all kinds of things. I thing Great Truth™ can come from any source and it is my responsibility as a thinking human being to suss out what is true for me and what is not. If I find something True, IOW it works for me, it becomes part of my understanding and belief system. If it's not true for me, I don't get mad either at the idea itself or the person who passed it on to me. I simply don't pursue it any further. My objective when entering discussions is always for understanding. If it reaches the level of argument, I argue to be understood, but not to convert.

Personally, one of the things that left me feeling upset with the R&T forum, and which is why I rarely come here, is the distinct feeling that I was supposed to be an apologist for fundamentalists so that the more angry folks could work out their past hurt issues, kinda like therapy. A stand-in punching bag. Right away I was asked, sometimes obviously, sometimes the person didn't realize they're doing it, to speak from a rhetorical position that was foreign to me.

Ah couple of things here, right off the bat:

1) I'm not a fundamentalist. Hell, I'm not even conservative, theologically.
2) I don't know, nor have I ever known any fundamentalists. I do know several people I would classify as conservative, however. And yes, I've lived in the South most of my life. Go figure.

So, I can't speak for fundamentalists, or tell you how they think, or why they do things they do. They really are outside my religious and spiritual experience. Conservatives I do have some clue about, but fundies no.

I felt inadequate and unprepared to deal with that; I'll be honest. My counseling skills are not great (see the DU Loners Group) And no, I'm not naming names. That would betray a confidence and I won't do that. Also, it's against DU rules.

I used to get very upset at this; I've been at DU since spring 2002. But I thought more about it, and realized part of it might be (correct me if I'm wrong) that offline we just don't get a chance to discuss this stuff in any meaningful way, so we lack the language to do so courteously. I have noticed in several people I've met who now identify as atheist that they grew up very conservative Catholic, or protestant fundamentalist. So they appear to me to be as adamantly atheist in the present as they were once religiously zealous. An effort to restore some balance, maybe? In any event, my hope is always that they work it out to gain some measure of peace because these experiences obviously left them feeling very hurt and scarred. I will help if I can, but I can't be a punching bag. I'm not strong in that way. Sometimes I wish I were.

Again, these are things I have observed with trying to talk about religious subjects with some atheists here on DU. YMMV. Or my mileage may vary with you, whichever.

I always enjoy discussing ideas, including spiritual ones. It would help me greatly if, in the future, we could just say, "Well, from my POV........ " or "This is what I've expereinced.." I think that would get us out of a lot of unnecessarily hurtful situations.

We are all obviously liberals, active ones at that, otherwise we wouldn't be at DU. There's no good reason for us not to get along.

[Strong Atheist]

17. This all sounds reasonable.

:hi:

[TreasonousBastard]

18. Can we rate the questions...

on a scale of 1 to 5?

As is often pointed out here, "atheism" is not a simple concept, and "atheists" have as much variation in their beliefs, or nonbeliefs, as the religious do. Atheists of one sort or another add to the ranks of Ethical Culture societies, UU churches and Quaker meetings. Very likely there are many in other churches, too, as I hear some seminaries are not requiring a belief in God for ordination. And, there are those Buddhists, Trancendentalists, Spiritualists, and others who don't consider gods particularly important in the grand scheme of things. Are they atheists by anyone's definition?

As with the religious, some atheists do seem to be on the wrong path, but most have simply chosen a different path. Or not seen the need to follow any spritual path at all. In general, I have no problem with atheism or atheists, but do resent the few who insist on throwing it in my face with arguments and insults. It's impossible to "argue" or debate religion-- there can be no winner. Discussions and explanations do, however, often work. Ifr nothing else, they foster understanding and respect.

My problem with many atheists is the same problem I have with many of the religious-- those that insist that their way is the only way.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. "You are wrong, I am correct."

I feel that zealotry is the real problem in the matters of faith or not. The idea that one way of thinking is always the correct way, is, in of itself, wrong. The problem of dismissiveness is also an issue. To dismiss an atheist as having no morals is as arrogant and wrong-headed as dismissing a spiritual/religious person as being illogical or mentally deranged.

If you don't believe there is no higher power/s, it is no skin off my back. I don't even think, "well, they will have to answer for that belief when them pass on." Just as my spiritual beliefs should not be an issue with you. It should only matter when one interferes with the other. What I mean is if the other side tries to squelch the rights of the others to think and feel as they wish, as long as it doesn't harm others.

[beam me up scottie]

20. Atheists don't believe there is only one correct way to think.

We do, however, believe that the only correct form of government is a secular one.

If I am a zealot for believing religion and faith should have no influence in a democracy, then so be it.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. I didn't say that.

I also agree that only a secular government is the way to go.

The zealots, I speak of, are the ones that belittle spiritual and religious people as "child-like" and ignorant.

As I said, my beliefs do not harm you, as long as they do not interfere with your life. It should work in reverse. I am a firm believer in your rights end where my nose begins, and vise versa.

[JVS]

22. That's not entirely true. I know an atheist who is against secular govt..

because he wants the powerful intertwined civil and religious authorities to "keep the peons in line"

[f-bush]

23. Done

The latest congregation I have been involved with has taught me a lot about inter faith tolerance. I appreciate the other view points and also the rich heritage of other religions.

What I am turned off by is the narrow fundy nastiness that is so prevelant and being espoused by our administration in violation of our constitution.