Wingnuts admit to organizing to destroy mainline Christianity

[eridani]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/2/11/162723/722

Once upon a time, the member denominations of the National Council of Churches maintained a vigorous social witness. That's what such mainline Protestants as the Presbyterians, United Church of Christ, the Methodists, and the Episcopals called their stands for social justice including such things as civil rights for African Americans, equality for women -- including ordination, and opposition to the excesses of American foreign policy from Vietnam to El Salvador. While there was some conservative opposition to these advances over the course of the 20th century, including some schisms, the direction of mainline protestantism was clear.

Then, the strategic funders of the Right, such as Richard Mellon Scaife and several others, helped create an agency that would help to network, organize and inform internal opposition groups. That agency is still around and is called the Institute on Religion and Democracy

....Many in the mainline churches are waking up to the simple fact that they have been under attack for more than two decades by rightist interests set on neutralizing their effectiveness -- and that the IRD and its allies have had considerable success.

....IRD remains a well-funded and influential agency to this day. It's minions in the mainline churches are treated as credible spokespersons for conservative dissent by mainstream religion reporters.

A few years ago, the National Council of Churches, faced with budget problems, and political gridlock, almost shut down. It has managed to resurect itself and under the leadership of Rev. Bob Edgar, appears poised to be once again an influential body in American public life.

As the slumbering giant of mainstream protestantism begins once again to stir, and the IRD and it's rightwing backers scramble to sow division and discord, will anyone be there to help? Or will the voices of mainline Christianity once again be silenced?

[lvx35]

1. Yeah, this is one of their greatest scandals in my opinion.

A vile political plot to take over the churches and control them for political/government interests. I saw a film in college detailing how members of the Reagan administration orchestrated the coup to take over the southern baptist convention, and I was shocked by how planned it was. The state of the churches is not some matter of conservatives being more religious, its the product of a real take over, just as ruthless as either of the rigged elections we've seen.

[The Backlash Cometh]

3. And who is exactly behind the coup?

My guess, the same groups who have silenced the media.

I asked a question yesterday, whether there was more behind the religious assault on science than the obvious religious objections. When you consider that it's scientific studies which stop corporations from selling bad products to the public, you begin to realize why corporations would want to slow or shut down the science that regulates their industries.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2455099

[lvx35]

7. Wow good thought.

Its definitely worth considering. As I said in my response to the post below this, you can look at their agenda by looking at the differences between the churches they control and others. To you point, I would look at the stance of the Vatican toward science and compare it to the more fundamentalist (Republican controlled) approach. The Vatican of course states that it is not the role of the church to interfere with science, and that science enlightens the church, believing in the big bang and whatnot. The fundamentalists, well you know ;)
They both are conservative on things but there is a big difference in their agendas.

[izzie]

5. Oh maybe 30 years ago I recall reading this

That some churches were moving to have this country an all Christian country but their type of believers.That way of thinking usually gets more narrow in its thinking as it goes along. I recall laughing about it as How could that happen? So here we are and if you are not in the right type of church you seem to be even anti-Am. So much for laughing at how foolish it sounded. There also seems to be no reasoning with these people. They are right, period, just as Bush always is. Can not use reason with faith based beliefs that can not be proved I do not think. Also as they grow up they are not opened to any other thoughts but their way of thinking. Sounds like the Middle East zealots does it not?:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

[lvx35]

6. Yeah the dominionists and fundamentalist deserve a close look.

(Dominionists being the "Christians" who believe they should take over the government, a growing sect, republican controlled)
If you compare them to catholics, or any other mainstream church, you have a lot more totalism in these republican controlled churches. Catholics for instance do a lot of thinking about faith...Theology...where they question this and that, and you can see the administration coming down hard on them in various ways.
http://www.newkerala.com/news2.php?action=fullnews&id=5739
At least when they cross the line to liberal reasoning. Of course many catholics are quite conservative.

[mia]

2. Outing the campaign to destroy liberal faith

Thanks for the link. Very interesting read about a serious subject.

[xchrom]

4. k & r

detailing the history of how we got in our present condition is of the utmost importance.

from leo strauss to paul weyrich to the institute on religion and democracy.

we cannot truly turn this country left again until we know how we got here.

[Mnemosyne]

8. .

[ck4829]

9. K & R

[AnneD]

10. The Mainstream churches can't wake up fast enough....

This ia a serious threat both to the churches and to the word and works of Christ. I stayed out of any church period. For 30 years I refused to set foot in church because of the right wing spew that was coming from the pulpits. I have told many of my religious friends (that I felt I could be truthful with) that the conservative right was playing them like a Strativarius. Well, maybe it is soaking in. They have done to freedom of religon what they have done to freedom of the press. If they continue to go along with the Neocons, churches will continue to lose members...certaininly their best and brightest.

[saltpoint]

11. Not too surprising but very disspiriting. These fundies are something

like killer bees who invade and then dominate other, milder bees and then lie in ambush out in the backyard.

Fundamentalists suck doorknobs.

[kwassa]

12. I don't quite buy this thesis

Sounds like just another conspiracy theory to me.

As an Episcopalian, I know that my denomination has stepped up to the plate on social issues continously, and still does, most recently with the ordination of the first gay bishop.

The oldline Protestant denominations do, however, had a wide consituency in terms of political outlook. They are not uniform throughout, but cover a variety of political viewpoints. Generally, they are liberal, but do have conservative members as well.

The greater problem is that they have less political influence because they don't deliver voting blocks to certain political candidates the way they used to in the old days. Politicians know this, and spend less time courting the vote from specific mainline denominations.

The fundamentalists are so far right that they only have one political choice, so they do vote as a block. This gives their numbers greater power than their actual representation in the electorate.

[supernova]

14. I would have to agree with this

as a former Presbyterian. Presbyterian Church USA is all over the map in terms of the political orientation of its members. And my former church was split 50/50.

As a result, we often simply didn't discuss anything controversial. Which ultimately is why I left. It seemed to me that place existed outside of our lives, not directly connected to it. But I'm just very socially aware, so it probably works fine for someone who isn't concerned with the wider community or society.

The PResby USA denom does quite a bit of social justice work around the world that largely goes unnoticed by people who aren't presby. The last was a bruhaha they got into with the Israeli gov't. for sticking up for the palestinians.

But it is good to know that we Scaife et al, were pushing this thing all along. Not that I wasn't aware ofit, but that it's good to have it documented that they admit it. I think left to their own devices, without a figurhead whipping them up to frothing mout mode, most fundies would simply live their lives and not wish to dominate others. They know they aren't supposed to be concerned with worldly matters like who runs the country, according to their own interpretations of the bible.

[JerseygirlCT]

18. Well, yes and no

Look at the funding behind the churches in the ECUSA threatening schism... you'll find Scaife and the like. They do have the ECUSA under attack -- using Gene Robinson as their weapon right now.

They successfully infiltrated 6 churches in CT, causing a rift with the bishop that is not yet healed. They are certainly a minority, and the majority has not given in yet. Yet.

Then look at the Anglican communion. They have been appeasing on the same issue. Desperate to make the anti-homosexual third-world bishops happy, they try to find a middle place. It's not succeeding, and the ECUSA is being pushed aside from the worldwide communion.

I see these fingers even in the Episcopal church. It worries me.

[kwassa]

23. Is there really Scaife funding in the conservative reaction?

Every diocese has conservative churches within it, some have conservative bishops. I have yet to see any evidence of external manipulation, though considerable internal manipulation.

I am not worried about staying in the Anglican communion, though when push comes to shove I don't think that the Archbishop of Canterbury will back the African bishops. The communion is a voluntary association and nothing more, and if we split, we split.

[JerseygirlCT]

26. Just a quick look for this:

(I'm sure there's much more out there)

http://www.cesld.org/aacfacts.html

Less than 25 years ago, disparate groups of conservative Christians formed the IRD to stop the liberal-leaning mainline churches from spreading their social and political message. The idea for the IRD came from David Jessup, a staunch anti-communist Methodist and union activist, who objected to U.S. churches sending aid to leftist regimes in Vietnam and Nicaragua, according to Diane Knippers, IRD president. From that time, the IRD attracted a few conservative donors with deep pockets, including the Scaife, Bradley, Olin and Coors foundations. Its biggest contributor is Howard Ahmanson, a Los Angeles area Episcopalian, heir to a savings and loan fortune who has previously proposed teaching creationism in public schools and replacing the American legal system with "biblical law."

In 1995, many people with close ties to the IRD formed the AAC. The Rt. Rev. James Stanton, Bishop of Dallas (Texas), has been a director of both the IRD and AAC. Mrs. Knippers, an Episcopalian at Truro Parish, Fairfax, Va., has served as treasurer of the AAC while heading up the IRD. The AAC also has shared office space with the IRD in Washington, DC.

Originally the IRD's tactics were to infiltrate the governing bodies of the mainline churches, many of which are democratically constructed, to internally change their direction. (ECUSA is governed by its tri-annual General Convention, not by its PB). But in recent years the focus shifted. After the founding of the AAC, allies were sought in more conservative parts of the Communion. The stories from Lambeth 1998 of wealthier ECUSA bishops entertaining African bishops, some with more than one wife, were widely reported. About four years ago, the AAC began funding INFEMIT, "paying stipends to university groups and religious educators in half a dozen African countries, as well as groups in Hong Kong, Indonesia, the Philippines and India," reported Kevin Jones in Every Voice News, August 2003. INFEMIT's funding between the year 2000 and 2001, according to Jones, editorial director of everyvoice.net, increased from US$ 500,000 to more than US$ 1 million. The AAC, and its IRD support structure, were seeking like-minded allies throughout the Communion.

[kwassa]

28. This is an eyeopener, actually.

I knew that the Dallas, Texas diocese was the most conservative in the country. I know that the Bishop of Pittsburgh Robert Duncan has been a major leader of the conservative dissenters, as well.

They can be secret, or they can be up front, but they just don't have the numbers, regardless of their financial support, which is our only saving grace.

[JerseygirlCT]

29. Yes, I'm pretty sure they don't, and won't

have the numbers to change the ECUSA. They're looking for attention, though. Rather the Phelps school of behavior... They seem to pick their spots, incite a ruckus, enjoy the press fuss and hope that makes their "cause" seem more substantial than it is.

In CT, there are 6 churches on the outs with the bishop. I don't think that even a huge majority of the parishioners in those churches would support breaking off. When the priest was finally removed from one parish, most of the parish stayed put and is doing well with the bishop's appointed interim. A small number broke off to form a parish in exile.

They won't win, but I don't think they think they will, either. They're looking for attention, I believe.

[kwassa]

32. I'm in the Washington DC diocese

This covers DC and southern Maryland.

We had only one case of a church trying to leave; they snuck in a new rector from Texas without the bishop's approval, and then tried to claim that the waiting period for the bishop's approval had expired. Acokeek, it made national news. The thing went to court, the rector got the boot, the diocese kept the church and the dissenters left, I guess.

There had been churches that refused to recognize women bishops like Jane Dixon in our diocese before. There are conservative churches that try to raise anti-gay prohibitions at the Diocesan Convention, but they are always shot down. My wife is currently serving on the Diocesan Council, by the way. Most of the seminarians I have known over the past ten years are gay or women or both.

No, the conservatives don't have the numbers nationally, and never will have them. There might be a schism, if so, they leave the property and assets behind.

[JerseygirlCT]

35. Yup, that's the other part of it

If they leave, they take nothing but themselves.

Which, I think, is why they'll try to stick around and continue to make as big a stink as they can. What's the old adage about no such thing as bad PR?

[Zhade]

31. You underestimate these people at your, and our, peril.

I think that was kind of the whole point of the OP.

And it points out that liberal Christians will have to confront these people, and continue to do so.

Assuming they will never succeed is just passive acceptance of their influence. Don't assume they'll stop on their own, because I think we can both agree that they won't.

[kwassa]

33. We don't underestimate, we keep a close eye, and we actively work against

them. The subject of Christian fundamentalism has everyone up in arms.

ECUSA is a democratic organization. No outside group, through conspiracy alone, can take it over. They have to have the votes, and the conservatives don't have them. Even the moderates resent the far right.

[trotsky]

34. The United States is a democratic organization.

Yet a supposedly "fringe" group seems to have taken it over.

It can happen.

[Zhade]

41. Thank you. That's exactly my point.

NT!

[JerseygirlCT]

36. I don't think anyone's being passive here at all

We're actively supporting an open and affirming agenda. That's pissing a few loud people off. We'll continue along our way, I'm certain.

That's active, not passive.

At least in the ECUSA, these ultra-conservatives are looking for a fight. That's not what we need to give them. (It's also most un-Episcopalian!) A big, noisy, public battle gives them more standing than they really have. It makes it seem we're battling an equal-sized group, and that the Episcopal church is splitting in half.

More like a fingernail is threatening to break off.

[mogster]

13. 'Society undoing'

It's all a part of destroying tradition.

On edit: typo (ONE sentence, and still typo)

[PATRICK]

15. The Catholics

have been suckered into joint ventures with sometimes radical fundies on abortion and an even older project, funding for private schools. For their pains there have been obvious incursions of politicized conservatives digging into the Church leadership structure on priestly formation, education, the abuse scandals, etc. Their natural antipathy to hard right Catholic counterparts, each considering the other heretical and damned does not seem to stop some oddfellow "Catholics" in the forefront of weird Intelligent Design projects that the Church itself would never support.

In other words a price is being paid for lazy big tent involvements in structures paying heed to progressive issues but rooted in institutional conservatism or fundamentalist involvement jarring with the mainstream establishment. And there will always be a few new dinosaur bishops thanks to the muddle headed control of the Vatican which has no concept of the damage being done here any more than their failings in Europe. That control means never allowing a progressive bishop, never a charismatic or over talented leader, never a nationalistic pride(because the most powerful nation in the Church is always lusting for a primacy of its own in Church affairs).

because of age old prejudice you really have a two fold tack. Radical conservative Catholics worming their way into influence(moreso than any lay liberal Catholics ever would dream of doing) outside the clergy and weakening the clergy, and the rabid types mentioned above who have a really vicious prejudice against Catholics and mainly want to convert them. The latter are no more friends in anything than the Getsapo and KGB were during Hitler's takeover of poland.

[CatholicEdHead]

25. Many Radical Conservative Catholics are former Fundies

Because they saw the Dogma allows them to go even more conservative than their Protstant churches. They eat up the olde-time religion pre-Vatican II. Many "Catholic" media are made up of this (Relevant Radio, Ave Maria Radio, EWTN, etc...) group.

They focus on the age-old weakness of focusing too much on dogmatic cermonies and to pull back from the outside world. The two main issues that are pushed for the outside world are of course the political abortion and gay marriage issues. Nothing else matters.

[Jade Fox]

16. These people are even beginning to alienate....

conservative and Republican Christians. They are going too far, and creating their own backlash.

Check these out:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/01/AR2006020102393.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/21/opinion/eddanforth.php

[eridani]

19. That backlash had better jolly well be ORGANIZED!! n/t

[Kolesar]

17. that DKos story was choppy and hard to follow ... eom

[Festivito]

22. Unfortunate. I'd like to pass this to a few people.

Very sensitive area, trying to convince ministers who spend their time trying to convince others that they MAY HAVE BEEN .... gasp ... wrong -- themselves.

Lotta guilt there.

[mia]

20. The Liberal Christian Network

looks like a great idea.

http://www.hostdiva.com/liberalchristians/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x50338

[Festivito]

21. #1 cause of Nazi rise from PBS: +++Church ministers.+++

A PBS documentary on the rise of Nazism had within it a teacher who tried the following:
People were asked to barter an order of who was most to least responsible for the rise of Nazis.
Given a card with items like(I'm not sure): Hitler, Hitler's parents, Ministers, Weimar Republic, etc.

The guy with the card "Ministers" successfully argued to remain the first cause, above that of Hitler himself, or anything, or anybody else.

This might be the number one cause of our current problems here in America.

[eridani]

24. Let's not forget the ministers lined up on the other side agaisnt them

Hitler used everybody, neopagans in the Thule Society included.

[PATRICK]

27. One success sounds very familiar

Namely that a plan to "euthanize" severely wounded soldiers(German) was denounced loudly from the pulpits and it was rolled back. That sounds much like the constrained criticism nowadays that always must plow through support for the troops and never get to the primary victims of a monstrous foreign policy. And there it stops.

[Zhade]

30. And yet, some Christians here think this is not their battle.

A foolish, foolish notion. It's your shared religion - we atheists don't have a god in this fight.

Do you think pretending these people aren't "real Christians" (thus implying, falsely, that Christians can't be bad) will stop them from coming after you once your refusal to deal with them allows them to hunt you down?

Hell, they might even come after you allegedly liberal Christians (you know who you are) FIRST.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. We can deal with them only within our own denominations

and in the Episcopal Church, we seem to be doing a good job of it. The conservatives are loud, but they're a minority, and an aging minority at that.

The Southern Baptists and Pentecostals already despise us, and if we try to tell them something, they'll be sure to do the opposite. We have ZERO influence with them. NONE. They consider us heretics and backsliders, and a couple of months ago, I even saw a fundie program on public access TV that was condemning my parish by name.

An Episcopalian telling a Southern Baptist what to do about social issues is sort of like the prime minister of Canada telling the Bushboy what to do about health care.

Telling the Canadians, "You're English-speaking North Americans, too. You should make the Americans adopt single-payer health care" would be absurd, because each country is a law unto itself (especially ours these days).

The same is true of the Protestant denominations. Unlike the Roman Catholics, we have no one authority figure who is recognized by all Protestant denominations.

What we can do as liberal Christians is argue against their incursions into government on a Constitutional basis, but we have no hope of persuading them to change their ways. They'll have to undergo a revolution from within, and it may already be happening, as indicated by the group of evangelicals that urged their churches to recognize the reality of global climate change.

(However, nobody in this country, religious or secular, is actually DOING much about global climate change. If we were serious about this, we'd all endeavor to drive as as little as possible and clamor for better mass transit, cycling infrastructure, and inter-city rail and bus service.)

[Zhade]

39. I agree with your last paragraph.

NT!

[kwassa]

38. What Christians here think it is not their battle?

It is everyone's battle.

Our ability to influence them is about the same.

[Zhade]

40. Of course I can't name names - that's against the rules.

NT!

[bobbieinok]

42. thorough discussion of goals, history, supporters, etc of IRD

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1496