The Fish symbol.

[RC]

The "Great Goddess" was portrayed elsewhere with pendulous breasts, accentuated buttocks and a conspicuous vaginal orifice, the upright "vesica piscis" which Christians later adopted and rotated 90-degrees to serve as their symbol.
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/fish.html





Support our troops or screw our troops. I see the yellow ribbon most often mounted on its side.

[MercutioATC]

1. Jesus fish = "conspicuous vaginal orifice"....

...love it!

:)

[beam me up scottie]

27. THAT'S PRICELESS!

Oh, if I didn't need my job so badly...

[LiberalVoice]

56. OMG i'm making that a bumpersticker!

Oh too bad jesus isn't here for that one. I'm sure he'd get a kick out of it. :crazy:

[benburch]

2. Have you ever noticed that "fish cars" drive like jerks?

Not stopping at stop signs? Not signaling lane changes? Refusing to allow you to change lanes to get to exit ramps?

[Nutmegger]

4. I have noticed that!

Some freaking jerkoff almost rammed into me on the highway. I had to chuckle when I seen a "Jesus Fish" on the back.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[txindy]

11. Oh, my, yes, I have noticed that. Usually on the back of Suburbans.

Also on other large SUVs or minivans. Just an observation.

:evilgrin:

[Proud_Democratt]

42. Pushiness and arrogance are the traits of these types!

And most of them are fat asses also!...including their dumpy , spoiled kids!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

3. Well, have the world is a phallic symbol

might as well find hoo-hoos in the other half. Equal opportunity and all.


However, the fish usually pointed towards a secret meeting.


And I know somebody is going to mention the whole 'gina thing and tuna fish, but I won't. Oh, I did. Sorry.

[Nikki Stone 1]

5. I like the fish that say "'n chips" inside

See, sometimes a fish is just a fish.

:)

[gulliver]

6. Um, no. It is an Ichtus.

http://www.cist.org/pv/cm/cl5101.htm

And you had to turn it on its side to make it match the SOT ribbon and the orifice thingy.

[johnaries]

7. Uh, you might want to check out this site

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_symb.htm

"We were asked by a visitor to our web site whether the orientation of the fish symbol was important. He was about to have it inlaid into a very expensive instrument. We surfed a few dozen web sites on the Internet and found dozens of Ichthus symbols:

13 facing upwards
11 facing to the left
10 facing to the right
None facing downwards. "
....

"The pre-Christian history of the fish symbol:
The fish symbol has been used for millennia worldwide as a religious symbol associated with the Pagan Great Mother Goddess. It is the outline of her vulva."

It appears the OP is correct.

[rodeodance]

8. did anyone tell the the religious RW this? How can we pass it their way?

[yardwork]

12. From the same site (thanks!)

"The symbol itself, the eating of fish on Friday and the association of the symbol with deity were all taken over by the early Church from Pagan sources. Only the sexual component was deleted."

And that's why I'm a Pagan! By all means, put back the sex.

[gulliver]

17. Yeah, that makes sense. Sure, Christians have been putting ...

... this vulva on their cars all this time to worship a Pagan Mother Goddess. Give me a break. I first heard about this in a conversation with a reverend on an airplane. He gave me the whole story about it being a picture symbol of a Greek acronym representing Jesus. In the end, it's a fish, but what it symbolizes depends on what you want it to symbolize. I highly doubt this was simply a symbol appropriated from the pagans. If we find a lowercase t was used to represent the uncircumcised penis of the Neanderthal "tree god" are we going to say that people who write t's are hearkening back to it.

It means what the displayer means it to mean.

[Goblinmonger]

20. Well, in that case, have a nice day

That's what I mean when I use that symbol.

BTW: that isn't me in the picture.

[trotsky]

25. I don't think anyone is saying that.

What is being said, is that Christians should be aware of the origins of the symbol and know the history of older religions as well as theirs.

This is no threat to your faith - after all, Christians have co-opted pretty much everything that they now consider "theirs" - Easter eggs & bunnies, holiday trees & decorations, Roman instruments of torture, etc. You don't believe that understanding the origins of those symbols detracts from your faith, do you?

'Tis no different with the fish.

[gulliver]

26. Actually, I wouldn't have one of those stupid fish ...

... on my car or anywhere else. You can't wear Christianity, and decorating your car with it is kind of pathetic. The fish with the "Darwin" is insulting and, therefore, worse than pathetic. It's the fools against the assholes. The people with the icthus are misguided and blind, but that doesn't mean they deserve to have their symbol distorted. Do that, and you make it impossible to communicate, impossible ever to understand others.

I'm defending these poor fish people, not because I am one of them (I'm seriously not) but because I insist that people have respect for other people's clear meanings. Though not a franchise Christian in any way, I still believe that these people with the fish are clearly saying "Jesus" not "vulva of pagan goddess." I think people who think otherwise are unhinged.

It's great fun to taunt these poor helpless saps who think they have to stick a fish or a cross on their car or clothing. But I think it is cruel and disingenuous.

[smirkymonkey]

49. The "Fish People" do understand the symbol to mean Jesus,

it's just that the symbol's ORIGINAL meaning, co-opted by the Christians, stemmed from the pagan/goddess worship cultures.

Kind of like the Swastika. The Nazi's considered it to be a symbol of the Third Reich and Aryan Supremacy or some such bullshit, however it was ORIGINALLY supposed to represent the Sun and stood for life, strength, prosperity, etc. - depending upon the culture that used it.

I think you are misunderstanding the OP by implying that the "Fish" now and always has symbolized the same thing. It's meaning has changed over time and has been adopted by different religions and cultures to represent whatever they say it does.

More on the origin of the symbol:

"In pagan beliefs, Ichthys was the offspring of the ancient Sea goddess Atargatis, and was known in various mythic systems as Tirgata, Aphrodite, Pelagia, or Delphine. The word also meant "womb" and "dolphin" in some tongues, and representations of this appeared in the depiction of mermaids. The fish is also a central element in other stories, including the Goddess of Ephesus, as well as the tale of the fish of the Nile that swallowed part of Osiris' body (the penis), and was also considered a symbol of the sexuality of Isis for she had sexual intercourse with Osiris after his death which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. So, in pagan beliefs, the fish is a symbol of birth and fertility.

In certain non-Christian beliefs the fish also has been identified with reincarnation and the life force. Sir James George Frazer noted in his work, "Adonis, Attis, Osiris: Studies in the History of Oriental Religion" (Part Four of his larger work, "The Golden Bough") that among one group in India, the fish was believed to house a deceased soul, and that as part of a fertility ritual specific fish is eaten in the belief that it will be reincarnated in a newborn child.

Before Christianity adopted the fish symbol, it was known by pagans as "the Great Mother", and "womb". Its link to fertility, birth, and the natural force of women was acknowledged also by the Celts, as well as pagan cultures throughout northern Europe." more.....

http://www.albatrus.org/english/pagan/symbols/origin_fish_symbol.htm

[Solon]

33. OK, so the offspring son of the ancient sea Goddess Atargatis, right? n/t

[bklyncowgirl]

9. I always thought the fish thing had to do with Jesus feeding ...

crowds of hungry poor people from a basket of fish and bread. You know, a miracle of genorosity.

Todays "Christians would insist that the hungry multitudes pull themselves up by thier own sandal straps and by their own damn fish--while making a large donation to the Messiah's "New Ministry Fund".

[Greyhound]

13. As usual it was the christians stealing another beliefs symbols to

coerce the followers. The whole thing is just a piece-work conglomeration (compilation) to concentrate power in the church.

[bklyncowgirl]

14. Well certainly, Christians borrowed from other religions.

Particularly in terms of symbolism. What eventually ended up as Christianity was miles away from anything Jesus ever said.

I love Jesus, I'm not too crazy about his fan club.

[Proud_Democratt]

34. Of course Christianity borrowed many things

http://tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html
Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He had 12 companions or disciples.
Mithra's followers were promised immortality.
He performed miracles.
As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
His resurrection was celebrated every year.
He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah."
His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
Mithra had his principal festival of what was later to become Easter.
His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."
"His annual sacrifice is the passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement or pledge of moral and physical regeneration."
Shmuel Golding is quoted as saying that 1 Cor. 10:4 is "identical words to those found in the Mithraic scriptures, except that the name Mithra is used instead of Christ."
The Catholic Encyclopedia is quoted as saying that Mithraic services were conduced by "fathers" and that the "chief of the fathers, a sort of pope, who always lived at Rome, was called 'Pater Patratus.'"

[Proud_Democratt]

35. Some more info...

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/mithraism.html#Paul

2. Paul and Mithraism
"St. Paul is attributed with the writing of 13 books in the Bible, 7 by himself and 6 by others in his name. He was born in Tarsus as "Saul" and adopted the Christian name of Paul after converting to what is now "Christianity". He was an early leader of the growing Christian churches around the Roman Empire, and the writings of St. Paul are the earliest existing Christian writings known to historians."
"Paul of Tarsus", by Vexen, 1999

He mixed the Hellenic Christ theme with the Messiah theme of Judaism, and the result was the theology around the sacrificial nature that the Christ of Christianity has.

"Paul mistook the Jewish "Messiah" to mean the Hellenistic "Christ". This happened before anything was written down; it happened during Paul's conversations with people as he was working through what had happened. A messiah is a person who is a great leader who leads your people to freedom. The title was taken by Jews from Persian culture. A christ is a god-king who dies as an offering to some divine being as a sacrifice in return for prosperity, especially agricultural prosperity. Both are anointed with oil as a mystical, sexual rite."

[okasha]

36. Nonsense

A messiah is a person who is a great leader who leads your people to freedom. The title was taken by Jews from Persian culture. A christ is a god-king who dies as an offering to some divine being as a sacrifice in return for prosperity, especially agricultural prosperity. Both are anointed with oil as a mystical, sexual rite."

This is linguistic blather. Both "Messiah" and "Christos" mean "anointed one;" the latter is merely the Greek translation of the former. Hebrew usage applies "Messiah" to all the kings of the line of David, even the piss-poor ones. It is never applied to a "god-king who dies as an offering" before Paul.

[Proud_Democratt]

41. What makes you sure enough to say something like this is

"nonsense"? This religion existed back in 1400 B.C.

[okasha]

43. Not sure what you mean by "this religion"

If you mean Zoroastrianism, yes, it goes back to about 1400-1500 BCE. If you mean Mithraism as it was current at the time of Jesus, no. Archaeological evidence shows that this form of Mithraism dates from about 200 BCE to around 300-400 CE. If you mean the religion of the "Hellenic Christos," then I have seen no evidence that any such religion existed at all.

I think--think, mind you--that the writer may be confusing the Greek terms "Christos" (anointed one) and "Soter," (saviour.) The latter was applied to a number of kings in the Classical world, some of whom held their status to be divine or semi-divine. Alexander, for example, was called "Soter," and he appears to have believed that he was Zeus' son, not Philip's. The title was also applied to at least one of the Egyptian Ptolemeys, who were customarily identified with Horus while living and with Osiris when dead.

You might want to check up on your "evidence" before you post it, given that much of what is claimed about Mithraism in your other post is unsubstantiated or flatly wrong. Just for starters, there are no "Mithraic scriptures" extant; textual evidence is largely inscriptional.

[Proud_Democratt]

44. I see you've researched this...in depth and since you were

civil about it...I thank you.

[okasha]

45. Most welcome.

I think it's fairly clear that Christianity borrowed from a number of pagan faiths, including the birth of Jesus at the Winter Solstice festival and the subsequent cult of the Madonna. I also think some of the embellishments in the Gospel stories may come not from pagan mythologies but from the biography of Alexander--e. g., the debate of the 12-year old Jesus with the scholars in the Temple sounds a whole lot like the encounter between the young Alexander and the Persian envoys.

What many modern readers lose sight of is that these embellishments were not seen as dishonest or unethical by the authors or by early audiences. Our modern idea of proper historical narrative, with documentation, dates only from about the end of the eighteenth century and remained tenuous for several decades after that. While it's not at all useful, from an historical perspective, to accept every word in either the Gospels or the Bible as a whole as historical fact, neither is it terribly useful to dismiss it all out of hand as a fabrication.

[Proud_Democratt]

48. Found something that may be interesting..

http://www.hiddenmeanings.com/nativity.htm

[okasha]

51. Lord Raglan's Hero Scale

LORD RAGLAN'S SCALE

Here's something I used to use in my Brit and World lit survey classes. It's a set of archetypes developed by Lord Raglan in his book The Hero, to describe the career of the epic/mythic/romantic hero. (I used it in conjuction with The Lion King, which drove one of my departmental colleagues batshit with the vulgarity of it all, but the students loved it.) It fits Jesus rather neatly, as it also does Oedipus, Moses, King Arthur, Percival and any number of others. Supposedly if a figure scores above 6 or 7, his historicity should be considered in doubt. Unfortunately for His Lordship, though, I get a score of 20 for Richard III--so much for the cut-off percentile.

Now the point here is not that this scale proves that Jesus was not an historical figure; it doesn't. What it does make plain is that the gospel writers followed a well-known archetypal model in telling the story of their hero-king, one that also fits, to varying degrees, such clearly mythical personages as Zeus, Krishna, and others.

1. The hero's mother is a royal virgin
2. His father is a king and
3. often a near relative of the mother, but
4. the circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. he is also reputed to be the son of a god
6. at birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or maternal
7. grandfather, to kill him, but
8. He is spirited away, and
9. Reared by foster-parents in a far country
10.We are told nothing of his childhood, but
11.On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
12.After a victory over the king and or giant, dragon, or wild beast
13.He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
14.becomes king
15.For a time he reigns uneventfully and
16.Prescribes laws but
17.later loses favor with the gods and or his people and
18.Is driven from from the throne and the city after which
19.He meets with a mysterious death
20.often at the top of a hill.
21.his children, if any, do not succeed him.
22.his body is not buried, but nevertheless
23.he has one or more holy sepulchres.

I prefer this sort of analysis to the star-cult theory, in no small part because the latter has to reach past obvious correlations to others that are much less likely, eg., equating the twelve apostles with the twelve signs of the Zodiac rather than the twelve tribes of Israel. There's also some real problems with the site's assertion that OT and NT were both written in Egypt around 300 BCE. We have OT texts that are clearly older than that, and there are historical details in the NT that would require some real precognitive ability to get into the narrative 350 years before they occurred.

[Proud_Democratt]

53. Thanks Teach...

I'll send an apple via Fedex.:)

[okasha]

55. Organic Fuji, please. :)

n/t

[hedgehog]

46. The link you gave is devoted to debunking the list you gave.

Of course Christians "borrowed" many things. Christians are still human and respond to the same symbolism as other humans; water, fire, Spring equinox = new life, etc. Does anyone make a big deal about Celts "borrowing" from the Romans because many of their festival dates coincide?

[Dogmudgeon]

19. What power?

Christianity had no political power for nearly 300 years, and did not embrace rule-by-terror for a couple hundred years more.

They used to hide in the catacombs; they were hunted and killed for sport by the Romans, who were, incidentally, Pagans.

Sure, it makes sense that they would choose a common symbol. The use of the fish symbol wasn't to flaunt non-existent power, but to inconspicuously signify who was a Christian.

--p!

[Goblinmonger]

22. Are you saying

that christianity did not "steal" from the major religions of the time to make it easier to coopt those people into the religion? Do you think Jesus was really born in December, right by the solstice celebration, Hanukah, et al (cause then the real miracle would be that there were lambs in december)? Do you really think that jesus was nailed to the cross and then rose on the first sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox? Or do you think that had something to do with pagan fertility rituals (hell, they didn't even bother to change the name--what do you think Easter means?)?

Come on, I know the xians were hunted early on. But they stole A LOT of shit from other religions/cultures in order to make the take over of those cultures/religions a little easier. Why is the Jesus fish so hard to imagine as coming from somewhere else?

[Dogmudgeon]

30. Jumping to conclusions?

Do you ... ?

Do you ... ?

Do you ... ?

It's an easy enough pitfall to trip through, and I've earned my sometime nickname of "Captain Trips" many times over.

:evilgrin:

Here's what I actually said:

"The use of the fish symbol (was) to inconspicuously signify who was a Christian."

Now to the point-by-point:

"Are you saying that christianity did not "steal" from the major religions of the time to make it easier to coopt those people into the religion?" Nope. My original post does not say that.

"Do you think Jesus was really born in December, right by the solstice celebration, Hanukah, et al (cause then the real miracle would be that there were lambs in december)?" My original post doesn't take issue with that either way.

"Do you really think that jesus was nailed to the cross and then rose on the first sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox?" Who knows? And is the timing really that important?

"Or do you think that had something to do with pagan fertility rituals (hell, they didn't even bother to change the name--what do you think Easter means?)?" It doesn't really matter to me, though it seems to matter to you as a point of pride.

"Why is the Jesus fish so hard to imagine as coming from somewhere else?" It isn't. Why is it so hard to imagine that symbols can acquire new meanings? Examples: The Swastika. Long hair. Short hair. Halloween. Rutherford's atom model.

Advocating a better understanding of how cultural transmission works DOES NOT imply support of a particular culture. If you think I'm ignorant of the ghoulish and thuggish side of the history of Christianity, you'd be badly mistaken; but I'm also well aware its good side, and the both sides of Paganism, Orientalism, Atheism, and similar schools of thought whether or not they can be called "religions". My concern is finding what value there may be in any of them, as well as that germ of evil that causes believers to surrender reason and follow madness -- and to destroy it if I can.

--p!

[seaglass]

31. Why must it be looked at as stealing? If people marry and

they incorporate traditions from both sides of their family into their own tradition, isn't that a good thing? Why is it different if people incorporate different traditions, symbols into their religious lives?

I think it's interesting where the symbol came from.

Yes, it would be nice if they could acknowledge that there are some traditions, symbols, religious ideas that came before them and were incorporated into their traditions. I'm sure many of them do acknowledge it.

[WinkyDink]

10. The symbol is astrological, Pisces. The predominant sign during Christ's

era. A Fisher of Men.
Preceding was Aries; hence, Old Testament ram sacrifices. The Golden Fleece. Going back further, Taurus; hence, the bull imagery of Mycenea. Mithras. The Golden Calf. Further, Gemini: Adam and Eve. Cain and Abel.
It is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.

[SpiralHawk]

15. Aquarius gives us the Wave form

in radio and TV and bluetooth and electricity, and in the subtle etheric realms as well. Aquarius is a dry, yang air sign - not a water sign as is often misunderstood. The material the Water Bearer is pouring out is ether, the fifth element -- the element in which the wireless world of today is emerging.

[Goblinmonger]

21. I love that song

from a kick-ass musical (one of the few musicals I can actually stomach).

[NV Whino]

16. It's mounted on its side

so you can read the fucking thing.

Personally I prefer the fish symbol that says "sushie" inside.

[Dogmudgeon]

18. Ban the Palmer Method!

It't the cursive capital letter "I".

They're teaching our children to make this perverted sign in school!

Accentuated buttockses! Conspicuous vaginal orifices!

It's pedophilia! Raw Sex in the classroom!

The horror!

:evilgrin:

--p!

[Goblinmonger]

23. Thanks

Now I will see a vagina when I am driving to work and see the number Jesus Fish and War Ribbons. It will make the drive that much nicer. Plus it will make those people wonder why I am laughing at them.

[Goblinmonger]

24. New magnet idea!!

This almost makes me want to have a bunch of little magnets made with "nice vagina" and an arrow on it that I can put on cars that have the fish and/or ribbon on them.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. The Jewish "version"

Gefilte fish is whitefish. It is a big staple food among NY Jews....personally, I think it is NASTY! But I like the magnet.

[beam me up scottie]

29. SNORT!

He's dead, Jim!

[supernova]

32. LOL!

:rofl: Clever! :D

[TallahasseeGrannie]

37. Oh, man...

we Christians steal everything! Now we went and stole the PAGAN'S PUSSIES! When will it end? When will it end?

T-Grannie

[beam me up scottie]

38. T. Grannie !!!

I'm SHOCKED !

:rofl:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

39. What's a little

vulva among friends?

[beam me up scottie]

40. snort!

I bet you'd be fun to drink with.
:evilgrin:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

47. Whoa....A little snark there?

From GRANNIE?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

:hi:

[hedgehog]

50. Hey - you should see what we get up to at the Easter vigil.

Blessing water by plunging a lit candle into it....


Seriously, is this supposed to be so shocking to Christians that we all immediately lose our faith? Or is it meant merely to be a mockery of someone else's beliefs?

[okasha]

52. Oh, I do hope

someone warns Senator Santorum to cover his innocent eyes at that point. Can't have candle on font goings-on, after all. Next think you know, someone'll be wanting to marry the Easter bunny. :D

[CarbonDate]

54. Support the Christian troops.

The rest of us can fuck off.