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Crunchy Frog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 03:10 AM Original message |
More wisdom from Sam Harris. This time in defense of torture. |
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greyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 04:13 AM Response to Original message |
1. It's ultimately an anti-war piece, emotionally. |
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saltpoint (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 04:19 AM Response to Reply #1 |
3. A very good point, but still. It's quite a difficult posture to accept |
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greyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 04:32 AM Response to Reply #3 |
4. Yes, immediately emotionally repugnant, yet |
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saltpoint (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 04:48 AM Response to Reply #4 |
5. Possibly. I do see the distinction, but stumble over the idea of |
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muriel_volestrangler (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 07:41 AM Response to Reply #4 |
6. I think you're giving Harris too much benefit of the doubt |
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greyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 10:56 PM Response to Reply #6 |
28. That's quite possible, however... |
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muriel_volestrangler (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 02:49 AM Response to Reply #28 |
34. No, I think Harris is perfectly willing to wage modern war |
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saltpoint (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 04:17 AM Response to Original message |
2. I try very hard not to be a one-issue voter. There is a smallness to it, |
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TallahasseeGrannie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 07:48 AM Response to Original message |
7. I've been reading some of his books from the library |
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Finder (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 10:25 AM Response to Reply #7 |
12. "He makes enormous leaps and expects the reader to follow." |
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TallahasseeGrannie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 11:31 AM Response to Reply #12 |
13. Well, now, comparing him to |
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Crunchy Frog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 01:23 PM Response to Reply #13 |
14. I hope you will post on your impressions of his books. |
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beam me up scottie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 08:30 AM Response to Original message |
8. Exactly who "regard(s) him as a hero and a font of wisdom and morality" ? |
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Crunchy Frog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 09:55 AM Response to Reply #8 |
9. I apologize for the hyperbole of last night's OP. |
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beam me up scottie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 10:09 AM Response to Reply #9 |
10. Thank you. |
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Crunchy Frog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 01:25 PM Response to Reply #10 |
15. Thank you. |
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beam me up scottie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 01:27 PM Response to Reply #15 |
16. I hope so too. |
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Finder (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 10:16 AM Response to Original message |
11. Nobody is saying he is morally superior... |
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varkam (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 04:24 PM Response to Original message |
17. Having read the book... |
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TallahasseeGrannie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 05:14 PM Response to Reply #17 |
18. I also think he has some valid points but |
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immoderate (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 02:27 PM Response to Reply #18 |
39. Tribal groups enforce behavior without religion. |
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ozone_man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 06:32 PM Response to Original message |
19. Here is the place to start. |
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okasha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 06:49 PM Response to Reply #19 |
20. And if the answer is no, |
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ozone_man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 08:12 PM Response to Reply #20 |
21. If the answer is no, |
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okasha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 09:35 PM Response to Reply #21 |
22. The commission of evil for a greater good |
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ozone_man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 10:03 PM Response to Reply #22 |
25. You haven't answered the "ticking bomb" case. |
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bluesbassman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 11:36 PM Response to Reply #25 |
29. Not so much an ethical choice, as it is of self defense. |
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beam me up scottie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 11:44 PM Response to Reply #29 |
31. You're becoming one of my favorite posters, bluesbassman. |
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trotsky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-05-06 07:19 AM Response to Reply #29 |
55. Very, very good writeup of the distinction. |
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okasha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 11:39 PM Response to Reply #25 |
30. See Buffy's post below |
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ozone_man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 12:02 PM Response to Reply #30 |
36. Start with several assumptions. |
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okasha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 03:45 PM Response to Reply #36 |
40. Okay, let's take your logic--and Harris'--and kick it up a notch |
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ozone_man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 07:17 PM Response to Reply #40 |
44. You still haven't answered. |
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okasha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 07:46 PM Response to Reply #44 |
48. You ducked the question. |
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ozone_man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 08:06 PM Response to Reply #48 |
50. One situation is more realistic. |
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okasha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 09:38 PM Response to Reply #50 |
52. See my post immediately preceding. |
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trotsky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-05-06 07:35 AM Response to Reply #52 |
56. The point being lost with your moral posturing |
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okasha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-05-06 06:45 PM Response to Reply #56 |
61. Blather. |
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trotsky (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-05-06 06:51 PM Response to Reply #61 |
62. WTF? |
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beam me up scottie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 12:40 AM Response to Reply #62 |
65. Yes, she has consistently refused to answer the question, hasn't she? |
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okasha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 07:36 AM Response to Reply #65 |
70. So sorry for your reading difficulties. |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 06:11 PM Response to Reply #70 |
76. Deleted message |
okasha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 06:22 PM Response to Reply #76 |
78. Uhmm, isn't there a rule or something about not using material from the |
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beam me up scottie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 06:52 PM Response to Reply #78 |
80. No. Why would reposting someone's words be against the rules? |
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muriel_volestrangler (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 06:17 PM Response to Reply #36 |
42. It's not hypothetical - Harris is advocating the torture of Khalid |
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ozone_man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 07:30 PM Response to Reply #42 |
45. He presents both hypothetical and actual examples. |
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SPKrazy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 06:19 PM Response to Reply #36 |
77. I Say Torture The Bastard |
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Random_Australian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 09:44 PM Response to Reply #19 |
24. Ack! You can set an arbitrary value to collapse the stats is all, but |
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Random_Australian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 09:37 PM Response to Original message |
23. Sam Harris' logic is flawed. |
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Finder (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 12:47 PM Response to Reply #23 |
38. Could you show us where the flaw is? n/t |
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Random_Australian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 07:46 PM Response to Reply #38 |
47. I can't remember where I put the original, but this is close. |
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NMMNG (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 10:31 PM Response to Original message |
26. While I agree with Harris on some things |
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greyl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 12:55 AM Response to Reply #26 |
32. His hypothetical “truth pill” works. |
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NMMNG (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 01:20 AM Response to Reply #32 |
33. Meh |
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struggle4progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-03-06 10:45 PM Response to Original message |
27. Well, everybody believes in something. And so Sam believes in torture. |
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bloom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 10:46 AM Response to Original message |
35. So he's making the same case as the neocons... |
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Finder (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 12:41 PM Response to Reply #35 |
37. You are missing the point--as usual. |
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beam me up scottie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 04:50 PM Response to Reply #37 |
41. With athiests like bloom, |
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bloom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 06:18 PM Response to Reply #37 |
43. Or maybe you just read it how you want it to read. |
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ozone_man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 07:42 PM Response to Original message |
46. How about the School of the Americas brand of torture? |
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okasha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 07:53 PM Response to Reply #46 |
49. Oh, good gods. |
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ozone_man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-04-06 08:29 PM Response to Reply #49 |
51. No, I see the SOA type of torture as different |
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Crunchy Frog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-05-06 12:27 AM Response to Reply #46 |
53. Okay, okay. I accept personal responsibility |
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okasha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-05-06 07:09 AM Response to Reply #53 |
54. Bingo. |
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ozone_man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-05-06 08:58 AM Response to Reply #53 |
57. Just trying to determine your sincerity |
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Crunchy Frog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-05-06 09:03 AM Response to Reply #57 |
58. Candidate bashing forum is here: |
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ozone_man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-05-06 09:14 AM Response to Reply #58 |
59. How do you respond to Sam's argument? |
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Crunchy Frog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-05-06 06:08 PM Response to Reply #59 |
60. My position on that question is |
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ozone_man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-05-06 08:33 PM Response to Reply #60 |
63. Good answer. |
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Crunchy Frog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-05-06 11:15 PM Response to Reply #63 |
64. Sam Harris is an appropriate subject for debate in this forum. |
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beam me up scottie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 01:09 AM Response to Reply #64 |
66. And accusing atheists of regarding Sam Harris as a hero and font of wisdom |
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Crunchy Frog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 01:42 AM Response to Reply #66 |
67. So I take it that this post of yours is now null and void? |
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beam me up scottie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 02:01 AM Response to Reply #67 |
68. Oh, I took your word for it at first. |
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Crunchy Frog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 02:04 AM Response to Reply #68 |
69. Okay, whatever. Have a nice day. |
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ozone_man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 08:17 AM Response to Reply #68 |
71. Thanks for adding some clarity. |
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Crunchy Frog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 10:32 AM Response to Reply #71 |
72. Well, just so you admit that's what you were doing. |
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ozone_man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 11:30 AM Response to Reply #72 |
73. I think it was fair. |
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Crunchy Frog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 03:50 PM Response to Reply #73 |
74. And what agenda might that be, pray tell. |
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ozone_man (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 08:20 PM Response to Reply #74 |
82. Why don't you tell me. |
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bloom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 06:52 PM Response to Reply #73 |
79. Some people are all about |
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beam me up scottie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 07:02 PM Response to Reply #79 |
81. People who constantly malign atheists on DU are pretty transparent. |
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Crunchy Frog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jun-07-06 08:03 AM Response to Reply #79 |
83. You're definitely right about that. |
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beam me up scottie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-06-06 05:58 PM Response to Reply #71 |
75. You're welcome. |
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