Do people disbelieve in Jesus because of what people do in His name today?

[Deja Q]

At what point do the man's teachings get separated from the man, myth or reality?

And to those who don't believe, do you think that the teachings of love and compassion are just as invalid?

It's all good and fun to mock the myth, but that implies the teachings of compassion and help are being mocked as well.

And from my perspective, and those of genuine Christians, there are some who needn't say a word; their actions prove how discompassionate and slimy they are. and some of them claim to be Christian too.

[rzemanfl]

1. Nah! It was the virgin birth story...n/t

[bullimiami]

2. i think the teachings and the myth got seperated almost immediately.

They founded a religion and started exploiting for power and greed.

I dont think jesus today would approve of much that most of these churches do in his name.

[PabloLego]

3. Actions are infinitely louder.

A philosophy or creed can't be judged by the worst examples of it's adherents.

[The Magistrate]

27. Of Course It Can, Sir

Are you suggesting it should only be judged by the best? We humans being what we are, the worser are sure to outnumber the better, and make a far heftier contribution to the general practice of anything....

"It is puzzling that the doctrine of Original Sin finds so little favor in the modern day, as it is perhaps the one item of Christian dogma susceptible of empirical proof."

[BeyondThePale]

4. Nope. I am just too old for fairy tales!

Pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by? No thanks. All we can know is here in the world. The rest is made up stories we tell ourselves to feel better or that others tell us to control us.

Shake off the shackles (and flame away!)

Cheers!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

61. I think part of what HynoToad was asking

is should we also treat with disdain the teachings of tolerance, mercy, and compassion? Those teachings can be followed without ascribing them to any God concept; indeed, they are close to what Buddhism teaches, I believe. And to me, at least, it is meaningful when one who doesn't believe there will be any reward whatsoever still thinks that it is worthwhile to try and forgive enemies, be tolerant of others, help the poor, and be peaceful, because they feel that these actions in and of themselves can lead to a better world, here and now.

[neoblues]

5. Not necessarily connected

"Do people disbelieve in Jesus because of what people do in His name today?"

No, but it doesn't help (and likely works against inspiring belief).


"At what point do the man's teachings get separated from the man, myth or reality?"

His teachings weren't unique and, in any case, require no connection to the man to be meaningful.

"And to those who don't believe, do you think that the teachings of love and compassion are just as invalid?"

Love and compassion aren't invalid--even the teachings attributed to Him on the subject. Believing in him merely gives those believers a defined "source" for the specific teachings on love and compassion included in the New Testament, it doesn't bear on the validity of those teachings (whether receieved elsewhere or not).

"It's all good and fun to mock the myth, but that implies the teachings of compassion and help are being mocked as well."

No, it doesn't imply that, and wouldn't--even if he, on the off-chance he existed, was the sole source of such beliefs about compassion and love.

"And from my perspective, and those of genuine Christians, there are some who needn't say a word; their actions prove how discompassionate and slimy they are--and some of them claim to be Christian too."

This calls for no comment. It's reasonable to assume that uncompassionate people and hypocrites aren't likely to have much of value to offer on the subject.

[Zhade]

29. Great points.

I neglected to mention that his purported teachings were not that original, very Buddhist in fact, and that's part of why I reject the supernatural nonsense as insulting to humanity.

People CAN come up with these ideals (and did) without being divine.

[The Blue Flower]

6. Deeply embarrassed to the point of shame

I became a Christian as an adult, 20 or so years ago, because it felt good and right to align myself with this rabbi's brilliant vision of peace, charity, and social justice. The utter perversion of the message into one supporting empire, murder, militarism, torture, enriching the wealthy at the expense of the poor, institutionalized oppression, sexism, etc. makes me feel like the apostle who denied Jesus three times: If this is Jesus, "I don't know the man."

The message is still valid. Not only valid, but the way through these dangerous times. "Do not return evil for evil." "Love one another." "Care for the oppressed, the widow, and the fatherless."

I strongly recommend Walter Wink's book "Engaging the Powers" to understand what's really going on with this whole issue right now. Also for his explanation of the real meaning of "turn the other cheek" and "go the extra mile."

[Bluerthanblue]

13. I couldn't

agree more-
What is being called "Christ"ianity, in my perspective is nothing of the sort- The vast majority of actions and words being justified by those who claim to be followers of 'Christ' are things that Christ -(known by his actions and the words which have survived 'mans' manipulation) would never approve of.

A better name for the 'religious' movement of today would be "Biblicans"- People who worship the words and rules laid down in a book, which is claimed to be 'infallible' yet, has its very origin in the hands of 'imperfect' humankind.-

Christ, turned much of the accepted religiosity on its head- and was willing to die to demonstrate His sincerity- He COULD have 'fought' back- by many of today's fundamentalist leaders perspectives He would not be 'righteous' if He didn't- but He took the concept of non-violence and "A new commandment" seriously-

Guess the best way to frame this would be, Does being an 'American' in todays world, represent the ideals of what our country was founded on? Those who claim the most 'patriotic' stance, are in many ways the most perverted from what was actually intended when this country was begun.-

peace,
blu

[Zhade]

30. To be accurate, nearly all Christians could be termed that.

Considering, if indeed Jesus existed, that his purported teachings were almost instantly (historically-speaking) overturned or thwarted by Paulian doctrine, most Christians would likely be far from his original example.

[struggle4progress]

16. Wink's Powers trilogy is excellent.

[RoseMead]

7. I'm not a Christian anymore

but I still believe in Jesus's teachings of love and compassion. Of course, other religions have teachings of love and compassion also, though some Christians today don't care to acknowledge that.

I don't necessarily disbelieve in the existance of Jesus; I consider it likely that he was a real person, just like Siddhartha Gautama was a real person. But I disbelieve the Jesus myth (virgin birth, resurrection) because I understand that that myth was also applied to others such as Mithras and Dionysis. If their myths are false, is the Jesus myth real? Or, if the Jesus myth is real, then why discount the other similar myths? Or am I really expected to believe that every other virgin birth/resurrection story is false but the one about Jesus is the real deal?

I don't think that mocking the myth necessarily implies that the teachings of love and compassion are being mocked. If anything, I think the mocking comes about sometimes *because* people value Jesus's actual teachings, and don't see them reflected in some of the most visible and vocal "Christians."

At what point do the man's teachings get separated from the man, myth or reality? At the point when those who claim to be followers of the man no longer follow the teachings, simple as that. I know there are a lot of good and sincere Christians out there, but sometimes it seems like the only ones I ever see or hear are the bad ones.

[oneold1-4u]

11. "mocking the myth "

How far would one get by creating a life of 2 people, in a garden, on a flat earth, for thousands of years? Would all believe that getting near the edge would be the pitfall into some unending hell?
When I went to church they didn't tell anyone that Jesus and all his immediate followers existed at that time. His profound exaltation by humanity didn't change anything for another 1400 years!

[msongs]

8. little children believing what adults told them, like robots....

small kids were told stories by their parents and church. small kids believed them because the adults would not lie to them.
small kids grow up to be adults who believe those stories still just because that is how it has always been. no critical thinking
or independent analysis required. then they pass those same myths on to their own children, perpetuating the culture.
and there is a book, so it must be true. and if people will not believe you, you can always kill them.

Msongs
www.msongs.com
batik & digital art
put your pics on shirts!

[Proud_Democratt]

12. They try to silence anyone

with a different story also.

[Bluerthanblue]

15. BUT ---- don't forget

Christ said something to the effect of unless you are willing to come to me as a child-
Meaning (in my view)

NOT a 'bible scholar'
NOT a 'perfectly rightous person'
NOT a 'person who knows exactly what 'God' loves or doesn't love'
NOT a 'person who already knows they are one of the 'chosen'
NOT a 'rich, arrogant, strict, powerhungry, despot'

you can't follow Him. After all, children are TAUGHT to hate, and to kill- It is those who are willing to drop all the shit of this world, the old ways of kill in response to killing, the 'I know what is right for EVERYONE- who aren't afraid to try on new or what may seem illogical, TRUSTING- HOPEFILLED- different perspectives like-
returning a slap with a hug, giving people who steal from you what they need, not kicking people when they are down, and saying "you lazy slob- you need to pull yourself up by your bootstraps"- but responding in the ways of PEACE, GENTLENESS, GENEROSITY, and KINDNESS- Children are born completely helpless- they have no 'pre-concieved' notions about their 'goodness' or 'badness' they trust that all will be ok- until they are conditioned to KNOW otherwise- (for some, that knowing comes very young)-

To become as innocent, and open, and hopefilled as we were as newborns, may be the entire concept that has been twisted into the notion of 'being born again'-

Trusting, against all odds- despite past history- starting new- with Christs beatatudes- there is something to be said for the hope that that would offer us- dontcha think?

Isn't that the real meaning of 'Faith'?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. Bravo

Children have a wisdom adults have lost, sometimes.

[CarbonDate]

56. Excuse me, but....

...I distinctly remember being mocked as a child for everything about me that made me stand out. When I was a young child, I was mocked for being short. When I hit puberty early, I was mocked for being tall. I was mocked because I had an uncommon name. I was mocked because I was friendly. I was mocked because I was quiet. I was mocked because I was chunky early on. I was mocked because I was skinny later on. I was mocked because I was smart. I was mocked when I didn't know the answer. I was mocked because I existed.

Don't tell me children are kind and loving. They're wicked and cruel and hate differences with a zeal that would put most Klansmen to shame.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

57. Now I never said that children

were saints. They can be little demons. It is our job to teach tolerance.

But they also have an inner wisdom that is difficult to describe. 34 years in the classroom and I see it all that time. I learn far more FROM children than they learn from me.

[Bluerthanblue]

59. Beautifully said TallahasseeGran-

and I so agree with you. It is in caring for children, and mothering my own, that I have learned lifes most important, and lasting lessons. I have not only learned, but begun to heal, and understand SO much of what I could never have understood otherwise. About myself, human behavour, and how what we teach, model, and encourage in the young effects the future of us all.

It is so refreshing to hear that after 34yrs teaching, you have not lost your love of learning, and your willingness to nurture-
I salute you!-

peace,
blu

[Bluerthanblue]

58. you were mocked, and

tormented by children who were TAUGHT to mock and torment-
Children LEARN WHAT THEY LIVE- A child that is treated with consistant, compassionate, reasonable, loving, age-apropriate, gentle, patient, kind nurturing will, respond "in-kind".
While we ALL have in-born 'tendencies'- some of us are naturally cheerful, or physically active, others may be more reserved and contemplative, however- mocking- cruelty- needing to dominate others are things that are fostered and nurtured in children- not qualities they are 'cursed with'.

My youngest son, killed a nest of mice in a tool box once- he was quite young- the mice frightened him, and he responded by killing them. I was furious at lack of remorse or realization that he had so blythly and brutally destroyed innocent babies- But, I was able to sit, and discuss with him on HIS level why what he did was not something he should do again. Explaining using the example of something so much bigger than him, being 'afraid' of him, and in fear destroying what frightened them impulsively- there was no shaming, no punishment- he was ignorant of the harm he had caused, but needed to know the magnitude of his actions. (on a very small scale, the power of life and death). We buried the babies. This same ADHD child, a few years later, held a petunia blossom so patiently and so still that he was able to get a humming bird to feed from it- AND the humming bird landed on a fence post nearby, where he ever so gently lifted his hand and was able to 'pet' the bird. It was a moment that was witnessed not only by me, but by several people who had come to the farmstand where we worked- He's a rough and tumble athletic young boy- with a gentleness and compassion that is REMARKABLE- in part, because I have been fortunate enough to have the time and opportunity to foster the qualities I believe to be essential for living.

If we surrender our fears, and are able to open ourselves up to 'trust' others-(no easy task- sometimes an impossible one) Especially when we have known great suffering and hurt at the hands of 'human'"kind"- we can begin to BECOME the people we would like to have as 'planet-mates' on this big blue ball floating out in space-

I'm sorry for your experiences- I too, had a childhood of pain and suffering- mostly at the hands of 'adults' (who were supposed to 'know' better- but who were simply wounded children in adult bodies) If we are fortunate, we can learn how to break the cycle- and make some of the suffering not 'for nothing'.

peace,
blu

[LiberalVoice]

69. The real meaning of faith...

"Faith is believing in something you know ain't true" - Samuel Clemens

[TallahasseeGrannie]

17. I believe

I'm intelligent and good at critical thinking.

My life experiences have been different than yours. I have evidence you don't have, that convinces me.

There is so much more than your simplification. But I guess it helps you to look at it that way.

And that's okay.

However, I have never had the urge to kill anyone who didn't believe as I do. Nor has anyone in my family, that I am aware of. Nor in my church. Nor in my community.

[Zhade]

32. I believe...

:yourock:

One day, you'll have to tell us about this evidence.

(Note the lack of sarcastic quotes! I'm serious.)

[1monster]

9. The actions of those who profess to be Christians certainly caused

me to be more open minded and to look at the history of Christianity and alternatives.

The more I learned, the less I believed that Jesus was "the only begotten son of God" and that he was another manifestation of God. We all are children of creation, whatever we perceive it to be.

There are other stories (I believe about 25) of sacrificed gods that predate Christianity. The most prominent one being the cult of Mithras.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/mithraism.html

And logic kicked in. The nearest star system to ours is Alpha Centauri. Alpha Centauri is 4.35 light-years from Earth. A light year is 5.87849981 x 10 to the 12th power miles or 5,878,499,810,000 miles. 4.35 light years is 25,571,474,173,500 miles.

Even if we could travel at 500,000 miles per hour, it would take us 51,142,948.347 hours or 2,130,956.181125 days or 5,838.263113 years to reach Alpha Centauri.

Quite an impressive distance, but just within the realm comprehension. But then one remembers that there are billions and billions of star systems beyond that. We are located at the far corner of the known universe. The distance across the universe is incomprehensible in any real way to the human mind.

Given all that, it strikes me as laughable that we as a species think we can comprehend the mind of whatever created all of that...

Jesus was probably a great human being who was wise beyond his time and contemporaries, certainly wise beyond our times and our contemporaries, but he was probably not the only one so blessed over the history of the planet. His teachings are well worth studying and following.

To quote Ghandi: I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. Yes, you're right. I'd say Christianity bears no resemblance to Christ.

If the Christ person existed, and was the way his quotes reflect and the handful of stories reflected in all gospels indicate, Christians have nothing to do with him. In some ways, Christians stand for the opposite of what Christ may have stood for. For example, with American right wing evangelicals, who practically worship wealth and the rich. According to gospels, Christ had little or no patience with the rich, did not listen to them or spend time with them, and Christ was an itinerant preacher with no home or wealth.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

19. You wrote:

"Christians have nothing to do with him."

Remember, not all Christians are right wing fundamentalists. Some of us really do try to follow His words.

[SPKrazy]

51. Absolutely

20% of Americans are fundamentalist Christians

20% is a lot

but it sure as hell isn't all of us! Not by a long shot!

[SPKrazy]

22. Put Down The Broad Brush Please

all Christians aren't fundies, and all fundies aren't Christians (as in fundie atheists, Muslims, etc.)

Fundamentalism is the enemy of logic, and truth in my opinion.

And I'd say that your post is so broad brushed about Christians that it borders on a fundamentalist view against Christians. The throwing the baby out with the bath water type.

[Zhade]

33. SPK, don't drag out that 'fundie atheist' crap.

I'm just starting to LIKE you, I'd hate to have a knock-down drag-out over the fact that such a term is an oxymoron (since there are no fundamental atheist beliefs, or indeed ANY belief that is universally shared by atheists).

:)

But I totally agree that the other poster Sherwin-Williams'd you guys.

[SPKrazy]

36. Well, Ok

I hope you wouldn't stop liking me just because you disagreed with me.

I should have just said limited and black and white thinking rather than fundamentalist, because I think Sarah's post:

If the Christ person existed, and was the way his quotes reflect and the handful of stories reflected in all gospels indicate, Christians have nothing to do with him. In some ways, Christians stand for the opposite of what Christ may have stood for. For example, with American right wing evangelicals, who practically worship wealth and the rich. According to gospels, Christ had little or no patience with the rich, did not listen to them or spend time with them, and Christ was an itinerant preacher with no home or wealth

Shows a very limited understanding of Christianity. It sounds like fundie Christians Sarah is talking about. That implies a very black and white view of Christianity as well.



(I had to figure out how to put the quote in a text box)

[Zhade]

38. I think b/w thinking is a good way to describe it.

And I was teasing you - I'd never dislike someone just for disagreeing with me.

Well, except for Nazis. And Republicans. Oh, wait, I'm repeating myself again.

:D

[SPKrazy]

39. Nazis, Republicans, Fascists, Hitler, *

yeah, pretty much all the same

[Zhade]

34. That's unfair to our liberal believer friends.

They're not like that.

[SPKrazy]

40. Amen!

I mean, right On!

:yourock:

[Zhade]

42. LOL, you can say "amen".

I promise not to be offended.

:hi:

[SPKrazy]

44. It's Not Really Characteristic Of Me To Say It

but thanks

Peace


:headbang:

[stopbush]

14. JC speaks words of love and compassion:

Of course, the Xtian apologists will say I'm taking these words out of context. Tell me how these words are not "the teachings of Christ."
Tell me how these words prove that "Xtianity has nothing to do with Christ's teachings.":

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me
10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake,
shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

FWIW - it's quite clear to me that the Jesus fable is a reworking of earlier god fables like Mithras and Apollo...unless you want to believe the early Xtian
apologists who opined that Satan created those gods ahead of the coming of the corporeal Jesus to confuse people once JC got here.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

20. If one were to really take all of Jesus' words

at face value (and I won't even go into the various translations and interpretations of the verses you have listed)...if you truly gave away all your belongings to the poor, took up the cross, you'd probably piss off a whole lot of folks, including your wives, children, etc.

Also remember in a few of these, JC was talking about being a disciple and following him. Literally one of the apostles. There was no Christian faith yet, so he wasn't garnering discipleship except in the most literal sense.

I have always felt that a number of these verses, particularly the ones where he says he did not come to bring peace but the sword, were extremely prophetic and insightful. As if he knew what was coming.

Regarding Mithras and Apollo, I am not a historian but I do know that in this world everything evolves. Nothing springs out of a vacuume. That includes religions.

[SPKrazy]

21. Couldn't Say Why People Disbelieve

Probably because they are only exposed to the fundamentalist view of Christianity, which in my opinion falls apart under critical thinking.

I think that I'm fortunate that I never had a fundamentalist upbringing. I found God in my own way as an adult and that evolved into Christianity (of a very liberal view, perhaps more pantheistic as another thread describes)

I think that I could never be a Christian if I had to believe in the fundamentalist ideas.

Of course, I know people that attend fundamentalist churches that don't take it all literally.

Even the literalists are only literal when it suits their needs.

[varkam]

23. Oh come on

Probably because they are only exposed to the fundamentalist view of Christianity, which in my opinion falls apart under critical thinking.

Do you really think that all us atheists don't believe in God because we were only exposed to the fundamentalist view of Christianity? That, since we found a couple of contradictions in the bible and figure that everyone takes it is the literal word of God that we just reject all of it? Surely you can't believe that.

The Baptist group I used to belong to was not fundamentalist. I believed in God right there with the best of them. I'd been saved and baptized. I'd been promised a spot in the kingdom of Heaven. I would pray every night before I went to sleep. But I knew a lot of people used the bible to justify their own hatreds and prejudices. It wasn't contradictions in the bible that bothered me and eventually caused me to disavow my faith, it was contradictions in the world around me that caused me to do it. The idea of a perfectly just, perfectly loving, all knowing, all powerful and ever present God is perfectly incompatible with the world in which we live. I won't go too much into detail for the reasons why I stopped simply having faith, but suffice it to say that it has taken me several years to get to where I am - and your simplistic generalization offends me.

Cheers.

[SPKrazy]

24. I Wasn't Saying All People Who Disbelieve

come from fundamentalist backgrounds

it was meant to be an example related to the OP


Come on!

We're on the same side!

On edit, I didn't explain myself well enough and I can see how it would be interpreted differently than what I meant it.

Blame it on sleepiness

[varkam]

25. I see

:toast:

[SPKrazy]

26. Cheers to Ya!

:toast:

[Zhade]

35. "Probably because they are only exposed to the fundamentalist view..."

Nope. I'm exposed to the liberal view every day, by people like yourself and most of the believers in R&T, and I still don't believe.

Same thing growing up.

[SPKrazy]

49. Yeah, I Jumped The Shark On That One

I really don't know why some people don't believe

probably because we are all unique individuals and we all have our own way of looking at things.

some may be turned off by fundamentalist views, but that doesn't go far enough to explain anything except that some are turned off by fundamentalist views (I am)

[Crunchy Frog]

53. The reason that I don't believe

is simply that I'm essentially an empiricist, and I just don't see any evidence that I find persuasive to believe in the fundamental tenets of Christianity; most particularly the notion that Jesus was an incarnation of God, that he was the product of a virgin birth, and that he rose from the dead. I find much to admire in Christianity (as well as much that I don't admire) but that's completely irrelevant to what I actually believe about it.

I don't believe in any other religions either. It's not because I have a negative opinion of them, it's because their tenets simply don't fit into my own worldview that's based in empiricism.

[Zhade]

28. I've never understood the need for the supernatural.

In this atheist's opinion, his purported teachings of love (not all of them were) are still valuable, in fact MORE valuable, if the supernatural silliness is dropped.

Why? Because, IMHO, the idea that only a divine Jesus could come up with those ideals and offer them to the world is insulting to humanity, and paints a picture of humans never being able to approach that kind of love.

I think that sells humankind short.

(And no, I don't lack belief in Jesus, or any gods, due to the use/misuse of teachings, but due to the lack of objective verifiable evidence for these beings.)

[SPKrazy]

31. Interesting As Well

I too think that humankind is sold short-edited to add how I think humankind is sold short- I think that when people say "I didn't do this, God did", is selling themselves short. Because even if God did it (I know unprovable) the person had to have had a hand in it and the willingness to let it happen. For instance, someone who claims that a higher power (supernatural) has helped them stop drinking and says: "I didn't do it, God did". Well they have had to make some effort. Not stopping at the liquor store. Not taking a drink. Maybe going to meetings or support group, or therapy. At the very least, they have done what it took to avoid putting the bottle/glass to their lips)



of course, humankind is responsible for some pretty unloving things over history (many done in the name of religion)

I don't know that I think of it as a "need" for a supernatural belief, for me it just is. Maybe there is some need there I'm unaware of. It is nice to think of a power greater than myself that is benevolent and loving.

I believe that no matter who a person is, there are powers greater than they are (not necessarily supernatural, for instance, society is a power greater than I am. Government is a power greater than me. Etc.)

[Zhade]

37. My parents are in recovery. 16 years sober, and I couldn't be prouder.

Can't tell you how many times I've been annoyed by someone saying "Praise Gawd" (yeah, I'm from the south), like they had nothing to do with it!

Especially since my mom's basically a pantheist, and I have NO idea WHAT my dad believes.

[SPKrazy]

41. Cool

I'm in for 21 years now

And while my recovery led me to the spiritual beliefs I have today

I can't stand to hear someone say "I had nothing to do with this" talking about their recovery.

[Zhade]

43. Woohoo!

:yourock:

Always happy to see successful recovery. :)

[SPKrazy]

45. Thanks

It's not anything I did




No, it is something I did, with a lot of help from other people, and I believe from some other power (whether that is the power of love, or something supernatural, or whether love is supernatural) I don't know.

But damn it, I'm taking some of the credit! My knuckles were plenty white during a lot of that time. (as in holding on for dear life)

[Zhade]

46. I'm just glad you held on.

You seem a good guy, and I've seen too many destroyed by the bottle. Runs in the family.

Thankfully, I can't stand alcohol's taste, so I drink rarely, which is good with my Native American genes!

[SPKrazy]

47. I Was Pretty Young When I Sobered Up

Turned 21 and started trying to quit. I was 23 when I took my last drink.

Glad I hung on too. I can't imagine my life with booze in it now. Then I couldn't imagine my life without it. (and other substances as well)

Today I have a family, a job, people look up to me (really scary), and spiritual beliefs that I never really had given much thought to before.

[Zhade]

48. Awesome!

I have a smile on my face reading that.

And people say we can't get along! HA!

[SPKrazy]

50. There Are Some That Probably Don't Want Us To Get Along

you know

divide and conquer!

[Crunchy Frog]

52. The contemporary actions of so called "Christians"

are absolutely immaterial to what I believe about Jesus. I believe that there was a historical Jesus, and I greatly admire the teachings that are attributed to him, but there is no way that I could possibly believe in the supernatural elements of his story, or believe in his divinity.

There are many Christians who I admire, but they do not incline me to believe things that my reason tells me are impossible.

I don't believe in mocking the myth, or those who believe in it. Firstly, I believe it's simply rude. Secondly, I don't have anything against myth as such, and think that it has its place and its value.

[NMMNG]

54. I don't know about that

I think there may have once been a man called Jesus who taught some very good ideas, though I don't believe he was "the son of God" or divine in any way. I very much like this Ghandi quote, though it only applies to some individuals:

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

The teachings of Jesus, overall, are not the problem. The people who use the teachings of Jesus to guide their own lives and find inner peace are not the problem either. It is those who call themselves Christians and utilize everything in the Bible except the teachings of Jesus to abuse, control and manipulate other people that are the problem.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

60. I agree. Christianity is the teachings of Paul, not the teachings of Jesus

In fact, if you examine the whole religion and the Bible, it looks like Paul left Jesus off on the side somewhere, while he (Paul) took over and began to write his own ideology for the new religion. The rest is history, and not a very nice one! That's why when I see the most church-going Christians voting for a president that is a liar, a criminal, and is destroying our nation, it does not surprise me one iota.

[CarbonDate]

55. Christ's teachings:

Obey the law, pay your taxes, and be nice to each other.

Not exactly earth-shattering stuff. And the myth stretches credulity. I disbelieve because I consider the religion itself to be silly and provably untrue.

[Vidar]

62. Paul, Augustine, Constantine et al. so perverted Christs message

that I'll go with Nietzsche's statement: "The last true Christian died on the cross."

[rasputin1952]

63. Most people today, as in the past, are either to0 busy or too lazy

to look into things on their own. So what do they, they allow others to foist upon them what they think they want to hear.

So we have a quandry...Is what the 'preacher' telling the masses the 'truth' or his perception of matters presented in the NT? Ina almost every case of these that "preach" through various aspects of the current media, they are destroying the basis of not just Christianity, but other religions as well.

One need not believe that Jesus was the Son of God to adhere to basic tenets of forgiveness, love, compassion, empathy or charity. These are noble aspects all humans should aspire to. Long before Buddha, there was Confucius and before him, many others came forth with lessons humanity should learn. Jesus got the most "press", at least until Mohamed came into the picture. The concepts of love/forgiveness are ancient, but rarely adhered to. It is far easier to beat one down rather than raise one up; todays "preachers" understand this, and use it to benefit themselves financially and egotistically.

Take James Dobson, his Focus on the Family is popular, and there are some good things he can be noted as stating; however, he falls back to the old "evil" aspect in his oratory, and this destroys his credibility with many who do not follow what he thinks the Scriptures say. Dobson is more than willing to see families stay together, (something most people want), but how to attain that plane is something entirely different than what he speaks of. Dobson is a misogynist, and believes that women are the originators of "sin", and they should not be allowed to discuss their views on many topics; this is just plain wrong, and really kind of stupid when one thinks about it. Jesus was about equality and justice, how can one attain those values if one is willing to shut the mouths of 51% of the worlds population?

The point is, for most of us, we seek answers through various means, one of which is the Bible. There are many good things in the Bible, but not everything is in the Bible. If one tries to walk the walk, it is far better than someone who simply scorns the walk. A humanitarian, whether Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Confucianist or any other religious designation, (or lack thereof), is a humanitarian, and should be seen as such w/o regard to labeling them with a 'religion'.

One can be an agnostic and aid others, one can be an atheist and aid others, one can be a Christian, Jew, Muslim or Buddhist and aid others...they do it because, quite simply, it is the right thing to do.
I think we sell these humanitarians short and we should be moe aware of them.

As for the hypocrites, they have chosen a path of greed and power basing. It is sad that people actually support those who are more than willing to cast everyone who doesn't think like they do into the gates of hell. They have Little claim to truth, and far less claim to be working in the name of Jesus, God or Mohamed, these people are the dregs of the religious world, they speak for profit, and when they amass fortunes, they do little to aid the afflicted. They work on fear, the fear that you would be cast into hell if you didn't adhere to their views, (which are almost always wrong). They are the lowest of the low, and are in the religion 'game' to make a fast buck.

How many Mother Theresa's are there out there that get essentially no recognition or funding, yet somehow make a difference in the lives of hungry, the sick and the falsely imprisoned? There are thousands. They work in obscurity, seeking no reward, asking only that a kindness be passed on to someone else in need. Whet ether they are Christians, jews, Muslims atheists or agnostics makes little difference, they work tirelessly simply because they know, to do less would ensure the deaths and poverty would escal;ate if someone were not doing something in their own little corner to alleviate suffering. They do these things...because it is the right thing to do.

[bluesbassman]

64. Nice post rasputin.

I especially liked this; "One can be an agnostic and aid others, one can be an atheist and aid others, one can be a Christian, Jew, Muslim or Buddhist and aid others...they do it because, quite simply, it is the right thing to do."

If only all the "religion" didn't get in the way.

[NMMNG]

65. Great post

And you make a point I often try to get across to people:

One can be an agnostic and aid others, one can be an atheist and aid others, one can be a Christian, Jew, Muslim or Buddhist and aid others...they do it because, quite simply, it is the right thing to do.

We don't require God/Allah/Jesus/The Bible/The Koran/The Upanishads/a priest/etc. to tell us what to do in order for us to do the right thing. If we are motivated to be moral we will do what is right simply because it is the right thing to do. If we have no motivation to be moral, no religion is going to make us moral.

[rasputin1952]

66. Like they say, "locks only exist ot keep honest people honest"...

If you have a baseline morality, you can build off of it; if your baseline is immoral, it is difficult to find a moral attitude you will adhere to.

Some people attempt to disguise their immorality w/different aspects of different religions, (the old 'pick and choose' if you will). I find it very disconcerting when someone tells me the Bible says that murders must be killed...but if you read Old Mosaic Law, it can be shown that children who are
indignant to their parents should be stoned to death. I don't see too many taking THAT course of action, (Thank God!).

I try to follow the teachings of Jesus, but I also look to other aspects of some religions to build a moral issue. It is a difficult road to follow, but it can be done one step at a time. There are no truly 'easy' answers, and learning from one's mistakes is imperative to growth. No one has all of the answers, but each day, we can find something new and add it to our experience digest.

[Random_Australian]

67. Nope, in both meanings.

[manic expression]

68. Please

the assumption that the Nazarene was so compassionate is ridiculous. First of all, so much of the Bible was added later that it is impossible to say what he did or didn't do, and this makes the Christian mindset fall apart. Secondly, he is attributed to say many intolerant things (such as all truth is of him).

Something that is also telling is the fact that the classical Christian concept of compassion is one that simultaneously condemns the same object. They have "compassion" for you because they think they are going to heaven and you're not. Real "compassionate", right? :eyes:

Just my opinion.