Seth Speaks

[Popol Vuh]

For those not familiar with Seth and his books. Seth is an entity who dictated a set of books through the body of Jane Roberts. His books are an attempt to explain who you are and the universe around you, he explains death and religions, your consciousness and subconsciousness as well as other stuff.

If you've never read Seth, I highly recommend it. If you do, I recommend starting with the book "Seth Speaks".

Below I'll post a couple of links each providing 50min's of audio reading from the Seth Speaks book - (not all of the book is on these audio). The subjects these two audio links focus on are:

- The identity and multidimensional aspect of the soul
- Consciousness
- Death and after death experiences
- Reincarnation
- Christ, his crucifixion
- The nature of God
- The rise and fall of nations that preceded Atlantis

(These links are free, just follow the instructions).


Seth Speaks (audio 1)

Seth Speaks (audio 2)

[Speck Tater]

1. Pretty heavy way to start.

I'd go with "The Education of Oversoul Seven" as an easier intro to the subject.

[bluesbassman]

2. Thanks for the link.

Tell me, what's your take on Seth?

On edit, I thought I would mention that I studied Edgar Casey some years back. Some interesting concepts, but I could never quite square with man equals God.

[Popol Vuh]

4. You're very welcome bluesbassman

What's my take on Seth? Well.....being someone who meditates and has out-of-body experiences. From my experiences, I can comfortably say that I believe with what Seth says.

There is SO MUCH more to this universe than we officially write about. It is of my opinion that whoever doesn't achieve out-of-exploration of one's self and the world around him/her, they are really missing out on an amazing aspect of our reality. Reading Seth can provide some knowledge in this area or provide you some direction if you do out-of-body explore.

[bluesbassman]

10. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Sounds worthy of further study. I look forward to it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. I tried hard to do out of body

literally for years. The problem was trying too hard, I think, for when it happened, it just happened. Glad to find another here who knows something of certain practices and states that aren't talked about all that much.

[SPKrazy]

19. I've Wanted To Have OOB Experiences

but I always fall asleep when I meditate, even sitting in less comfortable positions.

[Popol Vuh]

26. Hi Southpawkicker

Yes falling asleep is one of the common problems. Have you tried these few things?

- Find a space "other than where you go to bed" where you can work on your OOB experiences. The reason has to do with ourselves being conditioned that its sleep time when we sit or lay on our beds.

- Try conditioning yourself not to fall asleep in new spot by doing something such as burning incense when working on OOBE's and kind of gradually working your way to a meditative relaxed state, each time going at it just a little longer. Its important to realize when you're getting too sleepy and getting up and telling yourself this is not your sleep spot. Sooner or later you should be conditioned enough to meditate long enough without falling asleep. The new spot, together with the smell of incense will tell your mind that it is NOT time to sleep.

- Only try doing OOBE's when you're not tired -and- try setting your alarm to wake you earlier in the morning. Then get up and walk around for about 10 to 15 min's. The trick here is to wake up your mind, and then before your body fully gets worked up, try an OOBE. Your mind should have had sufficient sleep and the body should still be in a relaxed state. Prime conduction to try doing an OOBE.

- Firmly repeat these affirmations to yourself as much as you can when you are attempting an OOBE: "I will not fall asleep" - "I will have an OOBE" - "I am now out of my body"

- Lastly, but quite expensive, there is the Hemi-Sync Gateway series produced by Robert Monore at the Monroe Institute.

I wish you luck Southpawkicker.. :)

[greyl]

64. Try Salvia Divinorum, I think it's still legal. ;) nt

[SPKrazy]

81. Had To Look That One Up

and I appreciate the referral

but I think I'll pass as I don't know any Shaman practitioners to try this with

I don't think I'd want to try it without the expertise and experience of them as my purpose would be to find spiritual realms and not to get high

My past experiences with psychoactive substances never stayed in the realm of trying to find spiritual truths, they in fact were always about getting high!

But today, I don't do those kinds of things anymore, so I'd be very reluctant to try some substance that I had no experience with, or reason to use, unless I were working with a Shaman, and on a Shamanic path.

thanks

[Popol Vuh]

25. Hi ayeshahaqqiqa

Always nice to meet someone like you.. :hi:

[greyl]

23. What part of the experience do you believe took place

outside of your mind? Do you believe 2 people having an oobe can meet each other?

[Popol Vuh]

27. Yes

Two or more people can have OOBE's together. In fact there are groups of people who meet up with other people from all around the world at certain places. The great pyramids in Egypt is one of the world's biggest meeting up places.

I myself had OOB sex with my current girlfriend (who btw, is much better at OOBE's than I am), before I did in real life. Also, she has on a few occasions while she was out, pull me out too. These kind of things take a lot of experience and a lot of energy. Energy that is worked on through the body's chakra system and the chakra's sub (or minor) system.

[greyl]

28. The pyramids are an obvious choice.

Most people share similar mental models of the pyramids, even if they've never been there.
Do you think you could meet at a WaWa and give equal descriptions of the cars getting fueled up? I don't.

I'm not sure if you answered the question about what part of the experience actually took place outside of your mind...?

[Popol Vuh]

29. Not exactly sure what a "WaWa" is

But I have indeed been OOB on many occasions with my girlfriend and we both talk about the experiences we've had together. Also, I have on a couple of occasions visited my older brother (who expressed his disbelief), while OOB, then later calling him to tell him what I saw him wearing, what I saw him doing, and what I heard him saying. Needless to say, he doesn't express his disbelief anymore.

"What part of the experience actually took place outside of your mind...?" I am not exactly sure what you're trying to ask. I think it has to with my reply post to bluesbassman's post. If so, then some of the experiences I was referring to are a little difficult to explain to someone who doesn't have a personal reference of OOBE's. But other experiences would include seeing my father and relatives of mine who have passed away, seeing my neighbor's astral body while he was sleeping and talking to him and showing him that I could fly. About a week later, when I was talking with him physically, he mentioned that he had a dream with me in it talking to him before I became a bird and flew off. He doesn't believe me when I told him what had really happened.

Anyway, experiences such as these as well as the overwhelming experience of who and what you truly are when you have an OOBE are what I was referring to. When you have an OOBE, you instantly realize that your physical body is not who you truly are. Its a little hard to put into words. Its something you'll have to experience yourself -- and you will sooner or latter.

[greyl]

30. WaWa is like 7-11.

Why do you assume I have no experience with oob experiences? It's a false assumption.
We both hold different explanations of them is all.

"...the experiences I was referring to are a little difficult to explain to someone who doesn't have a personal reference of OOBE's"

Don't talk to my head, speak from your heart. ;)

"When you have an OOBE, you instantly realize that your physical body is not who you truly are."

Disassociation isn't required to "realize" that, is it?

""What part of the experience actually took place outside of your mind...?" I am not exactly sure what you're trying to ask."

The concept of an out of body experience implies that ones point of awareness can occupy a physical location.
I'm asking you what part of the experience exists other than thoroughly within the mind of the experiencer.

[Popol Vuh]

31. greyl

If you are someone who has OOBE's. First off, then I don't understand why you need explaining to. Secondly, you should then know first hand that you are a none physical entity capable of separating from your physical body. Now you may refer to this as just "a point of awareness" if you wish, but then you're going to have to explain what this point of awareness is made of if not made up of the energy which is your none physical (energy) self.

If your answer is that its just your mind acting upon memories and creating from them a sense of reality while you are in a dream state. Then you're going to have explain how I am able to project to places, such as my brother's house, and accurately see what's occurring at that time when I am supposed to be asleep in my own bed, and in the case of my brother's house verifying it over the telephone right after the experience.

[greyl]

32. I have to explain things?

I'm trying to, maieutically. It would help if you were more directly responsive.

[salvorhardin]

33. Stop using big words!

You'll confuse the kiddies. ;-)

[Popol Vuh]

35. Kiddies?

Click my sig....n/t

[Popol Vuh]

34. Well.....I have answered both

Of the questions you've asked.

You asked if I believed two people can meet each other. I "directly" answered by giving you a couple of my own experiences with my girlfriend.

You also asked what part of the experiences do I believed took place outside of my mind. I "directly" responded by giving a few examples of my experiences that I believe (that I know) took place outside of my physical body. You then responded to that with an assertion that these experiences seem to point to that a person's "point of awareness" can occupy a physical location. The term "point of awareness" implies just that........just awareness. So I then "directly" responded by asking if you believe that OOBE's are just a point of awareness, then you need to explain what this point of awareness is made of it its not made up of a person's none physical energy body.

Sorry if my answers are not what you're looking for, but I have been directly responsive.

[greyl]

36. I don't think so.

Plus, it was more than both. ;)

Here are two I don't think have been addressed:

"Disassociation isn't required to "realize" that, is it? (that "we" aren't solely our physical self)
"...what part of the experience exists other than thoroughly within the mind of the experiencer?"
(in other words, what evidence is there that oobes)

When I use "point of awareness", it's practically synonymous with mind, consciousness, perspective, origin of perception etc. I think you probably get the idea. I wasn't saying that oobes are a point of awareness, I said oobes imply that ones mind can occupy a point in physical space relative to other things in physical space. By definition, they are outside of the body. One isn't perceiving things through ones physiological eyes during the experience, iow. Very much like dreaming. Know what I mean, Vuh?

[Silent3]

48. Of course, I'll have to be the big party pooper and ask...

How come there aren't any experimentally verifiable results, anything better than anecdotes about visiting your brother's house and the like, if all these OOBEs are happening all over place? I appeared in physical form -- you know, like an ordinary visit, involving planes and tour busses -- at the Great Pyramids in Giza just a few months ago. If I send you a picture, know anyone who can tell me what date and time I was there?

I'm sure I should have been very easy to spot by the Spiritually Enlightened hovering all around me in the Power Vortex of the Pyramids, with my highly skeptical nature screeching away like an errant kazoo going off during a quiet passage in the Cosmic Symphony. :D

If OOBEs really worked, the practical benefits would be enormous, benefits far too great for even the most unfair, unwarranted, blinkered culture of skepticism to keep wide-spread knowledge and acceptance of such phenomenon put down for generation after generation after generation.

Or is it just that OOBEs conveniently work in such a way that any attempt to skeptically document the phenomenon, and put the observations gleaned from OOBEs to the test, somehow "isn't allowed"?

[bluesbassman]

49. It's actually a big conspiracy K4K....

to keep you and the rest of the scientifically enlightened from experiencing anything outside of your controlled environments and laboratories. But keep hitting the books and you'll be fine in your observable, documented, and verifiable world.:hi:

[Silent3]

50. Smart ass response aside...

Think of the good that could be done with OOBEs: search and rescue operations, finding lost love ones, seeing preparations for dangerous threats before they happen. Think of the scientific research that would be possible in rain forests, deep seas, other planets, the interior of this planet. Think of the lives that would have been saved if OOBE-ers had seen that giant tidal wave coming a few years ago and warned people.

Why is it that these things aren't routine? Because unless you do that squinty thing with your eyes and believe really really hard the magic doesn't happen? Not enough people believe hard enough? All those mean 'ol skeptics send out negative vibes that screw thing up for everyone else?

Or maybe the Powers That Be have declared that this ability Simply Doesn't Work That Way?

Yet somehow this stuff does work often enough for the occasional, statistically insignficant rescue story? Or OBBEs work when you're goofing around with your buddies and try to count the twinkies sitting on the kitchen table at home via OOBE, and when you get home... you were right!!!

This has nothing to do with MY world, "observable, documented, and verifiable" or otherwise. If OBBEs were real events, not just exciting mental experiences but something which actually put you in a place where you could perceive things from remote vantage points, the whole world that all of us live in would be changed in major ways by such abilities.

[bluesbassman]

51. Oh, I don't know...

why hasn't science found a cure for cancer? Why hasn't hunger been eliminated by man's supreme intellect? Where's Jimmy Hoffa buried?

Don't believe what you don't want to believe in K4K, but this is the R/T forum where we discuss and debate topics like this. You are obviously an intelligent and well informed person, but your snide and derogatory comments add nothing to the debate IMO.

[Random_Australian]

54. "why hasn't science found a cure for cancer?" is something that

really ticks me off. Did science SAY that it could? Did science SAY that it would? Did science, AT ANY TIME, suggest that it could do whatever it wanted? That since it has made enourmous strides in confronting every problem ever faced, but not found some cure-all, it is somehow invalidated?

Please refrain from suchlike remarks in future - science never promised us anything other than accuracy in making models about how the world works.

Same goes for "Why hasn't hunger been eliminated by man's supreme intellect?" why the hell should it?

In other words, I view this as "why hasn't science controlled gravity?"

Yeesh.

Of course, this is R/T, so we must make amends, therefore post what you think about what I have said and we will try to come to an understanding.

[trotsky]

58. "snide and derogatory comments"?

That's interesting, coming from the author of post #49.

These are honest questions. Proponents of OOBEs claim to be able to visit places and see actual things. Why has there never been one instance of an OOBEr going to find a victim in a collapsed building? Or how about locating a kidnapped child? Why is every story along the lines of visiting a friend and telling them what they had for lunch? Ooh! How wonderfully enlightening!

Science at least has an enormous track record of actually accomplishing things and saving lives. So please, if you want to line up the body of work of science and the body of work of pseudo-science, let's get started right away!

[Silent3]

59. Yes, let's "discuss and debate topics like this".

That's exactly what I'm doing. I add my own little sarcastic barbs in what I say -- just as you quite freely do -- but I am discussing and debating.

You don't think questioning the validity of OOBEs is a valid debate approach? You don't think questioning the useful fruits of OOBEs, or rather the enormous lack thereof, is a valid debate approach?

What does science not being able to do anything and everything imaginable you might ask of it have to do with whether or not OOBEs do anything useful or anything verifiable at all?

Am I supposed to give the whole OOBE thing some sort of "well, it's still under development" pass -- is that what you're going for? Am I supposed to be patient with OOBEs and the huge lack of useful and verifiable results because it's like a product that's still in the lab, not quite ready for use? Is it because, oh, say humanity as a whole is "still struggling to enter a New Age of Enlightenment", and until we do, the whole OOBE phenomena can't be expected to get beyond a few select Enlightened Ones (who are, like, so "open-minded" and wise and kewl) oohing and ahhing about how amazing it is to visit grandma's house and see what kind of flowers she's planting in her garden this year?

[bluesbassman]

68. My apologies.

After reading the sub thread again, I realize that I have mixed my positions. I should have stayed with sarcastic barbs. I claim sleep deprivation, and will try to keep on track next time.

bluesbassman=:spank:

[Evoman]

62. Lol...the ironic thing is: Science has cured some cancers

Cancer is not straightforward...there are many types after all. But since science came on the scene, many cancers now have a great five year survival rate. I mean, back when there was no science, the survival rate of testicular cancer was 0. Now, its 95%. I would say thats a pretty good improvement.

We've learned a LOT using science. Right now, I'm studying migration and intercontinental movements of organisms MILLIONS of years ago. And what are we doing with OBEs? Finding out what colour of sweater are family members are wearing. LOL!

Geez, you think with those kind of powers, we might be able to find out the nature of black holes, we could study other planets, and we could detect all kinds of disasters and save countless lives. Nope, can't be bothered...there are more important things to do. I gotta go see what mom is cooking for supper today. There is no reason that science could not be used to study OBE or even that people who have OBEs become scientists so they can tell us things that are difficult to do in corporeal form.

What I find the most ironic, however, is that a lot of people have bad opinions of science. "Oh science is hiding things, oh woe is me". Despite the fact that most scientific studies are either meticiously explained in journals or make, you know, actual products and services. You ask the scientists to prove his work, he replicates it. You ask an OBE experiencer to prove his talent, and he refuses, and makes excuses.

Its seems to me that if OBE really does exist, and people on this website could do it, then I should be able to give them my adress, and they should be able to tell ME what I'm wearing or what I look like. Hmmmm...

Evoman

[smirkymonkey]

126. It seems to me that Science has a better track record than "God".

I don't think Science is the be-all-end-all, but I certainly have reaped more benefits from the wonders of the laboratory than of "God".

Of course a lot of people belive in the kind of God that lets you "survive" when your house burns down, but doesn't see fit to intervene before the flames get out of control.

[Zhade]

80. Pointing out the fact that there is no objective evidence for OOBEs...

...is being "snide and derogatory"?

What's next, calling someone a jerk for not believing Bigfoot absconded with Elvis to Magical Unicorn Island?

(Now THAT'S snide!)

But seriously - like gods, there is no evidence outside the alleged experiencer's mind that OOBEs exist (which is too bad, because I've always liked the idea and would love to have one, if they turned out to be real).

A simple question: how do OOBErs know, for certain, in a way that can be backed up with solid evidence, that these purported experiences aren't the effects of sleep paralysis hallucinations (a phenomenon which scientific research HAS shown occurs)?

[charlie]

3. I remember those

Pretty popular series in the 70s. Unlike those who came after her (JZ Knight and the like), neither Jane nor Robert seemed much interested in celebrity or mega wealth. Though I didn't have much use for Seth's teachings, I respected the pair's sincerity, the way they continued to live in their old house in Elmira and hold their small workshops there.

It was difficult for a lot of Seth followers to reconcile the circumstances of Jane's death with her "you create your own reality" message. Could be why her books have a diminished legacy.

[Popol Vuh]

7. Ahh yes!! Robert Monroe

Next month charlie, I will be purchasing the Hemi-Sync Gateway Experience Series. I can hardly wait.. :) :)

[charlie]

9. Aren't those based

on the 7hz synchronization effect? I recall from years back freeware programs that'll flash your screen and emit audio to the beat. Not as spiff and probably as not effective as dedicated headgear, but they're likely still out there if you're antsy to get started before the goodies arrive :)

[Popol Vuh]

8. Ahh yes!! Robert Monroe

Next month charlie, I will be purchasing the Hemi-Sync Gateway Experience Series. I can hardly wait.. :) :)

[Quantess]

84. I wonder, what were the circumstances of her death?

She died of cancer, if I remember correctly... Every human has to die sometime, so I am not understanding why her followers would be disturbed by her death..?

[dweller]

5. recommend also

The Nature of Personal Reality

many quotes available online: http://sethquotes.paradisenow.net/

enjoy.
dp

[Popol Vuh]

6. Thanks dweller

Thanks for the links..

:hi:

[trotsky]

11. Jane Roberts offered up Seth's wisdom for free, right?

Or at least only charged enough for the book to pay for its publishing costs? Because surely Seth wouldn't want just one person to get rich on his wisdom, would he? Why not speak to each and every one of us directly?

Can you legally share those audio recordings?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trotsky]

18. I win!

This must be a variant of Godwin's law or something. The person who brings up a Coulter comparison loses the argument by default.

[greyl]

21. Seth isn't a writer. Are you getting paid to write here? No.

You do it because it's meaningful and important to you. To a lesser degree, the same kind of motivation I'd expect a channelled entity to have. A husband and wife writing team trying to score a book deal probably have different motivations.

[okasha]

37. This isn't "writing;" it's conversation by keyboard.

Yes,thank you, I did realize that "Seth" is not a writer. The person who produced the book, on the other hand, is a writer. If a writer with a message to be communicateed for the good of the community should simply donate his/her labor, why shouldn't doctors and nurses? How about police officers and firefighters?

Writing is work, sometimes difficult and draining work. Do I expect to be paid for my fiction and articles? Damn right I do. There's no reason why the author of the Seth books shouldn't expect to be paid, too.

[greyl]

38. In your opinion, what was Seth's role in the writing of the books? nt

[okasha]

46. Haven't the foggiest. Haven't read the book.

However, I'm fairly sure that quite human, physical fingers did the typing and revising and mailing of manuscripts and signing of contracts. In other words, the work.

[trotsky]

42. Doctors, nurses, police officers, and firefighters

are providing secular services. They are not there for our spiritual fulfillment. A better comparison here would be clergy. RC priests take vows of poverty and some even write books, but they certainly don't collect payment for them. If Jane Roberts truly "channeled" Seth and wanted to bring his valuable spiritual advice to us, why not seek the way that would make it most accessible to the greatest number of people? Surely money isn't important in the grand spiritual scheme of things? Funny how all the gurus and channelers and faith healers have lovely haciendas in the hills. Bringing spiritual wisdom into the world sure nets you a bunch of material rewards.

[okasha]

47. Come now, surely doctors shouldn't demand mere filthy lucre

for saving a life, now, should they? What kind of dedicated healer would care about Mercy B's and haciendas in the hills? Surely they should be practicing their vocation for the sheer satisfaction of helping people. Anything else would only show they're just quacks and snake oil salesmen out to take advantage of the gullible. :sarcasm:

A better comparison here would be clergy. RC priests take vows of poverty and some even write books, but they certainly don't collect payment for them.

And you think Father Andrew Greeley finances million-dollar scholarship funds and endows academic chairs at universities by filching nickels out of the collection plate? Of course priests collect payment for their books. Hate to break this to you, but there are some orders that are actually required to have secular jobs and support themselves. And they cash their paychecks and pay their light bills just like anyone else.

[trotsky]

57. Key words: "some orders"

C'mon okasha, I know you really really dislike me but you're on the shakiest ground imaginable. No wonder you're instead resorting to comparing me to Coulter, or arguing from extremes like police or doctors being unreasonable for taking a salary.

Roberts was a sham, a fake, a charlatan, a swindler. Like all the channelers are. If you want to defend them, be my guest. I don't like to defend thieves.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Strong Atheist]

12. .

:eyes:

[Popol Vuh]

13. Strong Atheist

If you're an Atheist, like myself, you should love reading Seth. :hi:

[Random_Australian]

55. ...

:spray:

Look back a page or so and you will see why that is damn funny.... or I could just tell you that long wars have been fought about how atheism does not have intrinsic characteristics, which made this post *rather* incongrous. No offence given, I hope!

[Igel]

14. Not an atheist.

But not an 'immortal soul' person, either.

:eyes: :yoiks:

[Goblinmonger]

107. DUDE!

Awesome to see you back. And with the best response on the thread so far.

[Random_Australian]

113. Sorry, but it does not appear Strong is back - this is an old thread that

has been resurrected.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. I read Seth Speaks first in 1972

I was guided to the book, and told it was to be my primer in spirituality. I think I have read all the Seth books at one time or another, and have found that they were, indeed, an excellent foundation for me on my spiritual journey.

[greyl]

20. A Christian's explanation:

"There are three possible sources for the messages of the New Age channelers:
The Dead Masters Model
...
The Demonic Manifestation Model
...
The Deceptive Manipulation Model
..."

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/channelling.html

I thought it was interesting. :) I'm going with Deceptive Manipulation.

[Quantess]

85. I have seen enough of Christianity to know that you are right.

Anything that does not involve prayer to a deity seems to be labeled demonic. In other words, the human always is supposed to seek God, not vice-versa.? A human humbly beseeching wisdom from God is expected, but anything else is suspect.

Jane Roberts was , according to her, on her 10th cup of coffee when she had a spiritual breakthrough. The nature of the universe (or likewise) became clear to her as she looked out of her kitchen window. She suddenly understood, and then a voice started speaking to her.

So clearly you and I both believe that Jane Roberts was (she's deceased) not making this up for financial gain. The difference is that I see her as having genuine spiritual insight, while you see this as "the devil's work".

BTW, I did not click on any of those links, I'm just going on your post.

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. It's the mention of Atlantis that pushes this into commercial exploitation

of gullibility. Before that, you can get away with calling this suitable for Religion and Theology. But bringing Atlantis into it shows she was aiming at the "so gullible they'll believe anything" market.

Why the hell are there people who think a mention of a place that couldn't have existed, according to all human knowledge, in an old story, is worth believing in? Are they so lacking in confidence in not just themselves, but their friends, family and society, that the are convinced we can't have got where we have using the skills we have now, but that some fabulous earlier society did all the really hard work for us?

Atlantis is a fable, people - designed to make a point about imperial overstretch.

[greyl]

24. Faith Salad escapism in an anti-intellectual bowl.

In our culture, in reality, many(if not most) of us are living deeply unfulfilling lives. It's quicker and easier to make delusional changes in ones perception than to manifest ones spirit into an authentic hero walking the earth.
I blame our dying society and its schools which lay its hollow trip on us. ;)

[Quantess]

86. Edgar Cayce was heavily into Atlantis. Seth & Jane Roberts have nothing to do w Atlantis.

Get your stories straight.

[muriel_volestrangler]

114. You'd better read the OP again then

I quote: "The rise and fall of nations that preceded Atlantis".

[Quantess]

117. Wow, you're right.

I have read many Seth / Jane Roberts books but I never noticed any discussion of Atlantis....not saying that Seth / Jane Roberts discussed Atlantis or didn't... I didn't notice either way.

Here's my take on this: The new publisher thought it would be good business to mention "Atlantis" to attract "new age" seekers. Seth books have nothing at all to do with Atlantis, at least 99%.

For me, this is where natural skepticism kicks in. I imagine Jane Roberts sitting there in her living room with 15 people, and one of them asks, "Seth, what can you tell us about Atlantis?" So, even while Ms Roberts is in a meditative state, she would still be able to hear the question, even in a trance state, so, she will naturally try her best to answer the question. That's the trouble with religion. Even the bible was written by men. You cannot get spiritual advice unfiltered by a human.

[Desertrose]

39. Hi popul vuh...I read Seth back in the 70's.

Really kicked out a lot of "old thinking" for sure. Definitely some powerful stuff that I feel has stood the test of time- even with all the new channelers/channeling since then. Jane Roberts was IMO pretty clear considering the sheer amount of information.


Have found another clear channel/info without all the heirarchical & religious stuff...you might want to check out sometime.
"The Book of Life" by Dr. Michael Sharp.

Also like his Book of Light" is excellent- but best read after the first book. Both are available for free online.
I like the clarity and no nonsense approach he takes.


Years ago I visited a (Monroe) Hemi-sync center in Quebec. It was not quite set up at that time & I was sorry I never had the chance to try it out.

As for OOBE's, they are not something that you really can explain intellectually considering it is something far beyond an "intellectual" experience.

Nice thread ;) ...so far

In La' kech
DR

On edit-added link to an interesting article about....Dualism by Dr. Sharp. Fits in this forum rather well I think with the ongoing atheist vs theist "discussions".

[Popol Vuh]

40. Thanks for the links Desertrose

That would have been nice if you could have had the chance to try out Quebec Monroe center.. :)

I agree that OOBE's are not something easily explained. I mean you can give details of your experiences. You can even provide proof that you were somewhere you physically weren't. And at the same time, yes, its not easy to explain to someone who hasn't had OOBE's that its not just your mind that's projecting outside of your body, rather instead, 'you' who inhabit a physical body are leaving your physical body just like when you die, except its only for a short period of time while your physical body isn't dead of course.

But anyway, I get the feeling that certain people (who claim to have OOBE's) are just trying to be smart-asses that's all.


P.S. I clicked the links you posted. I like what it has to say about The Book of Life. I am going to order a copy in a few moments. Thanks again Desertrose. :hi:

[greyl]

41. I'm not being a smart ass.

I've had several what I think you'd classify as out of body experiences along my path. I've presumed that you're aware of the egos urge for validation from others saying "yes, I'm seeing the same thing" and the sometimes frustrating traps & and always diluting limits of language reached when attempting to describe such transcendent experiences post hoc, so I was keeping the language simple at first as we felt our way through explaining the essence of our possibly similar experiences.
If you need more evidence that I'm being a real person with you, please let me know.

My current view of my past experiences is that they didn't exist in any way outside of my own mind. I previously believed they did. As a wiser person today, I don't.

From what I can synthesize from you so far, your experiences verifiably happened outside of your mind, yet their essence was of your mind. That could mean that you're taking the rationalist approach that all knowledge originates from mind, rather than the empirical pov which is that knowledge arises from sensory experience. If you're coming from a 3rd or 7th pov, please fill me in.

[hunter]

43. Losing your mind is a big pain if you are not asking for it.

Most of my own "out of body" experiences have been exceptionally unpleasant. I mean one minute you're sitting in an English class, and the next minute your professor has you by the hand and is walking you to the Student Health Center. Like, what happened? I dunno. The lights were on but no one was home. I think I was out at Searles Lake somewhere.



http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=16968

Part of this was a side effect of the medications I was taking then, part of it was the result of stress, and a lot of it was that I was simply crazy.

Frankly, it's hard for me to imagine that anyone would actively seek an out of body experience.

[greyl]

44. Why is it hard to imagine

that some want to escape from the responsibility of existing in reality for 70 or so yeaars?

[hunter]

45. Hmmmm, that sounds a bit judgmental.

Especially with that "responsibility" tucked in there.

My own point of view is that this "70 or so years" of reality is a gift. I won some cosmic lottery and I get to visit this place.

[greyl]

56. Sorry, didn't mean it to be.

How bout that it "sounds like a cool idea"?

[onager]

52. OOBEs in Egypt? Well, stop and say howdy!

The great pyramids in Egypt is one of the world's biggest meeting up places.

Yep, they sure is. Mostly because traffic is a real bitch on the Giza Road, as it is all over Cairo. I've been stuck there many times, since I've spent most of the last 18 months working in Egypt.

Next time you're having an OOBE in the Cairo area, you really should check out the view from the minaret of that famous little mosque located in the...oh, but of course you'd already know that!

Oh, and during your next OOBE, you could also wave as you pass my hotel room in Alexandria. I'm on the third floor.

:rofl:

Tip for normal, non-MystiKal tourists in Egypt: get your Egyptian tour guide to tell you about the goofballs who come over here and lecture them on Crackpot Egyptian History. ("All the records of Atlantis are buried under the paw of the Sphinx! Edgar Cayce said so!" "Why do you Egyptians suppress the REAL history of the Pyramids? Everyone knows the Aliens helped build them!")

Every tour guide seems to have a few of these stories, and they are hilarious. Especially since the tour guides are usually moonlighting grad students in Egyptian history or archeology, and actually KNOW the subjects the crackpot tourists presume to lecture them about.

To my extreme embarassment, it mostly seems to be Americans who do this.

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. Seth spoke regularly from 1978 to 2003

That's the real Seth - in the Emmerdale Farm/Emmerdale TV soap. http://emmerdale.org/emmerdale/profiles/seth.htm

[Silent3]

60. Beeza Hoot!

Tip for normal, non-MystiKal tourists in Egypt

I wonder how many of the Celestial Tourists have noticed that the Great Sphinx stares across a non-descript sandy lot at a Pizza Hut? Or does the mystical power of such journeys filter out such mundane and tawdry details? :)

[Popol Vuh]

61. LOL

I love listening to people who clearly have no experience with the subject of OOBE's try to discredit it. By listening to their comments about it, I can always tell that not only have they never tried to honestly verify for themselves if whether or not this is something possible to do. But I can also tell that they don't even bother to research the subject before making the unfortunate comments that they do.

Now as far as documented accounts of OOBE's? There's thousands of them that exist from all over the world from the millions of NDE's (near death experiences) reported to the doctors and nurses from these people.

There has also been plenty of scientific research done on the subject of OOBE's by The Monroe Institute. There has also been scientific research done about the drug DMT (Dimethyltryptamine) and the brain's pineal gland. There's lots of information out there for anyone who wants to look at the subject of OOBE's seriously. And of course there's also lots of quack or anecdotal information out there as well, but I trust you realize that this is true for most things -- especially controversial ones. Besides, at least OOBE's can be learned and personally verified. On the other had, the incredible tale of talking snakes and pillars of fire shooting down and the whole human race being started from what would have to be the incest-rial relations between Eve and Cain cannot. But yet, look at how many people blindly follow that dogma. Sorry, but I would rather have personal verification.

Now lets look at a few OOBE's from NDE examples. And maybe someone who disbelieves that we are a soul who posses a body, and that we can separate from our body can satisfactorily explain these verified examples.

According to a recent Gallup poll at least 8 million people in the United States have had Near Death Experiences (NDE's). Most of these people now have an unshakable belief that there is something beyond this earthly life of ours.

There have been some small attempts by scientists to clarify whether these experiences are real or hallucinatory. Their attempts have lead to some intriguing statistics. Dr. Kenneth Ring found out quite early that a patient who receives anesthesia is less likely to report a NDE than one who has not. Thus drugs do not seem to be the cause of NDE's. World wide researchers have found that NDE's do not vary from country to country or culture to culture. An Australian Aborigine will report the same kind of experiences as a New York Taxi Driver (not using the same language, of course). Also the number of reported incidences is amazing. Thousands have entered their names into the database of the International Association of Near Dead Studies. There is disagreement about what NDE's are, but that they have occurred to millions of normal people, is beyond doubt.

Some of the evidence is anecdotal. One lady found herself floating up to the hospital roof, where she noted a red shoe in the gutter. Upon her return to life, she told the doctor, who laughed and laughed. The Doctor told the janitor who also laughed, but he went up on the roof and looked for himself, and sure enough, there was the red shoe in the gutter! Another lady told her doctor she had watched her medical procedure while floating above the operating table. To prove it she mentioned that there were several coins on top of the cabinet in the operating room. The doctor got a chair, stood on it and looked, and sure enough the money was there in the denominations the patient had mentioned.


http://www.proofgodexists.org/life_after_life.htm

Vicki Umipeg, a forty-five year old blind woman, was just one of the more than thirty persons that Dr. Ken Ring and Sharon Cooper interviewed at length during a two-year study just completed concerning near-death experiences of the blind. The results of their study appear in their newest book Mindsight. Vicki was born blind, her optic nerve having been completely destroyed at birth because of an excess of oxygen she received in the incubator. Yet, she appears to have been able to see during her NDE. Her story is a particularly clear instance of how NDEs of the congenitally blind can unfold in precisely the same way as do those of sighted persons. As you will see, apart from the fact that Vicki was not able to discern color during her experience, the account of her NDE is absolutely indistinguishable from those with intact visual systems. The following is an excerpt from Dr. Ring's latest book reprinted by permission.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence03.html

Lets throw a little science on the subject

In the last few decades science has become aware of the serious limitations of human visual perception. The human eye is sensitive to only a narrow band of radiation. We see only the wavelength between .00007cm and .00004cm; the rest of the electromagnetic wave spectrum remains invisible to us. In fact, only a few one-hundred-thousandths of a centimeter make the difference between visibility and invisibility. Yet all of us are literally swimming in a sea of energy, immersed in a ocean of electromagnetic waves: gamma rays, X rays, ultraviolet and infrared rays, microwaves, radio waves, and shortwaves, to name just a few.

When we feel the heat of the sun, for example, we are feeling the result of invisible infrared rays; their wavelength is a little too long for our retina to detect even though our skin will register the rays as heat.

In effect, our perception of the universe is based upon only a tiny fraction of the energy around us. Even more shocking is the recognition that our current scientific technology detects only a portion of the entire energy spectrum. Most scientists believe that the electromagnetic wave spectrum continues far beyond our technological vision and possibly into infinity.

When we put this into perspective, we recognize that each of us is visually aware of only three-one-hundred-thousandths (.00003) of a centimeter of the energy radiation around us. We, who see so little of the universe, are quick to reach conclusions and judgments based upon the narrow limits of our vision. Our perspective of the universe, and of reality itself, is severely limited by the narrow range of our physical senses.

When we look around, we see a world of solid objects. On the surface, reality appears to consist of three-dimensional form and substance. Yet, as science explores deeper into the unseen heart of matter, remarkable discoveries are being made. Einstein's famous equation E=MC² tells us that matter is nothing more than a form of energy---in a sense, stored energy temporarily molded to construct the physical objects around us.

Once we recognize that all matter is actually energy, we can begin to realize that our surroundings are not completely what they seem. Quantum theorists no longer consider energy to be particle like in nature. Subatomic particles are no longer viewed as static things but as four-dimensional entities in space-time. In fact, the elemental particles of our reality (quarks and so on) are no longer considered substance at all. When physicists observe elemental particles, they describe them as dynamic patterns, constantly moving and changing into one another. Quantum mechanics has shown us that the elemental building blocks of our reality are not material but are patterns of energy.

Quantum physics has proved that our current physical concepts of form and substance are obsolete; not only is matter energy, but all energy is essentially nonphysical in nature.

When we examine the evolution of science over the last few decades, we see a growing body of evidence supporting the multidimensional structure of matter and the universe (string theory demands it). And the latest discoveries of quantum physics provide numerous examples. Also significant is the growing number of physicists, and astrophysicists who believe in the existence of parallel universes. When we look at history, we see that the idea of heaven or nonphysical universes is one of the oldest and most widely held beliefs of humanity. The concept of heaven appears in every culture and religion.

The Jewish and Christian religions teach the existence of three universes or dimensions: the physical world, heaven, and hell. Catholicism added a fourth with the concept of purgatory. In the Koran, Mohammed speaks of seven heavens or universes. When we examine religions and cultures around the world, the concept of unseen heavens or universes of energy is without a doubt the most universal belief of humanity. Today practically every religion and culture has incorporated this concept. Even though this is likely the most widely held theory in human history, verifiable evidence concerning the unseen heavens continues to elude humankind. Out-of-body exploration (astral projection) provides powerful personal verification that the religious "heavens" described in the scriptures of your religion actually do exist. Firsthand exploration have proved that the biblical heavens are in reality the unseen energy environments that make up the multidimensional universe.

At this point it is important for me to point-out that matter in the nonphysical universes (the astral plane) is extremely sensitive to thoughts and its the collective thoughts of millions of people (none physical people) who create their heaven. So yes, their is more than one heaven, and yes their is a hell. But there are also many other existences in the astral plane -- one other being the nonphysical part of our own physical universe. On that note I should point out that our physical universe is just the thin crust of the multitude of nonphysical dimensions.

As scientists continue to focus on external matter, another group of people are bypassing the traditional scientific methods of our current technological evolution and expanded human explorations into undiscovered areas of the universe. This is being achieved by incorporating self-controlled nonphysical explorations (astral projection) into the unseen substructure of the universe. The discoveries made during these nonphysical explorations provide revolutionary new insights into the unseen structure of the universe, our existence, and our continuation after death.

Based on out-of-body observations, all energy dimensions exist here and now. The seen and unseen universe is a continuum of energy frequencies. Each dimension exists independently according to its individual frequency, yet they are all linked by the flow of nonphysical energy. Each dimension of energy is interconnected with its energy neighbors to form a complete system---the multidimensional universe.

Each dimension encountered after we shed the physical body is progressively less dense in its vibrational substance. In effect, the universe can be compared with an energy wave spectrum. All the energy dimensions exist simultaneously within the same space-time continuum. For example, when I'm out-of-body I can occupy the same space as a physical wall or ceiling. I'm not separated from the physical wall by distance or time but rather by my individual energy frequency. During an out-of-body or near-death experience, we transfer our conscious awareness from our physical body to our higher frequency nonphysical body -- when our physical body dies our higher frequency body is instantly severed from the physical body.

One thing is certain. Decades of nonphysical explorations and millions of near-death experiences consistently point to a single conclusion: the direct substructure of the physical universe is a subtle form of energy undetectable by our current physical technology. This unseen energy is highly organized, structured, and supportive of the outer physical universe. The incredible amount of interdependence existing between the unseen, nonphysical dimensions and the outer physical crust of the universe points to a much more complex system of energy than modern technology and science are currently able to observe.

When we recognize the multidimensional structure of the universe, we realize that physical observation alone are inadequate. The galaxies and matter we observe around us are not the entire universe, as we assume, but only the dense outer dimension or molecular crust of the complete universe. The volume of the visible universe amounts to perhaps less than one-tenth of one percent of the multidimensional universe. Clearly, any scientific conclusion or theory based entirely upon observation of matter is built upon incomplete data. Each new nonphysical exploration into the interior of the universe substantiates this observation. Ask any of the millions of people who have had a near-death or out-of-body experience and they will agree: the universe is far more expansive and complicated than current physical science can even begin to comprehend or explain. As millions of people every year have out-of-body and near-death experiences, the reality of the multidimensional universe and its energy reactions will be recognized as observable fact.


(References: The Tao of Physics and Beyond the body).

[greyl]

63. "throw a little science on the subject"?

I don't think it landed. There isn't one morsel of scientific evidence provided in your post for what you are claiming. I'd love to see some.

To be clear, I believe the experiences are real, but not that peoples physical point of view becomes located outside of their body.

[Popol Vuh]

65. After reading your other post: (post #64)

I believe now I am able to see why you have the opinion that you do greyl:

To be clear, I believe the experiences are real, but not that peoples physical point of view becomes located outside of their body.

People who have consumed certain drugs such as LSD, Mescaline, Psilocybin or Salvia Divinorum, etc. may have their vibrational rate altered slightly as a result. This could allow them to see things out of sync with their physical body's vibrational rate and could allow them to project their awareness to a spot outside of their body -- just as you also explained earlier.

However, this is not an actual OOBE. The most important thing to achieve in-order to induce an OOBE is complete physical relaxation of ALL your muscles. None completely relaxed muscles will result in 'locking' your none physical body to your physical body. But due to the nature of the other (different vibrational rate) dimensions with respect to thought projection. Yes it is possible to project your awareness to a point outside your body while your none physical body remains. Its a bit closely related to Lucid Dreaming.



Now if you or anyone else is seriously interested in learning how and experiencing OOBE's. I am posting some information below to get you started.

This first set of links are "Free" for you to download and study. Although the information these first two link are, in my opinion, very decent information which can provide you enough to have your own OOBE. I however recommend two other sources. The first is the absolute best book I've ever seen on providing instruction. Its titled "Astral Dynamics" and written by Robert Bruce. The second, especially if you're a bit lazy to commit to studying a comprehensive book such as Astral Dynamics, is The "Hemi-Sync Gateway Series" audio CD's provided by The Monroe Institute. Although you're going to fork out some cash for them. There are other audio aids employing similar technology as with the Gateway series, however none of these have had the results that the scientifically researched and developed Gateway series has had.






http://www.robertpeterson.org/obebook.html







Free e-book "Do OBE"

http://www.geocities.com/octanolboy/do_obe.pdf << (may have to wait a little due to bandwith limitations)





The best manual on inducing OOBE's I've ever read

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1571741437/qid=1150488785/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-4939517-5434567?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

[greyl]

67. You assume far too much.

Like that there is scientific evidence for the brand of oobes you're talking about.

It would be amazingly easy to prove, but nobody has.

[Silent3]

66. Let's throw a little BS on the subject

I may have to come back later when I have the time to do a more thorough step-by-step breakdown of how messed up that previous post is. For now, in (relatively) brief:

No one is disputing that OOBEs occur, especially in the form of NDEs. What is in dispute is that these experiences are anything more than a construct of the mind, that via NDE one can gain actual knowledge and perceptions obtained from real vantage points outside of the body. That's where we cross the line from well-documented to nothing but scattered anecdotes about red shoes and coins.

True: Human perception is limited.
Invalid conclusion: Everything wonderful and new-agey is out there, just beyond perception! How do we know? By perceiving the imperceptible! Okay, well then it's not really imperceptible, but, um, well, it's special and you have to "open your mind" and believe, and then maybe it's "just knowing" and not perceiving and, well... trust us! You don't want to wallow in your limitations, do you?

And then there's blurring "dimension", in the sense of height, width, depth, and time with hell and heaven and purgatory? Christ on a crutch, I think I might need to start believing in God just so I can say things like, "God! What bullshit!" with more conviction.

So much crap to choose from, in so many layers, and so little time... what next?

"Out-of-body exploration (astral projection) provides powerful personal verification that the religious "heavens" described in the scriptures of your religion actually do exist. Firsthand exploration have proved that the biblical heavens are in reality the unseen energy environments that make up the multidimensional universe."

A bunch of people close their eyes, try real hard to imagine themselves in other places and... Wow! They come up with things that sound like they're repeating stories they've heard all their lives! Amazing coincidence or what!? :eyes:

"At this point it is important for me to point-out that matter in the nonphysical universes (the astral plane) is extremely sensitive to thoughts and its the collective thoughts of millions of people (none physical people) who create their heaven."
Damn, I'm glad you pointed that out! Sounds like unproven BS with nothing but wishful assertion of it's truth to back it up, but I'm glad you pointed it out anyway.

"Based on out-of-body observations, all energy dimensions exist here and now. The seen and unseen universe is a continuum of energy frequencies. Each dimension exists independently according to its individual frequency"

"On that note I should point out that our physical universe is just the thin crust of the multitude of nonphysical dimensions."

"Each dimension encountered after we shed the physical body is progressively less dense in its vibrational substance."

This is nothing more that baseless assertion, claptrap wrapped up in scientific-sounding words. Please tell me what "The seen and unseen universe is a continuum of energy frequencies" is supposed to mean? It's just blather. Oh, one could grasp for meaning in this BS, and find some corresponding valid concepts like wavelengths of electromagnetic energy, but it's all being tossed around and mushed together with total disregard for meaningful context and applicability of the vocabulary and the concepts behind the vocabulary.

Ever see this scene in the movie "The Princess Bride"?

Vizzini: He didn't fall? INCONCEIVABLE.
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I could say that about this whole mess of a post almost every place the words "energy" and "dimension" and "frequency" are used.

[immoderate]

70. You quoted my favorite movie line.

--IMM

[Evoman]

71. This stuff is NOT bs

Because you cannot perceive the vibrational dimensions beyond the mundane five senses, it is difficult for you or your SCIENTISTS to make sense of it. The density of vibrations on the planet Earth in the Carnal Plane, or the common dimensions, is so out of sync with people on the planet, that they never realize that there is more out there. You can't reach a higher dimensions unless you learn to vibrate at the same wavelength as the universe.

In science: two waves in sync, you get construction. If you are completely out of sync, you get destruction. Construction allows you to increase your wavelength to a degree with which you can use to penetrate the quantum signatures of this existence, and enter the astral dimension. By relaxing your mind or body, and by ceasing to fight nature, you can get in sync, create the CONSTRUCTION waves, and release your astral body.

Your astral self, the part inside of you that is trapped in one dimension, is yearning to join the rest of us OBE-se people. But only by shifting your quantum vibrations, are you ever going to do it.

There are cold dimensions, and hot dimensions. There are dimensions of such order, and their are dimensions of nothing but chaos. IMHO the best dimensions have a mix of these two forces. The chaotic frequencies of quantum vibrations or so intense and aggressive, that they are hostile to the astral body. Only creatures of pure chaos can get by in these dimensions. In the dimensions of order, the frequencies are less intense, but the wavelengths reach a maximum amplitude.

You need to open your mind and relax your body to see the astral plane and the non-corporeal dimensions. Skeptics often create around them bubbles of harmful, destructive vibrations. If you keep hanging out with other skeptics, and keep closing your mind, you will never open your third eye and see these energy frequencies.

Evoman

[Silent3]

72. That was masterful!

:yourock:

What's scary is that you could probably post that somewhere where people didn't know your posting history and not only have people believe you meant every word of it, but think you were really on to something, tellin' those mean ol' close-minded negative-energy-generatin' skeptics what's what! :D

[moggie]

82. Nice

But, in quantum penetration, does the size of the wavelength really matter, or is it more a question of what you do with it?

(Actually, I think shorter wavelengths are better for probing at the quantum scale).

[Random_Australian]

83. Except the term is Quantum Tunneling.

Science Nazi strikes again!

[Random_Australian]

73. Guess what? Some of us know enough about this to call BULLSHIT

Not your lucky day, my friend.

Try and maul my world view in an intensely offensive way will you? You'll find I call

BULLSHIT

Let's throw some actual science on the subject.

"multidimensional structure of matter and the universe "

Unfortunately, these dimensions are just like the ones we have now, just like width, breadth and height. Boy, must you feel silly now for insinuating that they had anything to do with that spirit stuff. Watch out Jimmy, if you sin, you will be sent to the purgatory.... where is that? In height!

"At this point it is important for me to point-out that matter in the nonphysical universes "

Matter is physical! Whoops again!

"Even more shocking is the recognition that our current scientific technology detects only a portion of the entire energy spectrum. Most scientists believe that the electromagnetic wave spectrum continues far beyond our technological vision and possibly into infinity"

Do you even have the faintest clue what you are talking about? Yes, any given scientific instrument detects only a range. Put them together and you will see that we cover anything that has any real effect whatsoever.

Of course it extends into infinity..... but do you know how the probability varies with wavelength? We can see more than enough of gamma, and we can build instruments to find any wavelength we theorise.

"Each dimension encountered after we shed the physical body is progressively less dense in its vibrational substance"

Except that we are in all 11 dimensions right now, so we don't have to go anywhere.
Sheesh.

"One thing is certain. Decades of nonphysical explorations and millions of near-death experiences consistently point to a single conclusion" uh, you can't make any conclusion whatsoever, let me put it like this..... what was your null? More importantly, WHAT WAS YOUR EXPERIMENTAL PREDICTION.

C'mon, I am listening! (Mind you, I expect a pretty foolish answer - if it is "I expect people to report the same thing" then you need to reread how science works.)

"When we recognize the multidimensional structure of the universe, we realize that physical observation alone are inadequate" and your mind is somehow not making physical observations? Please, share how something entirely physical does this, in other words, by what physical mechanism? I'm waiting.

" Clearly, any scientific conclusion or theory based entirely upon observation of matter is built upon incomplete data." Uh huh, which makes your theory worthwhile how? Which affects the validity of the scientific theories how?

BS, pure BS. Try to lie about what other people say, and you will find they become irate.

In conclusion:

The entire passage about science was the work of a Bullshit artist

Thankyou, ladies and gentleman.

[Popol Vuh]

75. Hey Random_Australian

BS, pure BS. Try to lie about what other people say, and you will find they become irate.

As far as I am concerned, everybody is certainly entitled to their own opinion about things - even things they've never experienced themselves which obviously you've never experienced OOBE's. People are also free to ridicule something that they don't believe or understand. Which is why it doesn't bother me to see some people respond the way some people have in this thread. That plus the fact that I have OOBE's so it doesn't bother me if other people don't believe.

However, I draw the line at personal insults. You are way out of line calling me a liar. If you wish to be critical about a subject you don't believe - that's your prerogative. But you have NO right personally insulting me.

[Random_Australian]

76. Unless you wrote the science bit, I was not calling you a liar.

Obviously never had one? Who do you think you are talking to?
I was not even talking about OOBE's, just the so called 'science' entitled that was the second part - when people don't tell the truth it really bothers me. That 'science' was far from the truth, in the least, weasel words, but it seems to me closer to deliberate falsehood.

Whoever wrote that 'science' seemed to me to be deliberately misrepresenting to say the least, thus the liar bit.

If you thought that was about you, and you did not write that so-called 'science'thing, then allow me to assure you that it was in no way connected to you. However, I shall now say my post was all about the 'science' part of that post... perhaps my intentions would be more clear if I sticked to calling BS, perhaps.

Edit: And what on earth gave you the idea that I do not believe in OOBE's?
Edit 2: And could your reply try to raise arguments against the validity of what I said about science? (and that the reference was not science) Pretty please?

[Popol Vuh]

77. After scrolling back up

to your post again. I agree that you didn't mention anything about OOBE's. My bad on that, and my apologies. It was a honest mistake.

However with respect to the science. I am going to have to get back later. Its late here in Los Angeles, I just got home from work a little while ago, I am now stoned and my girlfriend wants me to come to bed..

[Random_Australian]

78. Have a lovely evening, morning or day. (Or all three)

Well, at least we are on speaking terms!

See you around.

[moggie]

79. The shoe story

It's hard to be sure on such slim information as "One lady found herself floating up to the hospital roof, where she noted a red shoe in the gutter", but I think this is a reference to the "Maria" case, which is supposed to have taken place at the Harborview Medical Center, Seattle, in April 1977. The proofgodexists.org description is a bit mangled: she didn't tell her doctor, but her social worker, Kimberly Clark, who retrieved the shoe. Clark (oddly) didn't publicly report the case until seven years later, and has made money and a small amount of fame from the story. When Hayden Ebbern and Sean Mulligan investigated the case in 1994, they found a number of problems with Clark's account of it, as described in their Skeptical Inquirer article on the subject with Barry Beyerstein, Maria's Near-Death Experience: Waiting for the Other Shoe to Drop (SI July/August 1996).

Still, why bother with the notoriously difficult to research NDEs when we have a living subject who can have OBEs at will? Perhaps we could devise an experiment which would enable you to convince the skeptics?

[Imperialism Inc.]

103. I wish I could remember the name of the researcher that studied OBE.

She had one herself a very powerful one. She was studying science so she decided to investigate it. It was very real to her after all and she approached it with the idea that there must be something to it and she would find it. Turns out there was nothing to it as she now knows. She would place objects around her research building and bring in subjects. If they had an OBE and thought they were traveling the building they should have seen the objects she placed. Not a single subject ever saw a single one of the objects.

No one is saying people don't have such experiences only that they are not real. They are only in the mind of the person having them. Otherwise someone would have seen the objects.

[Goblinmonger]

108. Do you not realize the arguments you are making?

I was going to stay out of this little festivel but couldn't.

Don't you realize the logical infirmity of the argument of "you haven't done it so you just don't get it." How much more circular can you get. I wouldn't go flying around OOB after arguing like you are because you will be quite dizzy.

Show me the verifiable evidence and I'll believe you.

And why not answer trotsky's question. Why hasn't some OOBE actually resulted in something worth a shit. Why not find a kidnapping victim. Telling your brother what he was wearing is pretty damn lame. It is kind of like the reincarnation stories. Every one was a prince or king but you rarely hear stories of previous lives as a shit shoveler in the local stable.

[onager]

74. Oooh! Forgive me, OOBE-Wan-Kenobi!

I've read your links to the "scientific" research.

From The Monroe Institute home page:

The Monroe Institute does not promise out-of-body travel, but the Hemi-Sync® process can apparently get you ready for it by realigning your brain activity.

If they've "realigned brain activity", they should be getting ready to receive their double Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physics.

But here comes the REAL sciency stuff...

Hemi-Sync is a patented auditory guidance system developed by The Monroe Institute to engender states of focused consciousness. We contracted privately with Robert Monroe to work with Joe McMoneagle, an experienced, highly skilled remote viewer for the military Star Gate program...

Each training week I conducted an audit remote-viewing session to try to determine any improvement in Joe's remote-viewing performance. During one of these, I decided to use coordinates of some unusual structures on the planet Mars that Dr. Puthoff from SRI had provided me. As it turned out Joe described eight different coordinate-designated locations on Mars.

That's Hal Puthoff of Stanford Research Institute (SRI). SRI is not connected with Stanford University, though Puthoff would dearly love for us to think so. Puthoff is usually mentioned with his equally credulous buddy at SRI, Russell Targ.

Among other scientific accomplishments, Puthoff and Targ "proved" Uri Geller was a real psyschic.

Since you've provided so many links to study material for us unenlightened yobs, here's one for you:

Russell Targ and Hal Puthoff: The Laurel and Hardy of Psi

http://www.zem.demon.co.uk/flim.htm

[Goblinmonger]

109. Mmmmmm sciency goodness

I forget, is "sciency" higher or lower on the ladder than "truthiness"?

Sometimes I look around and know we are doomed.

Hey, you want to have a meet up tonight at that Sphinx Pizza Hut, I'll try fly by around 10pm your time? Or how about that falafal stand around the corner and down a few blocks? You know, the one run by that Egyptian guy.

[Quantess]

87. Obviously, nobody here except the OP has read any SETH books.

To their own loss.

I had my own spiritual breakthrough at age 17, similar to what Jane Roberts had, but I never had a voice telling me about spritual odds-n-ends, like what she got. No voices. Just insights. In my spiritual awakening, I felt as though I had re-connected with something that I had forgotten since before I was born, but yet had been there the whole time. I felt as though I was re-connecting with spiritual advisors / guardian angels who had always been there. And I knew that all life is connected.

When I picked up "Seth Speaks", I quickly recognized that the substance of what Jane Roberts learned in her spiritual awakening is the same as what I learned in my own spiritual awakening at age 17.

"What you concentrate upon, is what will be the outcome".

[Evoman]

Dupe.

[Evoman]

88. This Seth guy is pretty powerful...he can resurrect 8 month old dead threads.

[Quantess]

90. No... but I can resurrect an 8 month old thread.

The alternative is that I start new thread about Seth.
I'm just talking seriously here, but, really, which would you prefer?
(edit for spelling)

[Random_Australian]

89. Bah, given some reason, it might pique my interest. What was given on this thread,

IIRC, was balderdash.

But you're quite right - I haven't read the SETH books. And you've not read "University Physics, 11th Edition", so lets not be so judgemental in tone.

AND what's more.... your journy sounds interesting. Thanks for posting about it.

[Quantess]

91. What causes a person to respond to threads that don't interest them?

And also, I read your responses on this thread that are not attributable to Seth. You got those quotes from another source, not from "Seth", not from "Jane Roberts" either.

You just cut-n-pasted at will.

[Random_Australian]

92. Hah! Right.... news for you:

1) I wanted to know if it was going to be interesting. That was my reason for appearance.

2) "You just cut-n-pasted at will":rofl::rofl: Hey strange person, have a look. The top right corner, it says "reply #xx" and you'll find it most specific to each reply.

Furthermore, there is nowhere to copy-paste that stuff from.

Further more, I happen to be one good science student. Everything I said, I knew off the top of my head. Don't believe me? Why don't you ask something to test my understanding, oh-so-clever person.

:rofl:

You're hilarious. Keep digging. :)

So, are you gonna stick by your assertions? :rofl: :rofl: You just can't go around accusing people of random things and not get called on it, silly. :rofl:

[Quantess]

93. I read everything you wrote, but still,

I don't get what you're saying.

[Random_Australian]

95. You said I copy-pasted at will.

I said a couple of things, including the fact that if this were the case, then my posts would not correlate with the things they were replying to. When they clearly were.

I also said there is no place to copy-paste my statements FROM,

and finally, if I not copy-pasted, I would understand what I have written, which I do. I invited you to test me if you did not think this was the case.

These together mean that your assertion that I copy-pasted was basically refuted; and that if you didn't want to have to withdraw your claim you need to do something to back it up. Pronto.

:)

Edit: The various things I said about people were, in fact, replies to claims made. As for seeing what Seth had on offer, I simply watched.

[Quantess]

98. Do you have any interest in talking about Seth / Jane Roberts?

I was hoping to find someone who wanted to chat about their specific feelings about Seth.
Apparently, that is too much to ask.
It's okay, I know that nobody has read the books.

Just because you are responding does not mean I value your response.

[Random_Australian]

101. You mean, you realise you were making false allegations, and now you want

to back out?

Perhaps not - I have been too harsh in the past, perchance this time again.

Ok. I'll accept that this is the case this time.

Anyway, if you want to discuss Seth, I'm afraid such a small place won't give you a large amount of people who have read it; but I would be more than happy to argue about it. :)

So if you'd like a chat, just post some things that Seth says, and I will be glad to discuss them with you; however I think we may have vastly different views, but R/T is known as "The Arena" for good reason.

Excuse the poor grammar - I'm sleepy and must rest. See you in the morning!

:)

[Quantess]

105. Yes, I'm, getting snoozes, too.

No matter what you say, you're putting me to sleep.

[Random_Australian]

112. Post one line insults, complain that people don't want to discuss things.

:thumbsup:

[Quantess]

116. Well, now. I don't take kindly to your accusations.

You are the one who made wild assumptions about what was actually said/written, not me. You should really look back at your previous posts and recognize that you read things that weren't there, and were over enthusiastic with your ROFL smilies.

However, I am interested in your ideas about spirituality, since you are a physicist. I actually believe that Seth / Jane Roberts is the closest thing to a scientific viewpoint available to a spiritual outlook.

You might be an atheist, and I actually sort of would be too, except I've had some strange happenings (everyone in my life thinks I'm a down-to-earth person), so I'm officially an agnostic. Being an agnostic is the best, because you've officially allowed your mind to remain open.
Another tidbit: I had been drinking last night. Sometimes I'm 'not myself' when I drink.

I do believe that science will soon figure out the spiritual nature of life. Again, I appreciate physicists, and I hope to hear of your scientific insights.

(edited for spelling)

[Random_Australian]

118. You not to mine, and I not to yours.

Well then, I'm willing to let that last exchange go.

As for being over-enthusiastic about smilies... well, I'm over enthusiastic about nearly everything. :)

And, for another time, us implicit atheists officially leave their minds also open. There is rarely any one way to do anything, that's for sure. :rofl:

And also a short disclaimer: Though I know physics well, I'm not yet a physicist. I'm a university student doing physics and chemistry, both of which I'm quite talented at. Not yet the full thing though. :)

Well, I will see you around.

[Quantess]

119. I am absolutely sincere about wanting to hear people's ideas about spirituality.

That is the reason why you and I are both frequenting the "religion" forum, no? We're definitely not here to get dates. (Don't worry, I have a fiancee)

Another thing...you're assuming I'm not intelligent. I don't appreciate that, and I don't see any reason for you to think that you are smarter than I am. I already can predict how you will prance back
"...here's how you're so dumb... blah de blah."
In your own mind you have already won, even though you haven't actually accomplished anything.

[Random_Australian]

120. Ok hold up. What the hell are you on about?

If you think I'm an arrogant smug prick who thinks other people are dumb, you're reading something into my posts that isn't there.

And the quote "In your own mind you've already won"? Where the hell did that come from?

I'll put it another way: Thoughts that I am arrogant are as accurate as your prediction that I'd say you are dumb.

Is there something I'm missing?

Seriously, get to know me. You'll soon find out I'm NOT the kind of person that makes those judgements.

I do think one thing is stupid though - this damn argument! Seems like we're well talking past each other.

[Quantess]

121. I agree that this argument is stupid!

I already like you because you have an interest in physics.

[Random_Australian]

122. And I think you're interesting - so I propose we stop this argument.

In other words, peace and bye for now. I'll see you around in the main forum.

[DeSwiss]

111. quantessd, I've read Seth....

...when I was 24, way back in 1976. I've read all the Seth books and Jane Roberts' as well.

:thumbsup:

[charlie]

94. I did. I'm in the thread

I read Seth Speaks, The Coming of Seth, parts of Unknown Reality (I and II), and something or other to do with "aspect psychology", can't remember the name. They were pressed on me as must-reads back when Seth was hot stuff. I thought they were a mildly interesting and somewhat tedious melange of pop zen, psychology, physics, hidden history, and "as a man thinketh" self-help. Like I said above, I didn't have much use for Seth.

[Quantess]

96. Well, that's fine.

I know from experience that any religious talk goes right past you, unless it is something you can relate to your direct experience.

[charlie]

97. You do?

How do you know that? The only time I can remember talking to you is when you dropped a nastygram into my mailbox -- and it turned out you jumped the wrong guy. You don't know me.

[Quantess]

99. Sorry. Just translate

you=ya or you=y'all

[charlie]

100. Good grief

As if that makes a difference. You don't know me well enough to peg me as part of some y'all, either. Apparently, I'm now also a liar, since you still insist that "nobody has read the books." Well, whatever. Carry on.

[Quantess]

102. Yes, I do remember your one, singular post

about this topic.
And yes, I think your thoughts are so timely and charismatic.

Yes, as this self professed nerd has said before,
Great! Self-improvement is always in order.

[charlie]

106. Lol

You've got issues. Work them out on someone else.

[Quantess]

115. Oh, well. You took my words too harshly. I admit was too harsh to you,

because the "random australian" had already chapped my hide, so to speak.
My apologies. I do understand how someone could read Seth books and be unimpressed and/or bored. Thanks for your informed insight.

[Imperialism Inc.]

104. I read 2 of them when I was in the 20-22 yrs old range.

Having always been the curious type, there was a point where I read about a lot of crazy shit like Seth. I didn't really believe it at the time (nor disbelieve). I never responded to the subject because now-a-days , having seen enough of this kind of stuff, and having investigated it with an open mind, I consider it to be delusional gibberish.

[Quantess]

123. Yes, it is easily dismissed as "crazy shit", but

it fits right into quantum theory physics, in a way.

[trotsky]

124. No, it doesn't fit into quantum theory at all.

Swindlers like Roberts and other fakers are mocking what quantum mechanics really means. It's been a GREAT avenue for them to try and lend an air of scientific legitimacy to their lies, because most people aren't going to have a clue how their B.S. totally bastardizes quantum mechanics. Nor will they care, apparently.

[Bill McBlueState]

110. my phd dissertation

For my phd dissertation, I'm trying to show that in solar-mass young stars, the outflows seen in Hubble images are sometimes launched directly from the star, rather than from the disk around the star. Data from an out-of-body experience could conclusively determine whether that's the case. Such data would be much more convincing than the indirect spectroscopic probes we now use, and I'd instantly become a well-known astronomer.

Since OOBEs are so easy to do, would you mind flying off to the Taurus star-forming region and making some observations for me? A measure of the density in five to ten outflows would be great. I'm sure I could find a way to compensate you for your troubles, however minor they are.

[nickols_k]

125. My OBE/NDE

I've published my own NDE/OBE
http://my666.boom.ru/666_en.html

Be bless!