50 proofs that God is imaginary.

[greyl]

It is easy to prove to yourself that God is imaginary. The evidence is all around you. Here are 50 simple proofs:

1. Try praying
2. Statistically analyze prayer
3. Look at all historical gods
4. Think about science
5. Read the Bible
6. Ponder God's plan
7. Understand religious delusion
8. Think about Near Death Experiences
9. Understand ambiguity
10. Watch the offering plate
11. Notice that there is no scientific evidence
12. See the magic
13. Take a look at slavery
14. Examine Jesus' miracles
15. Examine Jesus' resurrection
16. Contemplate the contradictions
17. Think about Leprechauns
18. Imagine heaven
19. Notice that you ignore Jesus
20. Notice your church
21. Understand Jesus' core message
22. Count all the people God wants to murder
23. Listen to the Doxology
24. Ask why religion causes so many problems
25. Understand evolution and abiogenesis
26. Notice that the Bible's author is not "all-knowing"
27. Think about life after death
28. Notice how many gods you reject
29. Think about communion
30. Examine God's sexism
31. Understand that religion is superstition
32. Talk to a theologian
33. Contemplate the crucifixion
34. Examine your health insurance policy
35. Notice Jesus' myopia
36. Realize that God is impossible
37. Think about DNA
38. Contemplate the divorce rate among Christians
39. Realize that Jesus was a jerk
40. Understand Christian motivations
41. Flip a coin
42. Listen when "God talks"
43. Realize that a "hidden God" is impossible
44. Think about a Christian housewife
45. Consider Noah's Ark
46. Ponder Pascal's Wager
47. Contemplate Creation
48. Compare prayer to a lucky horseshoe
49. Look at who speaks for God
50. Ask Jesus to appear

http://godisimaginary.com/

Each proof has it's own page.

[Common Sense Party]

1. Want proof that God has a sense of humor?

Take a look in the mirror.




:rofl:

At least, that's what *I* do.


Thanks for the laughs. You won't convince anyone with that website, but you will amuse many.

[EST]

2. Please define:

imaginary
proof
god

thank you

[greyl]

3. alrighty

imaginary
- Having existence only in the imagination; unreal.
- existing only in imagination : lacking factual reality
- existing only in the imagination or fancy; not real; fancied

proof
1. evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
2. anything serving as such evidence: What proof do you have?
3. the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial: to put a thing to the proof.
4. the establishment of the truth of anything; demonstration.
...
8. Mathematics, Logic. a sequence of steps, statements, or demonstrations that leads to a valid conclusion.

god
1. God

a) A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
b) The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.

2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.

[lvx35]

4. Oh ho!

Then I shall use proof 50, by which I can ask a thing to appear for me to establish its existence as imaginary, upon president Bush! Appear Bush! (he is not in my room) Ha! Now away with you to the realm of the imaginary!!! :)

[greyl]

5. You're missing the point. Bush never claimed to do that, did he?

Here is what Jesus has promised us in the Bible:

Matthew 7 : 7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

In John chapter 14:14:

Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

In Matthew 18:19:

Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus is actually in our midst. So he is right here already, supposedly. Yet when we pray to him to physically materialize, as he did to hundreds of others, nothing happens.

Isn't it odd that Nothing happens, given the fact that Jesus promises us that something will happen? Isn't it odd that Nothing happens when, supposedly, Jesus is right here with us already, and materialization would be trivial for him? Isn't it odd that Nothing happens when, supposedly, Jesus was happy to appear to hundreds of others?

What you will find, if you think about it, is that the situation we see here is the kind of unambiguous situation described Proof #9. We have created a situation where coincidence cannot "answer" the prayer. The only way for this prayer to be answered is for Jesus to actually, unambiguously, materialize. In this situation, we also know that:

1. It is trivial for Jesus to materialize
2. There would be many benefits if Jesus did materialize
3. Jesus has supposedly materialized to other human beings
4. Jesus has promised to answer our prayer that he materialize

How do we explain the fact that this prayer goes unanswered, no matter who prays, despite Jesus' promise that he will answer our prayers?
http://godisimaginary.com/i50.htm

[lvx35]

25. Nice.

I think you just did an excellent job of disproving a literal interpretation of that text. Its actually kind of ironic, but atheists have done a great deal for my personal spiritual understanding...(none more than Dawkins) By clarifying what is not true in religious thought. This is important, because what is true in religious teachings tends to be more subtle and abstract.

As far as what the quoted text if about, I refer you to Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

In normal thought we come to believe a thing to be very true by seeing evidence of it repeated. In faith, we come to see evidence of a thing repeated by believing it to be very true. This is the mental mechanism that is the CORE of faith. I know it sounds completely absurd, but the wierd thing is that sometimes it appears to actually WORK, and millions of people have this experience, wich confirms and strengthens the worlds religions. When it does not work, we blame the lack of evidence on the original idea not being held firmly enough, just like we might blame our disbelief in something on a lack of evidence, or we use an arbitration mechanism like God, and say that he overruled it.

So anyway, I could talk a load about that interesting stuff, but the point is that Jesus is playing a role of faith empowering, or giving you that little extra boost to really believe something. Jesus's statements are intended to increase one's faith, not accurately describe reality, that's my take! :)

[greyl]

27. Disproving a literal interpretation of that text

is a focus of the arguments at the site. You'd probably agree that there are millions of people who would benefit from having a more rational view of the Bible, and a more dependable method of discerning what good human behavior is.

...The list goes on and on. The Bible is nonsense in a thousand different scientific ways.

Ask yourself this simple question: Why, when you read the Bible, are you not left in awe? Why doesn't a book written by an omniscient being leave you with a sense of wonder and amazement? If you are reading a book written by the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving creator of the universe, wouldn't you expect to be stunned by the brilliance, the clarity and the wisdom of the author? Would you not expect each new page to intoxicate you with its incredible prose and its spectacular insight? Wouldn't you expect the author to tell us things that scientists have not been able to discover yet?

Yet, when we open the Bible and actually read it, we find it is nothing like that at all. Instead of leaving us in awe, it leaves us dumbfounded by all of the nonsense and backwardness that it contains. If you would look at the Bible fresh, and read what it actually says, you find that the Bible is ridiculous. The examples shown above barely scratch the surface of the Bible's numerous problems. If we are honest with ourselves, it is obvious that an "all-knowing" God had absolutely nothing to do with this book.

The Bible is a book written thousands of years ago by primitive men. A book that advocates senseless murder, slavery and the oppression of women has no place in our society today. It is time for us to recognize this simple fact.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/bible.htm

[Bill McBlueState]

28. I like that link!

This is interesting:

You: I thought you said that this is written by the most intelligent person in the universe. If we are going to follow what this author says, we have to kill half the people in America. We are supposed to kill everyone who has cursed his father or mother, everyone who has committed adultery, and every homosexual.

Me: Well, that's in the old testament, you see. The book is really two books, and the "old" part of the book doesn't really apply.

You: Are you saying that the smartest person in the universe once wanted us to kill every adulterer and homosexual, but then changed his mind? That somehow makes it better? If the "old part" no longer applies, then why did you hand it to me when I asked to see the book?

Me: Well, parts of it do apply.

You: Didn't you just tell me that it doesn't apply?

I've never understood how it is that some Christians are able to write off the Old Testament so easily. I mean, it's the same god in both testaments.

[lvx35]

32. Yeah, I would agree with your statement.

That's why I'm a fan of Michael Lerner's view, where he sees religious principles but important but also abstract and fundamentally non-material. Its the materially/literally true thing that's hurting religion and mankind and everything. But at the same time, I don't like the overly critical way the quoted text deals with the Bible, because I think it fails to see the possibilities in it. In a recent issue of a href="http://tikkun.org"]Tikkun, I read an article that was going over the seven deadly sins, first as basic nonos, then in a worldly context...It was asking things like "yes, lust is a desire to use the bodies of others for our own pleasures, at the expense of the greater good...So then isn't also the exploitation of laborers for $.30/hr a form of lust?" and "yes its gluttony to consume to much for ourselves and not give to charity, but isn't it also a sin then for america to be consuming resources at such a level while there is such poverty?" and so on. In other words, it was interpreting material facts from the world, and drawing non-material abstract wisdom from ancient Bible sources to explain their moral failure. In this way it had a respect for ancient principles and the people who value them, while also facing the facts of a modern scientific world.

Which I think is the only way possible to move forward...

[Zhade]

45. "the evidence of things not seen" - faith is not evidence.

The human author of that particular passage failed to grasp the simple fact that an assertion by itself is not evidence of ANYTHING except that the assertion has been made.

As to this "atheists read the bible literally" argument that keeps coming up, let me say this: if a Christian does not take all of the bible literally, they are cherry-picking what they believe based on nothing aside from their own internal motivations guiding what they choose to believe is literal and which is allegorical.

By underlining the patent nonsense of a literal reading in some cases (i.e., the age of the Earth being thousands of years), my hope is that liberal semi-literalist believers will examine the cognitive dissonance of thinking of things like virgin births as true while rejecting the nonsense of things like Noah's Ark.

I hope some will see the inconsistency in believing in the literal reading of one supernatural myth and not the other, and thus help their belief system move away from mythology and toward philosophy. Jesus, if he existed and was quoted even somewhat correctly, seemed to have a couple of good things to say about love; I don't think buying into unsupported silliness about resurrections and whatnot are important to that kind of thinking, and may even hinder it.

[Evoman]

6. I asked Jesus to appear and he did.

And then he told me that your heretical ways make him cry. A tear for each proof. And then I called Jesus a big wuss bag, cuz really...who cries at a posting on the internet.

The following conversations ensued:

Jesus: I am NOT a wuss bag.

Evoman: Well, then why are you always fucking crying Jesus.

Jesus: Hey, I took the nails like a man!

Evoman: Hmmm...thats true Jesus. That was pretty ..ahem..manly...*cough*whydidyouforsakemefather*cough*

Jesus: What was that?

Evoman: Nothing, forget it.

Jesus: So that greyl guy...why does he forsake me like this. Does he not know I died for his sins.

Evoman: Yeah..I meant to ask you about that. How exactly does one go about "dying" for sins. I mean...its not like a sin is a physical thing. Its a concept...its not like paying money for a pack of condoms. 10 condoms are 5 bucks. 5 condoms for 2.50. See, its linear....but how many quarts of blood does it take to forgive a sin. Couldn't god have just..I don't know...taken a hand or something.

Jesus: Hmmm..thats a good question. The big guy is all powerful..he could have just forgiven without a blood sacrafice. Hmmm.

Evoman: Or..say..if he had made two Jesi, instead of just you, could he have shared the burden a bit. Seriously, its a lot to ask. Lots of virgins...wouldn't be so hard to have a bunch of begotten sons right?

Jesus: You make a lot of sense Evoman. I'll think about it. So...can I ask you something.

Evoman: Are you going to cry at my answer?

Jesus: No no no....I just wanted to know. Why the hell are you paying so much for condoms? 5 bucks? Seriously..you could get them free at the Health center. Nevermind...I gotta get going. I have to make a Nacho appearance at 3.

Evoman: Later Jesus....and remember. It takes a big man to cry....but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.

Jesus: Jack Handey...cute. Later Evoman...don't tell the other christians I was here. I can't stand most of them...you..your a straightshooter...you tell it like it is. The rest of them *makes jerking off motion*. Later!

[greyl]

7. Hah!

:thumbsup:

[Peace Patriot]

8. Proof that God exists: He tells George Bush to torture and kill the

Infidels, and, lo and behold, the Infidels scream at the pain of his holy tortures and explode beneath his holy bombs.

I say unto you, wherever two gather and ask the Father in my name to slay thine enemies, or make them suffer horribly in this life, there my Father's love for tyrants, bullies, fingernail pullers and pedophiles will be made manifest.

[intaglio]

9. Carl Sagan pointed out "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

n/t

[greyl]

10. Of course. What do you make of the presence of these 50 proofs

that God is imaginary?

http://users.tpg.com.au/users/tps-seti/baloney.html

edit: I guess you're agreeing that evidence for God is absent? ;)

[Orrex]

26. Cuts both ways

The utter absence of evidence for a thing does not equal evidence of absence of that thing, but it does make it seem pretty silly to make positive declarations about the existence of that thing. At the very least, such an assertion has little credibility accept among those who share the belief that underlies the assertion.

I mean, what else in all the world do you (the general "you," not you intaglio) does one claim to exist despite an utter lack of evidence?

[Poppyseedman]

11. I imagine the person who runs that web page has issues

and WAY TOO much time on their hands.

I wonder what God thinks of people who spend their lives trying to prove he doesn't exist when they could be doing real service to mankind.

[greyl]

12. Her legs and one arm were destroyed in a car accident

caused by a drunk driving Republican minister.
There, but for the grace of ...

[Poppyseedman]

13. That's terrible.

Too bad she's blames God instead of the drunk who ruined her life.

[Random_Australian]

14. Who said she blames either?

Looks to me more like she blames what enabled it to happen.

ie. people thinking that ministers are wonderful and giving them a free pass.

Or any number of other reasons.

But now I think about it, how on EARTH could you blame something if you don't believe it exists?

C'mon, I wanna hear the answer to this. How do you blame something if you don't believe it exists?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

19. I think, RA, we are hard-wired

to deal with that inconsistency. Maybe we blame what doesn't exist because we're angry that it doesn't exist?

[greyl]

15. Yeah,

too bad I'm pulling your leg. Hell, it might be true. I imagine it could be. What are your standards of proof?

It's interesting to me that you're hiding from the author's questions/arguments and choose to attack the author instead. Does that make you feel better?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

35. I don't think so. Kinda hard to blame somebody you think doesn't exist. nt

[RadiDem]

43. Are you SURE about that?

I found the site interesting, and went to their forums. One person asked who was behind the site, and the answer given was:

"the guy who created the site is Marshall Brain. He created the website How Stuff Works and several other sites and he's written a few books."

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=45d8b0f34ca507998ca7dc642f5e5e90&topic=2466.0

[bowens43]

16. The existence of god cannot be proved or disproved.

[Zhade]

46. I disagree - it can, in fact, be proved.

Of course, some believer somewhere will have to find and offer up actual, concrete, non-subjective, non-internal evidence for said gods first.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

17. Cool! We'll milk this for at least a week!

This list is right after "50 ways to leave your lover, huh?"

Now, the thing that I notice right away is that the maker of this list appears to me to be talking about the old dude in a nightgown god, and I personally haven't met him. The God I know is so infinite I can only get a glimmer. But here are my answers to the lists.

1. Try praying
DONE IT. WORKS FOR ME

2. Statistically analyze prayer
DONE IT. JUST MINE. WAY PAST COINCIDENCE.

3. Look at all historical gods
HUMAN ATTEMPTS TO PUT A FACE ON WHAT THEY KNOW IS THERE

4. Think about science
GOD IS SCIENCE

5. Read the Bible
AMAZING PIECE OF LITERATURE, ESPECIALLY THE NT

6. Ponder God's plan
I DON'T THINK HE HAS ONE. WE'RE ON OUR OWN DOWN HERE.

7. Understand religious delusion
I'VE SEEN DELUSION IN MANY FORMS AND UNDERSTAND IT. BOTH MY PARENTS HAD DEMENTIA, OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS HAVE HAD DELUSIONS. SO I UNDERSTAND THAT RELIGION, AS ONE OF OUR BIG MARKERS IN LIFE, CAN PRODUCE DELUSIONS. SO CAN MUSHROOMS.

8. Think about Near Death Experiences
I'VE READ VIRTUALLY ALL THE RESEARCH AND THERE REALLY ISN'T ANYTHING THAT SETTLES IT ONCE AND FOR ALL.

9. Understand ambiguity
I AM THE QUEEN OF AMBIGUITY.

10. Watch the offering plate
WE DON'T HAVE ONE IN CHURCH. WE MAIL IT IN.

11. Notice that there is no scientific evidence
SCIENCE IS NOT THE END ALL OF END ALLS. SCIENCE IS A TOOL. PERHAPS IT HAS NOT YET MATURED TO THE POINT WHERE IT CAN MEASURE THE SUPERNATURAL. IT IS YOUNG. GIVE IT TIME.

12. See the magic
NEVER SAW ANY MAGIC, REALLY.

13. Take a look at slavery
CHRISTIANS LED THE END OF SLAVERY IN THE US

14. Examine Jesus' miracles
HOW? I WASN'T THERE.

15. Examine Jesus' resurrection
WASN'T THERE.

16. Contemplate the contradictions
WAIT...I THOUGHT WE LIKED AMBIGUITY

17. Think about Leprechauns
I KNOW ONE.

18. Imagine heaven
I DON'T DO THAT VERY MUCH. I'M KIND OF PREOCCUPIED DOWN HERE.

19. Notice that you ignore Jesus
NO, ACTUALLY, I DON'T. I TALK TO HIM 24/7

20. Notice your church
NICE PLACE, NICE FOLKS

21. Understand Jesus' core message
IT'S A HARD ONE...LOVE OTHERS AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF

22. Count all the people God wants to murder
HE NEVER TOLD ME ABOUT THEM

23. Listen to the Doxology
JUST LIKE TALKING HEADS..'SAME AS IT EVER WAS'

24. Ask why religion causes so many problems
BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE BASICALLY SELFISH, LUSTFUL STINKERS AND WITHOUT RELIGION WOULD STILL BE SELFISH, LUSTFUL STINKERS.

25. Understand evolution and abiogenesis
EVOLUTION IS THE GREATEST MIRACLE OF ALL

26. Notice that the Bible's author is not "all-knowing"
I DON'T KNOW WHERE IN THE BIBLE IT SAYS THE BIBLE IS SUPPOSED TO BE ALL-KNOWING. IT IS A HISTORICAL, SOMETIMES MYTHICAL ACCOUNT OF A PERIOD OF TIME IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF A PEOPLE'S PERCEIVED COVENANT WITH THEIR GOD. THE NT IS THE STORY OF THE MESSIAH.

27. Think about life after death
I BELIEVE THERE IS ANOTHER REALM. WHETHER I GET TO WEAR MY JAMMIES OR NOT, I DON'T KNOW

28. Notice how many gods you reject
ALL GOD(S) ARE PART OF GOD. I DON'T REJECT ANY. I JUST DON'T WORSHIP THE MIDDLE MANAGEMENT.

29. Think about communion
BEST PART OF THE WEEK, SHARING A QUIET SYMBOLIC MEAL WITH FRIENDS

30. Examine God's sexism
GOD IS NOT SEXIST; CULTURE IS.

31. Understand that religion is superstition
THERE IS PLENTY OF SUPERSTITION IN RELIGION, FOR CERTAIN

32. Talk to a theologian
MY COUSIN BY MARRIAGE WAS A PRESIDING BISHOP OF A NORTH AMERICAN COUNTRY FOR 20 YEARS. NEVER MET A NICER MAN. NEVER UNDERSTOOD A WORD HE SAID.

33. Contemplate the crucifixion
I SAW THE PASSION.

34. Examine your health insurance policy
GOOD HMO.

35. Notice Jesus' myopia
DID HE WEAR GLASSES? SERIOUSLY, A CARPENTER FROM ISRAEL WAS NOT A GLOBAL INDIVIDUAL

36. Realize that God is impossible
THAT'S WHY HE IS GOD

37. Think about DNA
HUGE MIRACLE..AMAZING.

38. Contemplate the divorce rate among Christians
CONSIDER THE MARRIAGE RATE AMONG CHRISTIANS. MUCH HIGHER. SKEWED STATISTIC.

39. Realize that Jesus was a jerk
HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN, BUT SO'S MY HUSBAND; I STILL LOVE HIM.

40. Understand Christian motivations
NO SUCH THING

41. Flip a coin
STATISTICAL PROBABILITY..PART OF THE NATURAL UNIVERSE. COOL STUFF.

42. Listen when "God talks"
BELIEVE ME, I DO. WHEN I HAVEN'T, I HAVE PAID THE PRICE.

43. Realize that a "hidden God" is impossible
I AGREE. MY GOD SHINES OUT FROM ME.

44. Think about a Christian housewife
I WISH I COULD HAVE BEEN ONE, BUT I HAD TO GO TO WORK. IT IS MY BIGGEST REGRET IN LIFE.

45. Consider Noah's Ark
NICE STORY. KIDS LOVE IT.

46. Ponder Pascal's Wager
WEAK ARGUMENT. EXTERNAL.

47. Contemplate Creation
I DO; THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE IN GOD.

48. Compare prayer to a lucky horseshoe
NEVER HAD ONE. AT LEAST PRAYER ALLOWS YOU TO TALK TO YOURSELF AND PROCESS

49. Look at who speaks for God
LOOK AT THE BROKENNESS OF HUMANITY

50. Ask Jesus to appear
WHEN HE LEFT, HE SAID "I WILL SEND TO YOU A COMFORTER." THAT IS THE ONE I ASK TO APPEAR, AND WHEN I ASK, HE/SHE/IT SHOWS UP. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

[Common Sense Party]

18. Well said. I don't think the website author has a very firm grasp

on Christianity.

[greyl]

20. Nobody that's complained about it so far

has more than a cursory grasp of the arguments at the site, and their comments will recieve all due respect.

Can you clarify why you're passing judgement on the author please?

[greyl]

21. That's cute, but

it amounts to nothing more than "lala I can't hear you", doesn't it? Aren't you just trying to make the point that you don't care to read and consider the arguments at the site? Each proof has its own page, and I can't imagine you read them before coming up with those answers.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

22. No, I haven't read it all yet

and I'm not trying to be cute. But I am off this afternoon and I promise to read the whole thing, and if the contents will amend my answers, I'll change them.

Any that I have answered with humor, are ones that on the surface, are a bit frivolous..like the myopia one.

But let's slog through it and really deal with some of this stuff. Like I said, it will last a week. Maybe we should divide them up into separate posts??? That might be more workable.

Your comment about "lalala" does make me wonder if it is possible to truly have a dialogue because you just haven't lived my life, nor I yours. We're like the blindfolded men feeling the elephant, I think. But, by gosh, we'll give it a try and we'll do it with respect.

[greyl]

23. Frivolous humor pretty much equals cute, doesn't it?

"Your comment about "lalala" does make me wonder if it is possible to truly have a dialogue because you just haven't lived my life, nor I yours."

Now, just who the hell has ever lived anyone elses life? I think that's a lousy reason to cast aspersions on efforts to have a meaningful and productive dialogue. Considering the preference for violence rather than dialogue amongst certain powers that be in the world today, it'd be extra sad if peaceful individuals didn't even try.
Of all the things in the world to not have faith about, why choose that?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

24. Whoa!

I'm not casting aspersions on anyone, just stating my feelings. And I was saying that her question was frivolous (but I haven't read the full version, admitedly, but to say Jesus was myopic is just kind of...well...I can't even think of a word.).

My point is this. I have experiences in my life that lead me to believe in God. These experiences, coupled with my own logic (might not be up to some other folks' standards but it works for me) have resulted in my belief. But I can't adequately explain these things to you because you kinda had to BE THERE. Just like YOU cannot explain to me, what circumstances in your life have led you to various decisions. At least not without writing a book, and even then a book is only words that try to describe. All our attempts to AGREE are going to come to naught, I'm afraid. Both of us have already made our minds up based on our own personal set of circumstances. But we can agree to disagree.

Again, without having read the whole thing, I just wonder how something like health insurance would relieve me of my beliefs. It is a fact that **it happens and as has been pointed out this week, our worthiness or lack of it appears to have no import. So I just don't see how health insurance has anything to do with God. I really look forward to reading that one!

I do think you are reading much too much hostility into my responses. It isn't one of my weaknesses, hostility. I have a whole host of ugliness, but that's not on the list.

jb

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. I have to agree with most of what Tallahassee Grannie said

It's not being "flippant" to give these kinds of answers to someone who is obviously an atheist missionary (she may not accept that definnition, but in fact, that's what she is if she is trying to win people over to her philosophy and view of the universe).

Aren't these the same kinds of answers that atheists on this board gleefully report giving to religious missionaries?

[greyl]

33. When I said "cute", I didn't mean "flippant".

Don't you think T-Grannie is cute?
I was making a positive statement about her reply before pointing out that it wasn't exactly responsive to the arguments at the site.

[neebob]

36. I see a couple of key differences:

(1) This "missionary" isn't knocking on your door and (2) the message is a true statement.

[shrike]

44. Thanks, Grannie

I especially liked number 24.

The only thing I find alarming about some of the more prominent atheists is the fact that some of them appear to want religion "eradicated." Mao tried that. We know how that turned out.
I also despair of those folks who seem to feel that if only religion were to be marginalized, the world would be a better place. Not so. We'd still be a bunch of selfish, greedy, violent people. Only, we'd be a selfish, greedy violent bunch who didn't believe in God.
Sometimes I think we all just don't want to face what we are: the evil that's in all of us, the bad what we do. Mankind itself is the virus; not religion, not nationalism, not philosophy -- this is what I think in my darkest thoughts.

[bloom]

30. I think that the "Proofs" would be better described as "considerations"

For example:

Proof #23 - Listen to the Doxology

The "Doxology" is a song sung in millions of Christian churches around the world every Sunday. It opens with this sentence:

Praise God from whom all blessings flow.
With that one sentence we can prove that God is imaginary, just like Santa Claus....

If God existed and handed out blessings as described in the Doxology, then the blessings would be spread uniformly among his believers.

Let us suppose that God is real and that all blessings actually do flow from him. If that is the case, then the utter unfairness with which he disperses his blessings is proof positive that God is ridiculous.

One answer to that could be that God created all of this (everything we have) - some people take more than their share. God doesn't stop people from being greedy. In fact - the literal, Christian (Augustinian) idea about "Adam and Eve" is that they fell, people are evil and they need help from the church (so that they are not assholes).

Church has had a role in redistribution - if people tithed, for instance, and then some was redistributed. Various churches have been better about that than others.

These days it has been the religious people in Iraq and such who have been doing more to distribute resources than anything that the gov't has been doing.

While it is easy to argue that it is actually people who are doing the redistributing - not God - the idea is that church people are agents - they are doing "God's will" and all. Of course they also do not claim to be perfect. And goods and services are not going to distribute their own selves.

The writer of the so-called proofs makes a lot of assumptions about people's concept of God - that most people around here would not have even if they believed in God. Of course that makes God easier to "dis-prove".


I don't know if you seriously think that a "proof" like this proves anything. :shrug: She brings up some points - but any serious proof would need more logic than this. She makes too many assumptions.

[greyl]

34. True, they aren't "proofs" in a strict mathematical sense,

nor in an empirical sense. Logically, the conclusions are fairly sound.

I think what you call assumptions by the author of people's concept of God are based on real analogs as expressed by some Christians.

Number 23 is a pretty fluffy argument.

[okasha]

31. Bloom's right. The person who came up with these "proofs"

has little to no understanding of Christianity and less of the Bible. Here's a bit from the one about Jesus' "myopia:"

To any rational person, these problems make it painfully obvious that Jesus was a normal human being. The fact that Jesus was a normal human being renders the entire New Testament of the Bible meaningless, and in the process shows us that the God of the Bible is completely imaginary.

Most non-Christian and many Christian theologians/historians are perfectly comfortable with the idea that Jesus was a "normal" human being in the sense that he was not miraculously born of a virgin. Many do not regard the resurrection as a bodily, literal experience either. The author of the "proofs" fails to make clear how Jesus' "normal" humanity renders the New Testament meaningless, since Jesus' teachings about social justice, ethics, human interaction with the divine, etc., are in no wise dependent upon his not being a "normal" human.

It is also a huge leap of illogic from there to the assertion that this "shows us that the God of the Bible is completely imaginary," given that the NT and the OT are not organically related to each other either in time--their composition spans 800-1000 years--or in common authorship. They weren't even brought together as one book until the fourth century CE. The claims of one can be said to impact the other only if it can be demonstrated that the two are inextricably linked and that they depend on each other for their meaning. (Now, there are some fundamentalists who do believe this, but that's another problem altogether.) Even if Jesus were shown never to have existed, that would have no effect on the Hebrew Bible or its understanding of Yahweh. It's entirely unclear why the author of the "proofs" should fail to think his way out of this particular paper bag, his being a "rational person" and all.

Which brings me to echo Granny. Someone has way too much time on his hands that would be better spent attempting to understand his subject before making magisterial pronouncements about it.

[neebob]

37. Don't most Christians believe

Jesus was God incarnate, or the son of God, and/or he led a sinless life? That's not exactly a normal person.

[okasha]

38. If you're talking about fundamentalists, yes.

If you're talking about the two-thirds to three-quarters of Christians who are not fundamentalists--they're all over the map. I was pretty clear about what I was referring to as "normal," and "normal" did not include being a deity or the biological offspring of a deity, or being born of a virgin.

[neebob]

39. Well, considering my upbringing,

it's entirely possible that I've been operating on a misconception all these years, but you'll need to prove to me that a majority of Christians believe Jesus was just a regular guy and not supernatural in one way or another. I just find that really hard to believe.

[okasha]

40. You seem to be operating on a misconception about what I said,

so you may well be operating on others as well.

I said:

Most non-Christian theologians believe that Jesus was a "normal" human.

Many Christian theologians also believe that Jesus was a "normal" human.

Virtually all fundamentalists (25-33% of Christians) do not see Jesus as a "normal" human.

The remaining 66-75% of Christians are all over the map on this, as they are on many other points of doctrine.

I did not say:

"A majority of Christians believe Jesus was just a regular guy and not supernatural in one way or another."

[neebob]

41. You're right

I did miss that you were talking about theologians/historians. But the website author is talking about Christians, and if most Christians believe Jesus was supernatural in one way or another, well, there ya go.

I don't know that Jesus ever existed, and if he did, he was most certainly a normal person. If a book says he was supernatural when it's obvious that he wasn't, for me, that book is out the window - along with the other book that preceded it. I wouldn't say either one is meaningless, but they're both certainly suspect and not worth the time to try and discover any truth they may contain.

Of course I'm not someone who needs to be convinced that God is imaginary, so I'm less inclined to criticize how someone else arrived at that conclusion.

I am curious about the person who built this website and what issues would drive a talented writer to spend so much time on this instead of something else. I see a much more general lack of understanding of the audience. People believe what they want to, and talking down to them isn't likely to persuade anyone.

[okasha]

42. I think the author of the web site is probably very young,

both in years and as atheist. He's behaving very much with the zeal of a new convert, including his urge to go out and evangelize on the street, in the check-out line, wherever. His "issue" appears to be immaturity and the uncritical enthusiasm that goes with it.

One of three things is likely to happen to him: he may become a polemical hack like Humphreys of jesusneverexisted.com; he may boomerang in a couple years when his enthusiasm wears thin (or the expected ego-boo doesn't materialize) and end up as an equally zealous Hare Krishna or born-again Christian; or he may grow up, put less emotion and more thought into his views and settle down into a more considered philosophy, atheist or otherwise.

Meantime, his arguments are largely based in a misunderstanding of his material, and many of them boil down to "because I said so." There's a lot of "any rational person would agree...." and "you'd have to be insane to believe...." mixed in with what he seems to think is textual analysis.

[Danger Mouse]

47. On second thought...

You make very good points. I had wondered how I would respond to the 'proofs'...their rather antagonistic tone did put me off quite a bit.
As I noted on another post...there's a lot of redundancy, and to reach '50' it seems the author really had to pull some of them out of his ass.
Some good points are made, but it's hard to take them at face value when the person making the points is being a dick to you.